celestial mechanics: accretion disk? why not spheres?

[sear]

Even high school physics text books assert that solar systems are formed from accretion disks.

But don't the laws of thermodynamics (entropy) suggest that the sphere is the lower ordered state?

What causes randomly scattered debris congesting a region of space stratify out into a disk? And then into a solar system?

If the sun is mostly hydrogen, why does the lightest element end up at the center of the solar system (CG), and the denser rock-like bodies (planets and moons) in the hydrogen's orbit?

And why do moons and planets tend to orbit in the accretion disk plane?

[Newly demoted*] Pluto seems to orbit about 17 degrees out of plane.
Some of the comets may have even more eccentric orbits.
But the fashion, the trend seems to be, stick to the ecliptic.

Why?
Isn't this a contradiction to the law of entropy?

* Don't give up on Pluto yet. The rules require a 5 year lag (between one change of status and another) before action can be taken. But Pluto's recent demotion to non-planet status was somewhat of a palace coup d’état. The broader astronomy community seems to intend to restore Pluto's planet status at the earliest opportunity.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Here is an interesting quote for you to think about, which tackles the formation of accretion disks:

If one star in a binary system is a compact object such as a very dense white dwarf star and the other star is a normal star like the Sun, the white dwarf can pull gas off the normal star and accrete it onto itself. Since the stars are revolving around each other and since angular momentum must be conserved, this gas cannot fall directly onto the white dwarf, but instead spirals in to the white dwarf much like water spirals down a bathtub drain. Thus material flowing from the normal star to the white dwarf piles up in a dense spinning accretion disk orbiting the white dwarf. The gas in the disk becomes very hot due to friction and being tugged on by the white dwarf and eventually loses angular momentum and falls onto the white dwarf. Since this hot gas is being accelerated it radiates energy, usually in x rays which astronomers detect and use to identify and study accretion disks

[sear]

That's probably one piece to the puzzle Ryan.

Thanks.

[hsandman]

Good topic Sear. Beats talking about 2 stroke engines. :-P It is because the "Spin"(npi) is the force behind everything observable. It comes about because of how the reality we inhabit comes into existance.

The basic idea behind spining motion is to do with how matter relates to other matter in relative space ie observable 4 D Universe that creates spirals based on . This is some-thing I have been thinking and reading about for a while myself. I will post a long reply when it's ready. :-D

Simple facts.

Pythagoras and Dimensions
Fact 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOgn-pijSIM

[sear]

youtube.com/ ...

Could hit the nail on the head hs. I'll never know.
I'm on dial-up. I'm basically limited to text, and small still graphics.

[brokenhead]

That's probably one piece to the puzzle Ryan.

Thanks.

Another way to say it, sear, is that angular momentum, which must be conserved just like linear momentum, is a vector quantity. It has magnitude (strength) and direction. Both the magnitude and the direction are conserved. This is what keeps a moving bicycle, for example, from falling. Note that the planes of the accretion disks are not coincidental - that is, there is no prefered plane for all the spirals. The plane is determined by the axis of rotation of the massive body at the center.

[hsandman]

Even high school physics text books assert that solar systems are formed from accretion disks.

<"Even broken clock is right, twice a day." Good quote. :-)>

But don't the laws of thermodynamics (entropy) suggest that the sphere is the lower ordered state?

<Yes, that is the reason that it <"the debris"> settles in the final configuration as a round star or a planet.

What causes randomly scattered debris congesting a region of space stratify out into a disk?

And then into a solar system?

<Now that is the root of the question as the Newtonian/Einsteinian physics as thought in the schools for people give the same answer as religion . Which is:
“Because.” Because positive attracts negative. Water tries to find a state of equilibrium, by running down to its lowest state relative to itself. Behold the magic of Gravity! The unexplained magic “force” is at play here, Magically Pulling at matter with billion billions of invisible magic tentacles. What a load of BS!

If the sun is mostly hydrogen, why does the lightest element end up at the center of the solar system (CG), and the denser rock-like bodies (planets and moons) in the hydrogen's orbit?

<Right, how come you see the same effect in centrifugal models? The gravity as explained in the school physics course is bs. >

And why do moons and planets tend to orbit in the accretion disk plane?

<Anything that is spinning tends to flatten out. There has to be a explanation that explains all this, right?
Have you heard of Expansion theory?

The Hubble universe constantly expands (all zones or spheres, some of which might be as small as the Planck length, do not necessarily contract after expansion) and inrushing energy feeds the spinning fractal. As in the vortex of a tornado, the spin draws in surrounding energy leaving a depleted zone around the vortex-sphere. This third vacuum, a surface-vacuum, attracts other fractals, while the constantly expanding (Hubble expansion) spinning surface repels them. The dynamic thus created between repulsive and attractive forces is the dynamic tension that underlies all matter. At this pre-particle, fractal level no thing exists that can interfere with the expanding and spinning vortex. Stability and permanence and inertia are created by Hubble expansion. Dark matter, and its theoretic “extra” gravity, may not be matter – but the temporary attenuation of the every part of the field.
http://www.noelhodson.com/index_files/u ... c188415868


(Videos)

Pythagoras and Dimensions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOgn-pijSIM

Also watch this video. The Uncle Sam is a little "hysterical", but don't pay that too much attention. Understand the message, not his conclusions. And it's not "Magic".

Fibonacci Curves <in the observable universe>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiMmWnHpFyU

Pythagoras and Dimensions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOgn-pijSIM

Amazing Liquid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq3ZjY0Uf-g

Freaky Liquid Metal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX6clRC21vo



I have to agree that seems like we are rushing through a fractal based on the Fibonacci number which seems to be the key to this fractal pattern. The Fibonacci seems to be not the first to discover it though and from the old ruins of Mayan culture we can see that they had this knowledge, since it is the key to amplifying the sound. You can observe that here.
-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZqDaaOqNvQ

So the knowledge was there, and these people seems to have used it to build the great monuments all over the world, from giant stones with these techniques, as you can see here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRDzFROMx0
About This Video
Wally Wallington has demonstrated that he can l...
(more)
Added: October 15, 2006
Wally Wallington has demonstrated that he can lift a Stonehenge-sized pillar weighing 22,000 lbs and moved a barn over 300 ft. What makes this so special is that he does it using only himself, gravity, and his incredible ingenuity.



Further alternative reading. :-) http://www.fractaluniverse.org/galaxy_formation.php

4th dimmention :-) http://www.miqel.com/images_1/myspace/l ... large2.jpg

PS.
Pi - Number Theory Discussion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFPESKPXBWs

Toward 2012 - Postmodern Times
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7NOOBaZ

[sear]

"there is no prefered plane for all the spirals. The plane is determined by the axis of rotation of the massive body at the center." broke

Just to clarify here broke, I gather you mean there isn't one universal standard among all such disk formations in the cosmos. Instead, there is one optimal for each.

PS, perhaps you know the answer, I don't.
a) Does our sun rotate on axis?
b) If so, is its axis of rotation also the axis of orbit for most planets in our solar system?

One more for now:
I think one of the planets, one of the gas giants I think, rotates on an axis which is nearly parallel with the ecliptic.
I'm not sure if it's Neptune or not.
In any case, regardless of its axis of rotation, I believe its moons orbit closer to the ecliptic than in a plane perpendicular to its planetary rotation axis.

hs,
Thanks for the YouTube links. Problem is, I'm on dial-up. So I can't do YouTube.

[Remo]

An accretion disk is a flattened sphere, its flattened due to rotating velocity the outwards force if you will.

look at the planets the faster they spin on their axis the more they flatten out in shape (angular momentum) our galaxy is also this shape for the same reason spinning on its axis at a velocity of about 155 miles/sec.

As for why the denser rock planets are around the hydrogen sun, the primordial atom is the hydrogen atom, at the formation of the solar system most of the atoms were hydrogen, once enough hydrogen had globbed together at the center of the accretion disk in our solar system due to gravity, a fusion reaction started(critical mass), this reaction would slowly fuse atoms into new more complex atomic structures that were thrown out into space on solar winds and flares (still happening to this day) where these heavier elements eventually collected together and formed the inner planets from this material.

Its interesting to note that the really heavy stuff, gold uranium mercury cannot be formed within the fusion reaction within a star like our own, it could only come from the incredible reaction that occurs inside a supernova, the fact that these elements are present in our solar system points to the likelihood that our solar system was formed from the remnants of another much larger star that blew up.

@sear
Venus is the planet that spins in the opposite direction, its "day" or time to complete a full rotation is longer than the time it takes Venus to orbit the sun

a- yes every 27 days
b- yes

[Tomas]

.


Did NASA Accidentally "Nuke" Jupiter?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/NukingJupiter.html


.

[Remo]

very interesting read, wouldnt be surprised if it was true...