Anna Moore looks at the history of Prozac

[Tomas]

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Eternal sunshine

It's sold as happiness in a blister pack - a cure-all that has changed the way we think about wellbeing. As Prozac reaches its 20th birthday, Anna Moore presents 20 things you need to know about the most widely used antidepressant in the world
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine ... 96,00.html


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[Iolaus]

If you want the whole scoop on this crap, go to http://www.breggin.com

Massive corrupton and greed running the whole medico-pharmaceutical complex!

[Katy]

It has been my experience that SSRIs are way overprescribed. Every doctor I've gone to since I was 11 has put me on them and every single time I wind up suicidal or so depressed I stop leaving my room, yet none of them listen to me when I refuse. My current doctor has put me on three of them, including one I'd already tried to kill myself on, at various times. Each time telling me "but this one's different"

Seems like a viscious cycle. A few people report they are miricles and doctors start prescribing them like candy and refuse to acknowledge that they may not be perfect... or even good.


THAT SAID: I think it is vitally important to remember that we shouldn't judge psychiatry as a whole based on this antidepressant fad.

[Iolaus]

Gee Katy, I am dumbfounded. Do you know how to say no? You speak as though these doctors have some sort of authority beyond making a suggestion.

[DHodges]

My current doctor has put me on three of them, including one I'd already tried to kill myself on, at various times. Each time telling me "but this one's different"

From what I've heard, it's not unusual to go through several before finding one that works for your particular body chemistry. Doctors don't really understand how these work and can't predict which will work for you; they can just try them and see. And there is no guarantee that there even is one that will work for you.

I was lucky. Prozac has worked really well for me; I've been on it for about the last six years. For some people, apparently, it's terrible or does nothing.

from here:

Ron Winchel, a Manhattan-based psychopharmacologist, says that the psychiatric community is only now coming to realize the potentially disastrous effect of treating bipolar people with SSRIs—and that bipolarity isn’t the easiest thing to recognize. “SSRIs are almost benign, except to the large number of people who at first look to doctors as if they have a unipolar depression, but who in reality have a variant form of one of the bipolar disorders,” he says. “For them, exposure to any antidepressant can actually make them worse, because if you give someone who is potentially bipolar an antidepressant, you can engender more of the ‘high’ side of their disorder. That leads to more depression, because you have accelerated the cycle.”

[Trevor Salyzyn]

I'd rather a culture of overprescription that is open about depressive illness than one where illness remains in the closet and goes untreated.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

From the article D linked:

‘Is it going to be good for my brain?’ There’s a couple examples—like lithium—where a drug has actually been shown to encourage the growth of healthy brain cells in regions of the brain where there is diminished activity in people with mood syndromes. And we do believe that it is bad for the brain to experience spurts of anxiety, because they are associated with secretions of chemicals that are actually toxic for the brain. So the possibility that some of these drugs that we’re using in psychiatry have neuroprotective effects is real.”

Diabetics didn't always have the option of taking insulin or glucophage, they used to just have parts chopped off and die very young. Just because science made medication does not mean that it's bad.
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[Katy]

Yeah, Iolaus - I'm not on any now, though my doctor tries to put me on one every time I see him. Now he claims they're doing other things "this will help you sleep (ohbtw, it's also an antidepressant...)" "uhm No."

Anyway, as far as adults are concerned, I'd rather have overprescription and the ability to say "something is wrong" - but I really worry about drugging kids so much. This is more the case for ritalin (and other ADD drugs) than antidepressants though it does apply to both. A couple years ago a psychology professor asked us to raise our hands if we'd been on ritalin - most of the class had. And admittedly there's self-selection bias at work, but seriously. Are that many of our kids sick? Or is something wrong with us in what we expect of kids?

[Tomas]

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-tomas blabs-
[comments interspersed]
Some humor, some serious, and i haven't time to 'keep up' with all the threads on Worldly, Genius, and Science Stuff. I have my favorite posters (some of you'all) and the rest of you are merely pixels on the screen.


-katy says-

My current doctor has put me on three of them, including one I'd already tried to kill myself on, at various times. Each time telling me "but this one's different"

-tomas-
In all seriousness, have you considered reading (and researching) all the adverse reaction warnings printed on the labels before you pop these chemicals into your mouth?

Furthermore, there seems to be a nominal very few "reliable folk" on Genius Forums, who'd help research these Mother's Little Helper drugs to get you through your busy day... And I'm not referring to those who currently pop the pill.

I've met (and discussed with) too many people that rely on daily doses to keep their equilibrium "in order".


-d*hodges writes-
From what I've heard, it's not unusual to go through several before finding one that works for your particular body chemistry.



-tomas-
It's a bit like wine-tasting, Bud or Bud Light, Jack and Coke, or Southern Comfort and Dr. Pepper. Whatever gets you through the night...



-d*hodges-
Doctors don't really understand how these work and can't predict which will work for you; they can just try them and see.


-tomas-
Yes, when a kid (1960s), my family travelled to The Cameroon and met many a witch doctor (shaman) and there was no end to mind-control even amongst the tribal peoples. Control the food supply (what goes in mouth) and you control the entire populace.



-d*hodges-
And there is no guarantee that there even is one that will work for you.



-tomas-
Right. No happy face here on Planet Earth.



-d*hodges-
I was lucky. Prozac has worked really well for me;



-tomas-
Did you read the Anna Moore article?



-d*hodges-
I've been on it for about the last six years.



-tomas-
Chewy chewy, Tootsie Roll, lasts a long time, lasts a long time... get some!



-d*hodges-
For some people, apparently, it's terrible or does nothing.



-tomas-
This dude, Charlie, has bouts of fist-a-cuffs with his girlfriends. The cops let him go because his doctor says he's on "meds" and is showing "improvement" in his violent episodes and is currently waning... Yup.

He's one of several to comment on - at a later date. :-(



Tomas (the tank)
VietNam veteran - 1971







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[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Tomas,

Are you equally opposed to people taking medication for their heart, lungs, or any other body part as you are opposed to people taking medication for their brain? It would seem to me that it would be just as important to have one's brain in good working order as any other vital organ. Granted there are risks to consider with everything, so one should be sure it is necessary and the benefits outweigh the detriments.
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[Katy]

Yep, I always read the adverse reactions, side effect information, and even online research. However, a 1% chance of a bad reaction compared to even as low as 50% chance of not hallucinating. Trade off is worth it. Simple fact is that I would either be dead or in an institution somewhere without the medication I take.

Here is wiki's list of adverse reactions for a heart medication:

Adverse drug reactions (ADRs) associated with the use of beta blockers include: nausea, diarrhoea, bronchospasm, dyspnoea, cold extremities, exacerbation of Raynaud's syndrome, bradycardia, hypotension, heart failure, heart block, fatigue, dizziness, abnormal vision, decreased concentration, hallucinations, insomnia, nightmares, depression, sexual dysfunction, erectile dysfunction and/or alteration of glucose and lipid metabolism. Mixed α1/β-antagonist therapy is also commonly associated with orthostatic hypotension. Carvedilol therapy is commonly associated with oedema. (Rossi, 2006)

Central nervous system (CNS) adverse effects (hallucinations, insomnia, nightmares, depression) are more common in agents with greater lipid solubility, which are able to cross the blood-brain barrier into the CNS. Similarly, CNS adverse effects are less common in agents with greater aqueous solubility (listed below).

Adverse effects associated with β2-adrenergic receptor antagonist activity (bronchospasm, peripheral vasoconstriction, alteration of glucose and lipid metabolism) are less common with β1-selective (often termed "cardioselective") agents, however receptor selectivity diminishes at higher doses.

As opposed to the strongest drug I'm currently on

Common side effects include headaches, dizziness and insomnia. It has also caused major weight loss.[citation needed] In very rare cases, Lamotrigine has been known to cause the development of a dangerous rash called Stevens-Johnson syndrome (or SJS). The rash is more common in children, so this medication is often reserved for adults. There is also an increased incidence of this rash in patients who are currently on, or recently discontinued a valproates anti-convulsant drug, as these medications interact in such a way that the clearance of both is decreased and the effective dose of lamotrigine is increased. Muscle aches are another fairly common side effect, and there are occasional reports of dry mouth.

*points up*
What Elizabeth said

[Jamesh]

A couple years ago a psychology professor asked us to raise our hands if we'd been on ritalin - most of the class had. And admittedly there's self-selection bias at work, but seriously. Are that many of our kids sick? Or is something wrong with us in what we expect of kids?

Interesting, I wonder if what I said here applies

If you look at a lot of the most respected philosophers of the past, they tended to be "sensitive" people, namely people for whom the universe has more emotional effect upon, and they were caused to develop wisdom as a countermeasure to the suffering caused by being so sensitive.

To me psychology is one method of seeking answers to the "personal pains of reality", so therefore that most of the class had been on ritalin is of no surprise. ADD is caused by the body becoming overly sensitive to one's chemical intake relative to the environment - resulting in hyperactivity. I notice it can also be used for narcolepsy, which I guess is a situation where the body shuts down to recuperate after being overloaded.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Are that many of our kids sick? Or is something wrong with us in what we expect of kids?

It does seem that many people are substituting prescriptions for parenting.

To me psychology is one method of seeking answers to the "personal pains of reality"

Yes, but I think that too often the kid is given a prescription for the parent's pains of the reality of being a parent.
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[Jamesh]

Agree again.


(Instead of having an additional post when one agrees with a post, it would be nice if one could just add a Agree or Disagree symbol to the original post, which when highlighted gave the username)

[Iolaus]

Diabetics didn't always have the option of taking insulin or glucophage, they used to just have parts chopped off and die very young. Just because science made medication does not mean that it's bad.

Eliazbeth that was silly.

Anyway, as far as adults are concerned, I'd rather have overprescription and the ability to say "something is wrong" - but I really worry about drugging kids so much.

Well, we certainly got overprescription.

Are that many of our kids sick?

I think depression is largely a lifestyle disease, at least when it comes to such an absurdly large percentage of the population on meds. Partly, our school system is overly confining, partly exposure to television ruins brains, but most of all I think it is the dismal state of malnutrition in America.

Are you equally opposed to people taking medication for their heart, lungs, or any other body part as you are opposed to people taking medication for their brain? It would seem to me that it would be just as important to have one's brain in good working order as any other vital organ.

Well, Dr. Breggin says pretty much all these drugs are bad for the brain and impair function. Not sure about lithium, which incidentally is on the periodic table.

Anyway, Elizabeth, you sure have bought into the medical paradigm. Sigh. Its all about the drugs. It's all about money. It's all about advertising. All corruption. An FDA who considers their client to be, not the American public but the pharmaceutical companies who pay them. Little conflict of interest anyone? I heard a bill just passed forbidding Americans to get their drugs abroad, including Canada!! We are such fucking suckers here, I mean milk cows.

[Katy]

Lithium will destroy your kidneys. If it gets to a toxic level (which is actually relatively easy and has been known to happen simply by going from sea level up to a ski resort because it is affected by altitude) it can do all sorts of fun things from causing seizures to Parkinsons like symptoms.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Iolaus,

Yes there is greed and corruption in government, but that does not make all medicine bad. Yes, dietary and lifestyle changes can help, and for some people, that is all they really need is dietary and lifestyle changes, including a conscious attitude adjustment. That does not mean that in all cases, that is all that is needed. Furthermore, I counter your Dr. Breggin claims with Dr. Amen's claims - and Dr. Amen has the evidence to prove that in cases where nutrition and lifestyle changes are insufficient, adding the correct medicine for the correctly diagnosed problem results in actual restoration of brain function.

[DHodges]

Yes there is greed and corruption in government, but that does not make all medicine bad.

There seems to be a certain (Puritanical) predisposition to think that taking any drug is bad - and that there is a "natural" state that is somehow superior. This is seen with Prozac, in particular, because it is sometimes misrepresented as being a "happy pill."

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

that there is a "natural" state that is somehow superior.

Nature gave us enough brains to figure out what superior really is. That puritanical attitude is as inane as saying that the plague was superior. People in third world nations tend to be in a "natural" state, which means infested with worms and the like.

article on worms as a debilitating problem

[Iolaus]

Try this:

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/ ... 14587.aspx

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

From Iolaus' link on the dangers of drugging children:

despite the lack of any objective medical tests to verify such a diagnosis.

There are objective tests, but very few doctors actually use them. Dr. Amen pioneered the objective medical tests with SPECT imaging, and a few other doctors are picking up on that.

The comments at the end are sick though - referencing if the Creator wanted this He would have created Walgreens, and every other post saying "amen." Did the Creator create the computer any more than pharmaceuticals?

I definitely agree that teachers are not diagnosticians, though. A roommate took speech class, and said that several of her classmates who gave speeches on why they wanted to become a teacher started their speech with "I ain't no good in math, and I ain't no good in science, so's I's decides me to become a teacher." Disgusting.

[Katy]

Try this:

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/ ... 14587.aspx

A. Correlation =/=causation. Just because one kid who happened to be on ADHD drugs went batty doesn't mean kids on ADHD drugs go batty. Nor even that there's a higher prevalence, which invoking the highly emotional VT without other evidence is designed to try to do.

B. There are objective tests for ADHD. I know. I've taken several of them myself. Any site which states that there isn't is not merely suspect but flat out unreliable.