Asking myself, what does Otto Weininger mean here?

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Kelly Jones
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Asking myself, what does Otto Weininger mean here?

Post by Kelly Jones »

First one:

Otto Weininger's chapter on henids, including a description of the process of differentiating.



Chapter III

MALE AND FEMALE CONSCIOUSNESS


BEFORE proceeding to consider the main difference between the psychical life of the sexes, so far as the latter takes subjective and objective things as its contents, a few psychological soundings must be taken, and conceptions formulated. As the views and principles of prevailing systems of psychology have been formed without consideration of the subject of this book, it is not surprising that they contain little that I am able to use. At present there is no psychology but many psychologists, and it would really be a matter of caprice on my part to choose any particular school and attempt to apply its principles to my subject. I shall rather try to lay down a few useful principles on my own account.

The endeavours to reach a comprehensive and unifying conception of the whole psychical process by referring it to a single principle have been particularly evident in the relations between perceptions and sensations suggested by different psychologists.

Herbart, for instance, derived the sensations from elementary ideas, whilst Horwicz supposed them to come from perceptions. Most modern psychologists have insisted that such monistic attempts must be fruitless. None the less there was some truth in the view.

To discover this truth, however, it is necessary to make a distinction that has been overlooked by modern workers. We must distinguish between the perceiving of a perception, feeling of a sensation, thinking a thought from the later repetitions of the process in which recognition plays a part. In many cases this distinction is of fundamental importance.

Every simple, clear, plastic perception and every distinct idea, before it could be put into words, passes through a stage (which may indeed be very short) of indistinctness. So also in the case of association; for a longer or shorter time before the elements about to be grouped have actually come together, there is a sort of vague, generalised expectation or presentiment of association. Leibnitz, in particular, has worked at kindred processes, and I believe them to underlie the attempts of Herbart and Horwicz.

The common acceptance of pleasure and pain as the fundamental sensations, even with Wundt's addition of the sensations of tension and relaxation, of rest and stimulation, makes the division of psychical phenomena into sensations and perceptions too narrow for due treatment of the vague preliminary stages to which I have referred. I shall go back therefore to the widest classification of psychical phenomena that I know of, that of Avenarius into “elements” and “characters.” The word “character” in this connection, of course) has nothing to do with the subject of characterology.

Avenarius added to the difficulty of applying his theories by his use of a practically new terminology (which is certainly most striking and indispensable for some of the new views he expounded). But what stands most in the way of accepting some of his conclusions is his desire to derive his psychology from the physiology of the brain, a physiology which he evolved himself out of his inner consciousness with only a slight general acquaintance with actual biological facts. The psychological, or second part of his “Critique of Pure Experience,” was really the source from which he derived the first or physiological part, with the result that the latter appears to its readers as an account of some discovery in Atlantis. Because of these difficulties I shall give here a short account of the system of Avenarius, as I find it useful for my thesis.

An “Element” in the sense of Avenarius represents what the usual psychology terms a perception, or the content of a perception, what Schopenhauer called a presentation, what in England is called an “impression” or “idea,” the “thing,” “fact,” or “object” of ordinary language; and the word is used independently of the presence or absence of a special sense-organ stimulation—a most important and novel addition. In the sense of Avenarius, and for our purpose, it is a matter of indifference to the terminology how far what is called “analysis” takes place, the whole tree may be taken as the “element,” or each single leaf, or each hair, or (where most people would stop), the colours, sizes, weights, temperatures, resistances, and so forth. Still, the analysis may go yet further, and the colour of the leaf may be taken as merely the resultant of its quality, intensity, luminosity, and so forth, these being the elements. Or we may go still further and take modern ultimate conceptions reaching units incapable of sub-division.

In the sense of Avenarius, then, elements are such ideas as “green,” “blue,” “cold,” “warm,” “soft,” “hard,” “sweet,” “bitter,” and their “character” is the particular kind of quality with which they appear, not merely their pleasantness or unpleasantness, but also such modes of presentation as “surprising,” “expected,” “novel,” “indifferent,” “recognised,” “known,” “actual,” “doubtful,” categories which Avenarius first recognised as being psychological. For instance, what I guess, believe, or know is an “element”; the fact that I guess it, not believe it or know it, is the “character” in which it presents itself psychologically (not logically).

Now there is a stage in mental activity in which this sub-division of psychical phenomena cannot be made, which is too early for it. All “elements” at their first appearance are merged with the floating background, the whole being vaguely tinged by “character.” To follow my meaning, think of what takes place, when for the first time at a distance one sees something in the landscape, such as a shrub or a heap of wood, at the moment when one docs not yet know what “it” is.

At this moment “element” and “character” are absolutely indistinguishable (they are always inseparable as Petzoldt ingeniously pointed out), so improving the original statement of Avenarius.

In a dense crowd I perceive, for instance, a face which attracts me across the swaying mass by its expression. I have no idea what the face is like, and should be quite unable to describe it or give an idea of it; but it has appealed to me in the most disturbing manner, and I find myself asking with keen curiosity, “Where have I seen that face before?”

A man may see the head of a woman for a moment, and this may make a very strong impression on him, and yet he may be unable to say exactly what he has seen, or, for instance, be able to remember the colour of her hair. The retina must be exposed to the object sufficiently long, if only a fraction of a second, for a photographic impression to be made.

If one looks at any object from a considerable distance one has at first only the vaguest impression of its outlines; and as one comes nearer and sees the details more clearly, lively sensations, at first lost in the general mass, are received. Think, for instance, of the first general impression of, say, the sphenoid bone disarticulated from a skull, or of many pictures seen a little too closely or a little too far away. I myself have a remembrance of having had strong impressions from sonatas of Beethoven before I knew anything of the musical notes. Avenarius and Petzoldt have overlooked the fact that the coming into consciousness of the elements is accompanied by a kind of secretion of characterisation.

Some of the simple experiments of physiological psychology illustrate the point to which I have been referring. If one stays in a dark room until the eye has adapted itself to the absence of light, and then for a second subjects oneself to a ray of coloured light, a sensation of illumination will be received, although it is impossible to recognise the quality of the illumination; something has been perceived, but what the something is cannot be apprehended unless the stimulation lasts a definite time.

In the same way every scientific discovery, every technical invention, every artistic creation passes through a preliminary phase of indistinctness. The process is similar to the series of impressions that would be got as a statue was gradually unwrapped from a series of swathings. The same kind of sequence occurs, although, perhaps, in a very brief space of time, when one is trying to recall a piece of music. Every thought is preceded by a kind of half-thought, a condition in which vague geometrical figures, shifting masks, a swaying and indistinct background hover in the mind. The beginning and the end of the whole process, which I may term “clarification,” are what take place when a short-sighted person proceeds to look through properly adapted lenses.

Just as this process occurs in the life of the individual (and he, indeed, may die long before it is complete), so it occurs in history. Definite scientific conceptions are preceded by anticipations. The process of clarification is spread over many generations. There were ancient and modern vague anticipations of the theory of Darwin and Lamarck, anticipations which we are now apt to overvalue. Mayer and Helmholz had their predecessors, and Goethe and Leonardo da Vinci, perhaps two of the most many-sided intellects known to us, anticipated in a vague way many of the conclusions of modern science. The whole history of thought is a continuous “clarification,” a more and more accurate description or realisation of details. The enormous number of stages between light and darkness, the minute gradations of detail that follow each other in the development of thought can be realised best if one follows historically some complicated modern piece of knowledge, such as, for instance, the theory of elliptical functions.

The process of clarification may be reversed, and the act of forgetting is such a reversal. This may take a considerable time, and is usually noticed only by accident at some point or other of its course. The process is similar to the gradual obliteration of well-made roads, for the maintenance of which no provision has been made. The faint anticipations of a thought are very like the faint recollections of it, and the latter gradually become blurred as in the case of a neglected road over the boundaries of which animals stray, slowly obliterating it. In this connection a practical rule for memorising, discovered and applied by a friend of mine, is interesting. It generally happens that if one wants to learn, say, a piece of music, or a section from the history of philosophy, one has to go over parts of it again and again. The problem was, how long should the intervals be between these successive attempts to commit to memory? The answer was that they should not be so long as to make it possible to take a fresh interest in the subject again, to be interested and curious about it. If the interval has produced that state of mind, then the process of clarification must begin from the beginning again. The rather popular physiological theory of Sigismund Exner as to the formation of “paths” in the nervous system may perhaps be taken as a physical parallel of the process of clarification. According to the theory, the nerves, or rather the fibrils, make paths easy for the stimulations to travel along, if these stimulations last sufficiently long or are repeated sufficiently often. So also in the case of forgetting; what happens is that these paths or processes of the nerve-cells atrophy from disuse. Avenarius would have explained the above processes by his theory of the articulation of the fibres of the brain, but his physical doctrine was rather too crude and too simple for application to psycho-physics. None the less his conception of articulation or jointing is both convenient and appropriate in its application to the process of clarification, and I shall employ it in that connection.

The process of clarification must be traced thoroughly in order to realise its importance, but for the moment, it is important to consider only the initial stage. The distinction of Avenarius between “element” and “character,” which later on will become evident in a process of clarification, is not applicable to the very earliest moments of the process. It is necessary to coin a name for those minds to which the duality of element and character becomes appreciable at no stage in the process. I propose for psychical data at the earliest stage of their existence the word Henid (from the Greek, because in them it is impossible to distinguish perception and sensation as two analytically separable factors, and because, therefore, there is no trace of duality in them).

Naturally the “henid” is an abstract conception and may not occur in the absolute form. How often psychical data in human beings actually stand at the absolute extreme of undifferentiation is uncertain and unimportant; but the theory does not need to concern itself with the possibility of such an extreme. A common example from what has happened to all of us may serve to illustrate what a henid is. I may have a definite wish to say something particular, and then something distracts me, and the “it” I wanted to say or think has gone. Later on, by some process of association, the “it” is quite suddenly reproduced, and I know at once that it was what was on my tongue, but, so to speak, in a more perfect stage of development.

I fear lest some one may expect me to describe exactly what I mean by “henid.” The wish can come only from a misconception. The very idea of a henid forbids its description; it is merely a something. Later on identification will come with the complete articulation of the contents of the henid; but the henid is not the whole of this detailed content, but is distinguished from it by a lower grade of consciousness, by an absence of, so to speak, relief, by a blending of the die and the impression, by the absence of a central point in the field of vision.

And so one cannot describe particular henids; one can only be conscious of their existence.

None the less henids are things as vital as elements and characters. Each henid is an individual and can be distinguished from other henids. Later on I shall show that probably the mental data of early childhood (certainly of the first fourteen months) are all henids, although perhaps not in the absolute sense. Throughout childhood these data do not reach far from the henid stage; in adults there is always a certain process of development going on. Probably the perceptions of some plants and animals are henids. In the case of mankind the development from the henid to the completely differentiated perception and idea is always possible, although such an ideal condition may seldom be attained. Whilst expression in words is impossible in the case of the absolute henid, as words imply articulated thoughts, there are also in the highest stages of the intellect possible to man some things still unclarified and, therefore, unspeakable.

The theory of henids will help in the old quarrel between the spheres of perception and sensation, and will replace by a developmental conception the ideas of element and character which Avenarius and Petzoldt deduced from the process of clarification. It is only when the elements become distinct that they can be distinguished from the characters. Man is disposed to humours and sentimentalities only so long as the contours of his ideas are vague; when he sees things in the light instead of the dark his process of thinking will become different.

Now what is the relation between the investigation I have been making and the psychology of the sexes? What is the distinction between the male and the female (and to reach this has been the object of my digression) in the process of clarification?

Here is my answer:

The male has the same psychical data as the female, but in a more articulated form; where she thinks more or less in henids, he thinks in more or less clear and detailed presentations in which the elements are distinct from the tones of feeling. With the woman, thinking and feeling are identical, for man they are in opposition. The woman has many of her mental experiences as henids, whilst in man these have passed through a process of clarification. Woman is sentimental, and knows emotion but not mental excitement.

The greater articulation of the mental data in man is reflected in the more marked character of his body and face, as compared with the roundness and vagueness of the woman. In the same connection it is to be remembered that, notwithstanding the popular belief, the senses of the male are much more acute than those of the woman.

The only exception is the sense of touch, an exception of great interest to which I shall refer later. It has been established, moreover, that the sensibility to pain is much more acute in man, and we have now learned to distinguish between that and the tactile sensations.

A weaker sensibility is likely to retard the passage of mental data through the process of clarification, although we cannot quite take it for granted that it must be so. Perhaps a more trustworthy proof of the less degree of articulation in the mental data of the woman may be drawn from consideration of the greater decision in the judgments made by men, although indeed it may be the case that this distinction rests on a deeper basis. It is certainly the case that whilst we are still near the henid stage we know much more certainly what a thing is not than what it is. What Mach has called instinctive experience depends on henids. While we are near the henid stage we think round about a subject, correct ourselves at each new attempt, and say that that was not yet the right word. Naturally that condition implies uncertainty and indecision in judgment. Judgment comes towards the end of the process of clarification; the act of judgment is in itself a departure from the henid stage.

The most decisive proof for the correctness of the view that attributes henids to woman and differentiated thoughts to man, and that sees in this a fundamental sexual distinction, lies in the fact that wherever a new judgment is to be made, (not merely something already settled to be put into proverbial form) it is always the case that the female expects from man the clarification of her data, the interpretation of her henids. It is almost a tertiary sexual character of the male, and certainly it acts on the female as such, that she expects from him the interpretation and illumination of her thoughts. It is from this reason that so many girls say that they could only marry, or, at least, only love a man who was cleverer than themselves; that they would be repelled by a man who said that all they thought was right, and did not know better than they did. In short, the woman makes it a criterion of manliness that the man should be superior to herself mentally, that she should be influenced and dominated by the man; and this in itself is enough to ridicule all ideas of sexual equality.

The male lives consciously, the female lives unconsciously. This is certainly the necessary conclusion for the extreme cases. The woman receives her consciousness from the man; the function to bring into consciousness what was outside it is a sexual function of the typical man with regard to the typical woman, and is a necessary part of his ideal completeness.

[edit: formatting and 2 spelling errors]
Last edited by Kelly Jones on Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nordicvs
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Re: Asking myself, what does Otto Weininger mean here?

Post by Nordicvs »

I asked myself this, then tried to answered myself.

I'm not 100% certain what he means (exactly in every detail), but this relates to what we were discussing in the other thread. (Many things didn't "click" for me the first time I read this chapter; had to read it a few times before I could begin to get my head around 'henids.')

Oversimplified---sensory input vs perception, leading to realization (the conscious process of clarification).

[It's unfortunate that no one has continued his work---for I view it as a beginning to understanding the character of the sexes, not the end.

This seems to have changed over the last century: "It is from this reason that so many girls say that they could only marry, or, at least, only love a man who was cleverer than themselves; that they would be repelled by a man who said that all they thought was right, and did not know better than they did. In short, the woman makes it a criterion of manliness that the man should be superior to herself mentally, that she should be influenced and dominated by the man; and this in itself is enough to ridicule all ideas of sexual equality."

Today, there is disgust in women who are not told they are always right (in over half of my 25 or so relationships, there'd have to a spoken or alluded-to agreement, which provided the main condition to the success or failure of the relationship, that she was 'always right'). However, the staggering smugness of females collectively (what I call 'female supremacy') doesn't necessaily mean they are not seeking one cleverer than themselves---women seem no more intelligent as a gender since Weininger's day (it seems less intelligent) but much, much more arrogant. Essentially, they want recognition, endless flattery, and truckloads of respect for being stupider. This implies that men need to "act dumb"---but not be dumb---with them.

Perhaps it has not changed much, or at all---going by how crappy female-male relationships have become over the last thirty years, a woman may get into something with a man who's obviously not as bright as she is, but she doesn't respect him (and therefore can't "love" him).

Anyway, men have gotten so (much more) feminine over the last hundred years, it's no wonder why many people fail to see much of a difference between genders anymore (being semi-conscious, as well, would make this even more difficult); plus, there's too much information (too much of everything), turning humanity into a big prosaic blob of blandness; and political correctness, and those who enforce it, would not allow another to continue Weininger's work in anything but an anti-male context, which wouldn't be continuing it at all.

/irrelevant rambling.]
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Henids are the “thing” at the first stage of the process of clarification of that thing.

They are a something in which there is no distinction between sensation and perception but rather where the two exist in some sort of bled-together, indistinguishable fashion.

“Judgment comes towards the end of the process of clarification; the act of judgment is in itself a departure from the henid stage.”

Kelly, you are not really asking a question. What is it you want to know, exactly?

Maybe indicating a particular part of the text might help?

.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Asking myself, what does Otto Weininger mean here?

Post by Kelly Jones »

When will i get off this computer? ;)

Nordicvs wrote:I'm not 100% certain what he means (exactly in every detail), but this relates to what we were discussing in the other thread.
Too right it does.

(Many things didn't "click" for me the first time I read this chapter; had to read it a few times before I could begin to get my head around 'henids.')
Illustrating exactly what Weininger was defining as the process of clarification....

And the greater one's consciousness has developed, the more clearly one "sees" henids.

Oversimplified---sensory input vs perception, leading to realization (the conscious process of clarification).
It's worth studying over many times, to keep developing the concept of differentiation. Sex and Character will keep stimulating me for years.

Weininger is saying that the "old argument" between sensation and perception is not valid. Both appear in their initial stage of vagueness as henids, combining both element and character.


It's unfortunate that no one has continued his work---for I view it as a beginning to understanding the character of the sexes, not the end.
Have you read Sex and Character, the book this chapter comes from, in full?

This seems to have changed over the last century: "It is from this reason that so many girls say that they could only marry, or, at least, only love a man who was cleverer than themselves;"

This implies that men need to "act dumb"---but not be dumb---with them.
So, really, as you say, it hasn't changed at all. The only difference is that women have fallen for the notion that they are equal to men intellectually, and so are too embarrassed to admit that they are not as capable.


Anyway, men have gotten so (much more) feminine over the last hundred years, it's no wonder why many people fail to see much of a difference between genders anymore (being semi-conscious, as well, would make this even more difficult);
People fail to see a difference because they're more feminine.

plus, there's too much information (too much of everything), turning humanity into a big prosaic blob of blandness;
Yes and no. It's really the quality of content that's missing, since the quantity never actually changes.

"Too much happening" is really just "too much multi-tasking". As we all know, women are excellent at multi-tasking, but bad at obsessively deepening just one idea.

The intellectual frontier remains unknown and unchartered - and yet it is there for everyone.

and political correctness, and those who enforce it, would not allow another to continue Weininger's work in anything but an anti-male context, which wouldn't be continuing it at all.
Cliques form not so much on the basis of jargon but on values.



Later.
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Post by Kelly Jones »

Leyla Shen wrote:“Judgment comes towards the end of the process of clarification; the act of judgment is in itself a departure from the henid stage.”

Kelly, you are not really asking a question. What is it you want to know, exactly?

Maybe indicating a particular part of the text might help?
The whole text was the question. I'll just keep posting whatever of Weininger that i think is worth thinking about.

P.S. I'm not asking for answers from others, so much as continuing to clarify humanity's history of thought, which also includes my thoughts.


.
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Post by Nordicvs »

Kelly Jones wrote: When will i get off this computer? ;)
I'd say soon! But you're in the future (Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:43 am there vs. Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:23 pm here), so you probably already are off ;)
Kelly Jones wrote: Illustrating exactly what Weininger was defining as the process of clarification....

And the greater one's consciousness has developed, the more clearly one "sees" henids.
Exactly; after I finished typing that, I realized it was part of his subject. It's quite tricky how he goes about it with this bit---not that I'm complaining; being tricked to think is being forced to think, and that is very useful...only if one isn't completely aware of "being forced"---or challenged semi-consciously in order to raise consciousness---or else there is usually resistance, stubborn and spiteful attachment to ignorance.
Kelly Jones wrote: It's worth studying over many times, to keep developing the concept of differentiation. Sex and Character will keep stimulating me for years.
Indeed. Next to most of the stuff by Nietzsche, it's the most mentally engaging work I've come across.
Kelly Jones wrote:Weininger is saying that the "old argument" between sensation and perception is not valid. Both appear in their initial stage of vagueness as henids, combining both element and character.
Yes, and I could stand to go over it again---the last thing I'd want is to become to orthodox in my notions of perception, which probably haven't changed much over ten years. I really like being proven wrong, too.
Kelly Jones wrote: Have you read Sex and Character, the book this chapter comes from, in full?
Yes. I read the whole thing a few months ago, then returned to specific parts here and there to try to understand better certain concepts (such as in this chapter).
Kelly Jones wrote: So, really, as you say, it hasn't changed at all. The only difference is that women have fallen for the notion that they are equal to men intellectually, and so are too embarrassed to admit that they are not as capable.
Yep. Sometimes it's embarrassment---sometimes: pure ignorance, complete absence of self-awareness. Or both. The ego is definitely involved = pride, whether it's justifed or a delusion.

My sister was a classic example for me; once she realized that her straight-A school grades didn't mean she was intelligent, she essentially began to imitate me; everything I became interested in, she followed and tried to copy. Creatively, she 'borrowed' idea after idea from me, usually with a slight variation to feign originality. After a few years, it began to dawn on me that a lot of this was attention or praise seeking, which she stopped getting from our father ("daddy's girl," good grades making her "good").

When I finally confronted her about this (and a lot more, for some reason expecting her to own up to something, maybe just one thing), she issued a statement of denial and ignored it; anything I said that might have caused her to look inside her, she stubbornly ignored, not wanting to look at "her faults," as she called them. "I know what's wrong with me---I don't wanna look at it!"

[Still later, it occured to me that almost everything she accused me of being was what she in fact was---projection? I forget the psychobabble term for that, but she wasn't the first to do that with me.]

She once had potential, four years before, although since she began losing weight and re-discovering the beauty power she possessed in youth, that potential faded with it. Now she's a self-obsessed, barely conscious, fun-and-thrill-seeking, entirely ego-driven, oblivious bimbo (a one-time potential biologist---now a music band groupie, as she was at age 12). Her mind atrophied back to her pre-teen years in half a decade.
Kelly Jones wrote: Yes and no. It's really the quality of content that's missing, since the quantity never actually changes.

"Too much happening" is really just "too much multi-tasking". As we all know, women are excellent at multi-tasking, but bad at obsessively deepening just one idea.
True.

I was talking about humans in general---nearly seven billion of them, and every day they're inundated with a deluge of information, electronically saturated with it until it all blurs together into meaninglessness; tiny specks of wisdom get lost, like teardrops in a thunderstorm.
Kelly Jones wrote: The intellectual frontier remains unknown and unchartered - and yet it is there for everyone.
Not a bad way to put it.
Kelly Jones wrote: Cliques form not so much on the basis of jargon but on values.

Later.
Yes, and when cliques gain the power and influence to define and redefine the jargon, they program their values in others.

Non pro-feminist male authors are having a more and more difficult time getting published (the publishing business is predominantly female oriented---females read over 90% of all books anyway, and the majority of publishers are women, and either feminist or "female-first"---PC or radical feminists---at least in North America), to such a degree that many are opting for a female pseudonym in order to be published. Political correctness has developed into an institution; it's becoming law. If anyone were to continue this work, the person would have to be (biologically) female, I expect.

Have a good one.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

He does get a bit tangental as well as verbose. Also, his due consideration for giving credit where credit was due to others within the work bogged down the flow of reading. I suppose they did not use footnotes in that era.

I simplified the quoted work for you in multiple stages so you could see excactly where everything came from.

Stage 1, translate into simple terms and distill:
BEFORE proceeding to consider the main difference between the psychical life of the sexes, so far as the latter takes subjective and objective things as its contents, a few psychological soundings must be taken, and conceptions formulated. As the views and principles of prevailing systems of psychology have been formed without consideration of the subject of this book, it is not surprising that they contain little that I am able to use. At present there is no psychology but many psychologists, and it would really be a matter of caprice on my part to choose any particular school and attempt to apply its principles to my subject. I shall rather try to lay down a few useful principles on my own account.
translation:My work here is useful because so far, psychologists have not thought the following matter through well enough,
The endeavours to reach a comprehensive and unifying conception of the whole psychical process by referring it to a single principle have been particularly evident in the relations between perceptions and sensations suggested by different psychologists.

Herbart, for instance, derived the sensations from elementary ideas, whilst Horwicz supposed them to come from perceptions. Most modern psychologists have insisted that such monistic attempts must be fruitless. None the less there was some truth in the view.
translation: but I'm not saying what they have done is totally useless.
To discover this truth, however, it is necessary to make a distinction that has been overlooked by modern workers. We must distinguish between the perceiving of a perception, feeling of a sensation, thinking a thought from the later repetitions of the process in which recognition plays a part. In many cases this distinction is of fundamental importance.

Every simple, clear, plastic perception and every distinct idea, before it could be put into words, passes through a stage (which may indeed be very short) of indistinctness. So also in the case of association; for a longer or shorter time before the elements about to be grouped have actually come together, there is a sort of vague, generalised expectation or presentiment of association. Leibnitz, in particular, has worked at kindred processes, and I believe them to underlie the attempts of Herbart and Horwicz.
translation: In order to discover what part of what psychologists have discovered is actually true, first we have to differentiate between receiving data and processing.
The common acceptance of pleasure and pain as the fundamental sensations, even with Wundt's addition of the sensations of tension and relaxation, of rest and stimulation, makes the division of psychical phenomena into sensations and perceptions too narrow for due treatment of the vague preliminary stages to which I have referred. I shall go back therefore to the widest classification of psychical phenomena that I know of, that of Avenarius into “elements” and “characters.” The word “character” in this connection, of course) has nothing to do with the subject of characterology.
translation: There are different ways of dividing up input data. To explain my point best, I will use large groupings.
Avenarius added to the difficulty of applying his theories by his use of a practically new terminology (which is certainly most striking and indispensable for some of the new views he expounded). But what stands most in the way of accepting some of his conclusions is his desire to derive his psychology from the physiology of the brain, a physiology which he evolved himself out of his inner consciousness with only a slight general acquaintance with actual biological facts. The psychological, or second part of his “Critique of Pure Experience,” was really the source from which he derived the first or physiological part, with the result that the latter appears to its readers as an account of some discovery in Atlantis. Because of these difficulties I shall give here a short account of the system of Avenarius, as I find it useful for my thesis.
translation: One previous theory is that psychology is dependant on the physical brain, but the problem with the theory is it is not based on biological fact.
An “Element” in the sense of Avenarius represents what the usual psychology terms a perception, or the content of a perception, what Schopenhauer called a presentation, what in England is called an “impression” or “idea,” the “thing,” “fact,” or “object” of ordinary language; and the word is used independently of the presence or absence of a special sense-organ stimulation—a most important and novel addition. In the sense of Avenarius, and for our purpose, it is a matter of indifference to the terminology how far what is called “analysis” takes place, the whole tree may be taken as the “element,” or each single leaf, or each hair, or (where most people would stop), the colours, sizes, weights, temperatures, resistances, and so forth. Still, the analysis may go yet further, and the colour of the leaf may be taken as merely the resultant of its quality, intensity, luminosity, and so forth, these being the elements. Or we may go still further and take modern ultimate conceptions reaching units incapable of sub-division.

In the sense of Avenarius, then, elements are such ideas as “green,” “blue,” “cold,” “warm,” “soft,” “hard,” “sweet,” “bitter,” and their “character” is the particular kind of quality with which they appear, not merely their pleasantness or unpleasantness, but also such modes of presentation as “surprising,” “expected,” “novel,” “indifferent,” “recognised,” “known,” “actual,” “doubtful,” categories which Avenarius first recognised as being psychological. For instance, what I guess, believe, or know is an “element”; the fact that I guess it, not believe it or know it, is the “character” in which it presents itself psychologically (not logically).
translation: I'd like to call input data "element."
Now there is a stage in mental activity in which this sub-division of psychical phenomena cannot be made, which is too early for it. All “elements” at their first appearance are merged with the floating background, the whole being vaguely tinged by “character.” To follow my meaning, think of what takes place, when for the first time at a distance one sees something in the landscape, such as a shrub or a heap of wood, at the moment when one docs not yet know what “it” is.

At this moment “element” and “character” are absolutely indistinguishable (they are always inseparable as Petzoldt ingeniously pointed out), so improving the original statement of Avenarius.
translation: There is a moment in human psychology when input data is indistinguishable from processing. We could call processing "character."
In a dense crowd I perceive, for instance, a face which attracts me across the swaying mass by its expression. I have no idea what the face is like, and should be quite unable to describe it or give an idea of it; but it has appealed to me in the most disturbing manner, and I find myself asking with keen curiosity, “Where have I seen that face before?”

A man may see the head of a woman for a moment, and this may make a very strong impression on him, and yet he may be unable to say exactly what he has seen, or, for instance, be able to remember the colour of her hair. The retina must be exposed to the object sufficiently long, if only a fraction of a second, for a photographic impression to be made.

If one looks at any object from a considerable distance one has at first only the vaguest impression of its outlines; and as one comes nearer and sees the details more clearly, lively sensations, at first lost in the general mass, are received. Think, for instance, of the first general impression of, say, the sphenoid bone disarticulated from a skull, or of many pictures seen a little too closely or a little too far away. I myself have a remembrance of having had strong impressions from sonatas of Beethoven before I knew anything of the musical notes. Avenarius and Petzoldt have overlooked the fact that the coming into consciousness of the elements is accompanied by a kind of secretion of characterisation.

Some of the simple experiments of physiological psychology illustrate the point to which I have been referring. If one stays in a dark room until the eye has adapted itself to the absence of light, and then for a second subjects oneself to a ray of coloured light, a sensation of illumination will be received, although it is impossible to recognise the quality of the illumination; something has been perceived, but what the something is cannot be apprehended unless the stimulation lasts a definite time.
translation: When we are thinking about something, that is processing - but the moment I am referring to is when we are thinking about our perceptions to the ends of interpreting the perceptions, but not yet thinking about the possible meaning behind interpretation.
In the same way every scientific discovery, every technical invention, every artistic creation passes through a preliminary phase of indistinctness. The process is similar to the series of impressions that would be got as a statue was gradually unwrapped from a series of swathings. The same kind of sequence occurs, although, perhaps, in a very brief space of time, when one is trying to recall a piece of music. Every thought is preceded by a kind of half-thought, a condition in which vague geometrical figures, shifting masks, a swaying and indistinct background hover in the mind. The beginning and the end of the whole process, which I may term “clarification,” are what take place when a short-sighted person proceeds to look through properly adapted lenses.

Just as this process occurs in the life of the individual (and he, indeed, may die long before it is complete), so it occurs in history. Definite scientific conceptions are preceded by anticipations. The process of clarification is spread over many generations. There were ancient and modern vague anticipations of the theory of Darwin and Lamarck, anticipations which we are now apt to overvalue. Mayer and Helmholz had their predecessors, and Goethe and Leonardo da Vinci, perhaps two of the most many-sided intellects known to us, anticipated in a vague way many of the conclusions of modern science. The whole history of thought is a continuous “clarification,” a more and more accurate description or realisation of details. The enormous number of stages between light and darkness, the minute gradations of detail that follow each other in the development of thought can be realised best if one follows historically some complicated modern piece of knowledge, such as, for instance, the theory of elliptical functions.
translation: The same thought process happens with every thought - including scientific theories and interpretation of historical events.
The process of clarification may be reversed, and the act of forgetting is such a reversal. This may take a considerable time, and is usually noticed only by accident at some point or other of its course. The process is similar to the gradual obliteration of well-made roads, for the maintenance of which no provision has been made. The faint anticipations of a thought are very like the faint recollections of it, and the latter gradually become blurred as in the case of a neglected road over the boundaries of which animals stray, slowly obliterating it.
translation: The reverse happens when we forget stuff.
In this connection a practical rule for memorising, discovered and applied by a friend of mine, is interesting. It generally happens that if one wants to learn, say, a piece of music, or a section from the history of philosophy, one has to go over parts of it again and again. The problem was, how long should the intervals be between these successive attempts to commit to memory? The answer was that they should not be so long as to make it possible to take a fresh interest in the subject again, to be interested and curious about it. If the interval has produced that state of mind, then the process of clarification must begin from the beginning again. The rather popular physiological theory of Sigismund Exner as to the formation of “paths” in the nervous system may perhaps be taken as a physical parallel of the process of clarification. According to the theory, the nerves, or rather the fibrils, make paths easy for the stimulations to travel along, if these stimulations last sufficiently long or are repeated sufficiently often. So also in the case of forgetting; what happens is that these paths or processes of the nerve-cells atrophy from disuse. Avenarius would have explained the above processes by his theory of the articulation of the fibres of the brain, but his physical doctrine was rather too crude and too simple for application to psycho-physics. None the less his conception of articulation or jointing is both convenient and appropriate in its application to the process of clarification, and I shall employ it in that connection.
translation: A good way to memorize things is to reintroduce the input data at the moment you are starting to forget it. This etches the memory in better than if you wait until you have totally forgotten the data.
The process of clarification must be traced thoroughly in order to realise its importance, but for the moment, it is important to consider only the initial stage. The distinction of Avenarius between “element” and “character,” which later on will become evident in a process of clarification, is not applicable to the very earliest moments of the process. It is necessary to coin a name for those minds to which the duality of element and character becomes appreciable at no stage in the process. I propose for psychical data at the earliest stage of their existence the word Henid (from the Greek, because in them it is impossible to distinguish perception and sensation as two analytically separable factors, and because, therefore, there is no trace of duality in them).

Naturally the “henid” is an abstract conception and may not occur in the absolute form. How often psychical data in human beings actually stand at the absolute extreme of undifferentiation is uncertain and unimportant; but the theory does not need to concern itself with the possibility of such an extreme. A common example from what has happened to all of us may serve to illustrate what a henid is. I may have a definite wish to say something particular, and then something distracts me, and the “it” I wanted to say or think has gone. Later on, by some process of association, the “it” is quite suddenly reproduced, and I know at once that it was what was on my tongue, but, so to speak, in a more perfect stage of development.
translation: I'm going to name the nebulous stage of thought where it is between being input data and processing - or at that moment when the thought is in the process of being forgotten - "henid."
I fear lest some one may expect me to describe exactly what I mean by “henid.” The wish can come only from a misconception. The very idea of a henid forbids its description; it is merely a something. Later on identification will come with the complete articulation of the contents of the henid; but the henid is not the whole of this detailed content, but is distinguished from it by a lower grade of consciousness, by an absence of, so to speak, relief, by a blending of the die and the impression, by the absence of a central point in the field of vision.

And so one cannot describe particular henids; one can only be conscious of their existence.
translation: Because of the nebulous nature of henids, they can not be described.
None the less henids are things as vital as elements and characters. Each henid is an individual and can be distinguished from other henids. Later on I shall show that probably the mental data of early childhood (certainly of the first fourteen months) are all henids, although perhaps not in the absolute sense. Throughout childhood these data do not reach far from the henid stage; in adults there is always a certain process of development going on. Probably the perceptions of some plants and animals are henids. In the case of mankind the development from the henid to the completely differentiated perception and idea is always possible, although such an ideal condition may seldom be attained. Whilst expression in words is impossible in the case of the absolute henid, as words imply articulated thoughts, there are also in the highest stages of the intellect possible to man some things still unclarified and, therefore, unspeakable.
translation: Early childhood thoughts are not truly thoughts at all, but henids. Plants and animals probably get henids, but not thoughts. Even those who can think very clearly have henids that don't develop into true thought.
The theory of henids will help in the old quarrel between the spheres of perception and sensation, and will replace by a developmental conception the ideas of element and character which Avenarius and Petzoldt deduced from the process of clarification. It is only when the elements become distinct that they can be distinguished from the characters. Man is disposed to humours and sentimentalities only so long as the contours of his ideas are vague; when he sees things in the light instead of the dark his process of thinking will become different.
translation: Emotions and sentimentality come from henids, not thoughts.
Now what is the relation between the investigation I have been making and the psychology of the sexes? What is the distinction between the male and the female (and to reach this has been the object of my digression) in the process of clarification?

Here is my answer:

The male has the same psychical data as the female, but in a more articulated form; where she thinks more or less in henids, he thinks in more or less clear and detailed presentations in which the elements are distinct from the tones of feeling. With the woman, thinking and feeling are identical, for man they are in opposition. The woman has many of her mental experiences as henids, whilst in man these have passed through a process of clarification. Woman is sentimental, and knows emotion but not mental excitement.
translation: Women have degrees of henids rather than real thought, whereas men get henids, some of which they can develop into actual thoughts.
The greater articulation of the mental data in man is reflected in the more marked character of his body and face, as compared with the roundness and vagueness of the woman. In the same connection it is to be remembered that, notwithstanding the popular belief, the senses of the male are much more acute than those of the woman.
translation: Because men think more clearly, their physical appearance is also more clearly defined. Women do not think clearly, so their physical appearance is also less defined and more rounded.
The only exception is the sense of touch, an exception of great interest to which I shall refer later. It has been established, moreover, that the sensibility to pain is much more acute in man, and we have now learned to distinguish between that and the tactile sensations.
translation: When men are in pain it really hurts, but when women think they are in pain, they are not feeling pain like a man can feel pain.
A weaker sensibility is likely to retard the passage of mental data through the process of clarification, although we cannot quite take it for granted that it must be so. Perhaps a more trustworthy proof of the less degree of articulation in the mental data of the woman may be drawn from consideration of the greater decision in the judgments made by men, although indeed it may be the case that this distinction rests on a deeper basis. It is certainly the case that whilst we are still near the henid stage we know much more certainly what a thing is not than what it is. What Mach has called instinctive experience depends on henids. While we are near the henid stage we think round about a subject, correct ourselves at each new attempt, and say that that was not yet the right word. Naturally that condition implies uncertainty and indecision in judgment. Judgment comes towards the end of the process of clarification; the act of judgment is in itself a departure from the henid stage.
translation: Women make decisions, but true judgment comes from men because judgment requires thinking, and men are the ones who think. Women only have henids, so they can not make judgments, only decisions.
The most decisive proof for the correctness of the view that attributes henids to woman and differentiated thoughts to man, and that sees in this a fundamental sexual distinction, lies in the fact that wherever a new judgment is to be made, (not merely something already settled to be put into proverbial form) it is always the case that the female expects from man the clarification of her data, the interpretation of her henids. It is almost a tertiary sexual character of the male, and certainly it acts on the female as such, that she expects from him the interpretation and illumination of her thoughts. It is from this reason that so many girls say that they could only marry, or, at least, only love a man who was cleverer than themselves; that they would be repelled by a man who said that all they thought was right, and did not know better than they did. In short, the woman makes it a criterion of manliness that the man should be superior to herself mentally, that she should be influenced and dominated by the man; and this in itself is enough to ridicule all ideas of sexual equality.
translation: The proof that women can not make judgments is that they ask the men to make judgments.
The male lives consciously, the female lives unconsciously. This is certainly the necessary conclusion for the extreme cases. The woman receives her consciousness from the man; the function to bring into consciousness what was outside it is a sexual function of the typical man with regard to the typical woman, and is a necessary part of his ideal completeness.
translation: In extreme cases, the male lives consciously and the female lives unconsciously, but in that case, in order for him to be complete, he needs the woman to make him complete because he needs her henids to turn something into thought.




Stage 2, compilation of translations:
My work here is useful because so far, psychologists have not thought the following matter through well enough, but I'm not saying what they have done is totally useless. In order to discover what part of what psychologists have discovered is actually true, first we have to differentiate between receiving data and processing.

There are different ways of dividing up input data. To explain my point best, I will use large groupings. One previous theory is that psychology is dependant on the physical brain, but the problem with the theory is it is not based on biological fact. I'd like to call input data "element."

There is a moment in human psychology when input data is indistinguishable from processing. We could call processing "character."

When we are thinking about something, that is processing - but the moment I am referring to is when we are thinking about our perceptions to the ends of interpreting the perceptions, but not yet thinking about the possible meaning behind interpretation. The same thought process happens with every thought - including scientific theories and interpretation of historical events. The reverse happens when we forget stuff. A good way to memorize things is to reintroduce the input data at the moment you are starting to forget it. This etches the memory in better than if you wait until you have totally forgotten the data.

I'm going to name the nebulous stage of thought where it is between being input data and processing - or at that moment when the thought is in the process of being forgotten - "henid." Because of the nebulous nature of henids, they can not be described. Early childhood thoughts are not truly thoughts at all, but henids. Plants and animals probably get henids, but not thoughts. Even those who can think very clearly have henids that don't develop into true thought.

Because men think more clearly, their physical appearance is also more clearly defined. Women do not think clearly, so their physical appearance is also less defined and more rounded. When men are in pain it really hurts, but when women think they are in pain, they are not feeling pain like a man can feel pain.

Women make decisions, but true judgment comes from men because judgment requires thinking, and men are the ones who think. Women only have henids, so they can not make judgments, only decisions. The proof that women can not make judgments is that they ask the men to make judgments.

In extreme cases, the male lives consciously and the female lives unconsciously, but in that case, in order for him to be complete, he needs the woman to make him complete because he needs her henids to turn something into thought.

Stage 3, edit for some more smoothness.

So far, psychologists have not sufficiently thought through the stages of thought and how these stages relate to differences in the genders, but I'm not saying what they have done is totally useless. In order to discover what part of what psychologists have discovered is actually true, first we have to differentiate between data and processing. When we are purely perceiving, we are just receiving data; but when we are thinking about something, that is processing. Let me clarify that interpreting sights, sounds, and sensations into accurate information about the environment (such as, “is that brown furry lump a dog or a coat?”) is still just receiving data.

The concept I would like to introduce to you is the moment between when we are receiving data, but not yet thinking about the possible meaning behind interpretation. That moment happens with every thought - including scientific theories and interpretation of historical events. The reverse happens when we forget stuff. A good way to memorize things is to reintroduce the input data at the moment you are starting to forget it. This etches the memory in better than if you wait until you have totally forgotten the data.

I'm going to name the nebulous stage of thought where it is between being input data and processing - or at that moment when the thought is in the process of being forgotten - "henid." Because of the nebulous nature of henids, they can not be described. Early childhood thoughts are not truly thoughts at all, but henids. Plants and animals probably get henids, but not thoughts. Even those who can think very clearly have henids that don't develop into true thought.

Because men think more clearly, their physical appearance is also more clearly defined. Women do not think clearly, so their physical appearance is also less defined and more rounded. When men are in pain it really hurts, but when women think they are in pain, they are not feeling pain like a man can feel pain.

Women make decisions, but true judgment comes from men because judgment requires thinking, and men are the ones who think. Women only have henids, so they can not make judgments, only decisions. The proof that women can not make judgments is that they ask the men to make judgments.

In extreme cases, the male lives consciously and the female lives unconsciously, but in that case, in order for him to be complete, he needs the woman to make him complete because he needs her henids to turn something into thought.
[/quote]
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Carl G
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Post by Carl G »

Elizabeth,

Thanks for the summaries. Very useful.
Good Citizen Carl
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Carl G
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Post by Carl G »

Nordicvs wrote:Non pro-feminist male authors are having a more and more difficult time getting published
In certain fields, only. Not in World War II history, horror fiction, rock star biography, cookbooks, travel guides, small business start-up, spy thrillers, spiritual readers...
(the publishing business is predominantly female oriented---females read over 90% of all books anyway,
I don't believe you. Men read many more history and technical books, like textbooks and how-to books. Women may read more fiction (except science-fiction) but non-fiction is by far a larger part of the whole.
and the majority of publishers are women, and either feminist or "female-first"---PC or radical feminists---at least in North America),
I don't think so. Women may be more numerous as editors these days, but men still run the show.
to such a degree that many are opting for a female pseudonym in order to be published.
Only in certain markets like women's magazines and romance novels.
Good Citizen Carl
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

Weininger kind of makes it sound like women want their henids clarified for the sake of clarity, but women don't value clarity and for the most part they take it personally when others try to clarify things for them. I don't even think women can really recognize another's clarity other than as a measure of the length of time they spend on her thoughts. A woman just wants someone to pay attention to her and make her feel like her thoughts are attractive. "A man clarifying a woman's henids" translates to "someone flattering a woman in conversation". It's the men who have the tendency to be interested in clarity. I find it kind of strange the Weininger overlooked this in a book that's essentially devoted to how little women value clarity.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Kelly Jones wrote:The whole text was the question. I'll just keep posting whatever of Weininger that i think is worth thinking about.

P.S. I'm not asking for answers from others, so much as continuing to clarify humanity's history of thought, which also includes my thoughts.
(bold added)
Kelly Jones wrote:The only difference is that women have fallen for the notion that they are equal to men intellectually, and so are too embarrassed to admit that they are not as capable.
People who are not as capable as others are often embarrassed to admit they are not as capable. That is a function of the ego. It is only people who have released their attachment to their feelings of capability and self worth who are mature enough to admit when something is beyond their capabilities.

Weininger was off on a few points, but he also had some insights. as well as some accurate observations.

I thought it was kind of amusing that he correctly slammed the method of theorists who theorized that psychology was a function of the physical brain (which turned out to be right) because they did not have biological evidence of this, yet Weininger decided (without biological evidence) that only men could feel physical pain. During that time period, doctors did not even use anesthesia before performing an appeasiotomy (cutting open the vagina before childbirth) because they were convinced that women did not actually have sensation in that area. It was considered a huge discovery not that many decades ago that it actually hurt when they cut open a vagina. I imagine that women attempted to communicate that to the doctors, but it wasn't until doctors could gather irrefutable physiological evidence of pain before they concluded that it actually does hurt when the vagina is cut open, so only then did they start using anesthesia for that procedure.

I'm also not too sure about his taking that women ask for men's opinions as "evidence" that they can not make judgments. Although sometimes this may be the case, women were socially conditioned to defer to the male. Even though women are no longer conditioned to defer to the male, females still ask for the opinions of others, which is often used as peripheral data. Sometimes I ask as peripheral data, but also I take opportunities to ask the opinion of another in order to assess his or her judgment skills.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Matt Gregory wrote:Weininger kind of makes it sound like women want their henids clarified for the sake of clarity,
I didn't see any point where he made it sound like that. Can you pull out a quote that looked like that was what he was indicating?
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Post by Matt Gregory »

The most decisive proof for the correctness of the view that attributes henids to woman and differentiated thoughts to man, and that sees in this a fundamental sexual distinction, lies in the fact that wherever a new judgment is to be made, (not merely something already settled to be put into proverbial form) it is always the case that the female expects from man the clarification of her data, the interpretation of her henids. It is almost a tertiary sexual character of the male, and certainly it acts on the female as such, that she expects from him the interpretation and illumination of her thoughts. It is from this reason that so many girls say that they could only marry, or, at least, only love a man who was cleverer than themselves; that they would be repelled by a man who said that all they thought was right, and did not know better than they did. In short, the woman makes it a criterion of manliness that the man should be superior to herself mentally, that she should be influenced and dominated by the man; and this in itself is enough to ridicule all ideas of sexual equality.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

I'm not sure where you are picking up Weininger implying that women want their henids clarified for the sake of clarity - and actually he did not specify his thoughts on for what reason women wanted an intellectually superior man, only that they did. I'll try a couple of spots where you may be getting your above interpretation though.
it is always the case that the female expects from man the clarification of her data
Perhaps where you and I diverge on our interpretation is over the word "expects." An expectation is not always a reflection of a desire, but rather a recognition of habituation. People expect the sun to rise in the morning and set in the evening because that is just the way things happen, and they have this expectation without thinking about, or in some cases without even knowing about, the rotation of Earth or any astrological implications. Weininger would have called this a henid, and it is fairly neutral in desire for someone who does not consider what the sun not rising or not setting might actually mean. If an infant/toddler is playing with a toy and it is taken away, he screams and expects it will be returned to him (a henid of a want). If a child is throwing a ball in the house and breaks something, he expects to be punished (a henid) although he does not believe he wants to be punished.

The longer quote you gave is where he stated that women ask men to make the judgments, but to me, he did not indicate that the reason they were asking was for the sake of clarity, but he merely brought this up as evidence that they could not think clearly enough to make real judgments on their own. Actually I got the general impression that he did not believe that females even had the capacity to conceptualize what a clear thought was. Like a child who goes to his father because his toy is broken, he doesn't care how his toy is broken or how to fix it, he just wants the results - a fixed toy.

Clear thoughts produce better results. Choosing which neighborhood to live in can make a difference in family safety and availability of community resources. Often one place will have more resources while the other has more safety. A person may want the resources and the safety, but not really know how much safety to give up for resources or how many resources to give up for safety. I believe Weininger thought that women just knew that men would be able to make the judgment about which neighborhood is better for them, and by asking men, they would get their "fixed toy" - the result of clear thinking - without so much as a consideration of how the conclusion was reached.
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Post by Matt Gregory »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:I'm not sure where you are picking up Weininger implying that women want their henids clarified for the sake of clarity - and actually he did not specify his thoughts on for what reason women wanted an intellectually superior man, only that they did.
I'm sure Weininger recognized that people don't do things for no reason. If the female didn't want clarity then she wouldn't seek it because it wouldn't look to her like there was anything to gain.
it is always the case that the female expects from man the clarification of her data
Perhaps where you and I diverge on our interpretation is over the word "expects." An expectation is not always a reflection of a desire, but rather a recognition of habituation. People expect the sun to rise in the morning and set in the evening because that is just the way things happen, and they have this expectation without thinking about, or in some cases without even knowing about, the rotation of Earth or any astrological implications. Weininger would have called this a henid, and it is fairly neutral in desire for someone who does not consider what the sun not rising or not setting might actually mean. If an infant/toddler is playing with a toy and it is taken away, he screams and expects it will be returned to him (a henid of a want). If a child is throwing a ball in the house and breaks something, he expects to be punished (a henid) although he does not believe he wants to be punished.
He was talking about a normal, male/female relationship where both parties desire each other and want to bond with each other. Desire has to be part of it, otherwise the interaction wouldn't be sexual. A woman expects a man to scratch his balls without desiring it, but it's not sexual and doesn't play a part in the bonding process, so it would be pointless to include it in a theory about sexuality.
The longer quote you gave is where he stated that women ask men to make the judgments, but to me, he did not indicate that the reason they were asking was for the sake of clarity, but he merely brought this up as evidence that they could not think clearly enough to make real judgments on their own. Actually I got the general impression that he did not believe that females even had the capacity to conceptualize what a clear thought was. Like a child who goes to his father because his toy is broken, he doesn't care how his toy is broken or how to fix it, he just wants the results - a fixed toy.

Clear thoughts produce better results. Choosing which neighborhood to live in can make a difference in family safety and availability of community resources. Often one place will have more resources while the other has more safety. A person may want the resources and the safety, but not really know how much safety to give up for resources or how many resources to give up for safety. I believe Weininger thought that women just knew that men would be able to make the judgment about which neighborhood is better for them, and by asking men, they would get their "fixed toy" - the result of clear thinking - without so much as a consideration of how the conclusion was reached.
If this were the case then it wouldn't be possible to bond with a woman on a verbal level. She just wouldn't respond to it and you would only be able to give her gifts to bond with her. But it's actually easier to bond with a woman by talking to her as opposed to giving her things, so there has to be an immediate benefit for her there, otherwise she wouldn't respond to it emotionally to create the bond.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

I didn't say that Weininger was right, I merely gave a description of what he said in the quotation.

I have a theory about what he may have thought regarding what you said, but in order to give you the level of accuracy that I expect of myself, I need to finish his book. This could take awhile, as it is not the only thing I am working on.

The full information that you are looking for is not in this quote.

So far my impressions of him are that he was bipolar, manic when he wrote this, and terribly in need of a good editor, at least. I reserve final judgment though until I have gone through the whole book and gotten some more historical context.
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

The translation Kelly posted isn't very good. The Robert Willis one on Kevin's site is much better. Here (.pdf)
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Post by Kelly Jones »

Hello again,

I plan to continue several discussions, that had a break of several days'. Such as:

Matt's (on using "consensus" to mean A=A; on Weininger's differentiation of element from character; and the notion of patience)

Nordicus' (on the meaning of "masculinity")

EI's (on the Absolute)

and Ryan's (on interfering with animal realms causes)


I'll proceed after dealing with another opponent first, though.

My gladius will be swifter and surer when i return.



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Kelly Jones
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Why did you post this? Did you think we were all just sitting around here asking ourselves "When is Kelly Jones going to return? Who is she going to talk to? What will she be talking about?"

Kelly, your ego rivals the ego of Aaron Mathis.
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Post by Matt Gregory »

Kelly Jones wrote:Hello again,

I plan to continue several discussions, that had a break of several days'. Such as:

Matt's (on using "consensus" to mean A=A; on Weininger's differentiation of element from character; and the notion of patience)
Ooh, ooh! Did you read that talk on patience I posted, Kelly? I think I got all of the typos out of it now. It's good isn't it?
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Post by Nordicvs »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Why did you post this? Did you think we were all just sitting around here asking ourselves "When is Kelly Jones going to return? Who is she going to talk to? What will she be talking about?"

Kelly, your ego rivals the ego of Aaron Mathis.
I was waiting. I look forward to intelligent discussions with like-minded people, especially on rare and unpopular subjects, which is part of the reason why I keep coming back here (to learn, to be challenged, and perhaps to challenge others). So, when I'm in the middle of an online conversation and the person buggers off for a while, it's cool to have a reminder from the person that he or she will return to it.

What you view as "ego" I view as a bit of old fashioned courtesy.

Perhaps you just have issues with Kelly for some reason...?
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Post by Kelly Jones »

Yes, a courtesy, though it was 70/30 that EI and Ryan would read this thread several times.

I'll try to be back in roughly a week.

I wouldn't want several memory-lines to weaken from neglect, or to be obliterated by rabbit-trails.


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Post by Kelly Jones »

Better late than never!



Here is a series of three images, and a second single image, to illustrate the difference between "element" and "character".

I think it is very important to be able to tell the difference. I am thinking of the experience of the difference, even more than the intellectualising part. In my opinion, it is vital, because it sheds light on the true self, as well as casting more light on how the ego generally functions.


Click here for the images.


[edit: new link]
Last edited by Kelly Jones on Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:55 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Kelly Jones »

Following is my explanation of the four images, posted above, that illustrate the difference between elements and characters.

Firstly, definitions:

Elements are ideas, content, things, perceptions, facts, sensations. For instance, "active", "yellow", "falling", "solid", "icy", "impression".

Characters are psychological, and coloured by emotion. They occur when things are classified in relation to the false self (the ego) [*see below].

For instance, "surprising", "contemplative", "certain", "unhelpful", "rightful", "reckless", "dreaded", "distinct", "vague".


[*I now see that characters are not things classified in relation to the ego, but actually in relation to the true "I", because psychological aspects of one's unique human self are not necessarily egotistical. The true self is a logical agent, and characters applies to it just as they do to the false self. However, the egotistical mind will not be able to distinguish characters are purely as the truly-oriented mind.]


Image 1 shows two identical grey cars, but with different captions. The first caption is an element, the second is a character.

Images 2-4 show "monadic" consciousness and "henidic" consciousness.

Some more definitions:

Monadic consciousness thinks in monads. Monads are distinct and fully clarified ideas. Monad means a basic unit of reality: a defined thing. Males that tend to be logical, have monadic consciousness. It is more often characteristic of the male human than the female, yet it is still very rare. It can distinguish between "elements" and "characters", whereas the female of the species generally cannot.

Monads are more likely to be elements than characters, because monads are fully clarified ideas, but I am still clarifying this concept.

The overwhelming majority of females have "henidic consciousness". Henids are pre-thoughts, where there is little or no clarification of thoughts, but just a whiff of the skeleton of characters. That is, women are generally not conscious enough to detect the false self.

Only a monadic consciousness can discern which of his thoughts are characters and which are elements, since he has clarified the characters into monads. Prior to this, consciousness remains dependent on other people to clarify things.


Image 2 and 3 refer to a "system". I hasten to assert that monads are not fully clarified by using a kind of knowing relation to all the specific branches of this system. That would be unnecessary and impossible. Only one branch of this system is enough for a monad to exist (namely, the root and the furthest branch that is clarified). A monad is not, absolutely, like a part of a scientific taxonomic system. If it were, the "system" would be a theory of the universe, and monads would be empirical things, but that is not what I mean by a system. I simply mean, a system by which things are contrasted against all other things. A monad about an empirical object is definite and complete, in contrast with the absolute logical truth of the Infinite. In this sense, do I mean "system".

These last three images should be self-explanatory.

Also, I think the translation in the opening post was satisfactory. However, I'll post the other two later, just in case anyone wishes to examine them.

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Last edited by Kelly Jones on Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

OW: In the sense of Avenarius, then, elements are such ideas as “green,” “blue,” “cold,” “warm,” “soft,” “hard,” “sweet,” “bitter,” and their “character” is the particular kind of quality with which they appear, not merely their pleasantness or unpleasantness, but also such modes of presentation as “surprising,” “expected,” “novel,” “indifferent,” “recognised,” “known,” “actual,” “doubtful,” categories which Avenarius first recognised as being psychological. For instance, what I guess, believe, or know is an “element”; the fact that I guess it, not believe it or know it, is the “character” in which it presents itself psychologically (not logically).
You are right Kelly, I did miss that part. Thank you for correcting it.
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