Some Questions of Trevor

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unwise
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Some Questions of Trevor

Post by unwise »

I got these questions from Trevor in another thread. They are probably the best questions I've been asked here at Spock Central, and they seem sincere, so I thought I would place them here so we can work on them.

I don't want to get sidetracked outside of these particular issues. Here they are: (When I get some time here and there I will add comments or post relevant material....and answer any legit questions. Most of you have been ruled out as having any actual curiosity or sincerity.)

I suggest that this is where you focus your argument. It's not only David who's having a hard time understanding this; I don't understand it either.

You say it cannot be described in familiar terms. For the sake of discussion, you are going to have to try as hard as you can, or else you will be unintelligible. What is the Cosmic Self? That is to say, where is it located, and what are some identifying features?

What about magic, strangeness, paranormal activity, and illogical quantum effects? Is there any underlying theme or trend among them? You say they manifest themselves acausally... how? I can't imagine something having an acausal manifestation. It goes against my conception of a manifestation.

As to simultaneously believing that something is both true and not-true AND neither true or not-true (in the case of the cat), I'm reminded of Buddha-speak. Is that intentional? Could you elaborate?
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Post by Leyla Shen »

[insert cross-universe, quantum glitch]

Boo!

.
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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden »

Hahaha! Stop it, Leyla.
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Post by Rory »

Ow. I feel like I just got forced to say Boo and don't know why!
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

I want to hear the replies. I've decided by this point that unwise has pieced together something that I won't find in any book -- or at least none that I'd end up reading. It might be lunacy, but then again I gave David the benefit of the doubt even when I completely disagreed with his views on women, and despite not understanding the vocabulary, and now his metaphysical/epistemological notions are indispensible to me.

For all I know, unwise could be saying really basic stuff, but simply using all the wrong vocabulary for it. Or my vocabulary is poor.

My sister once proved to me the existence of UFO's by explaining that "unidentified" only means you don't yet know what it is -- not that it's from another planet -- and that aliens are mostly an inside joke among people who are (usually) no more eccentric than astronomers and bird watchers.
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Post by unwise »

Trevor, let's start with the 'Cosmic Self.'

In order to understand THAT (as Nisargadatta Maharaj would say), I will have to explain everything in the universe and how it is structured. But we have time.

My 'system' is totally unlike anything you will find. It is my own mix of what I would call Advaita and Samkhya.

I conceive of three states of consciousness.

1. World-appearing. This is the state of all normal wakefulness and dreaming. A dream is the same as wakefulness - a world is appearing. From this point of view, the world is real and the Self cannot appear.

2. Cosmic Self-appearing. This is a rare state of total absorption in the Self or the 'ground' state of consciousness. It is a state free from all thought. No thought arises, no world appears, no others exist, and it is outside of space and time. A self-aware void. It's nature is pure being - a self absorption in nothing but existence and being. A pure awareness of existing or existence without even the establishment of an ego or sense of 'I.' From this point of view, only the Cosmic Self is real and a world cannot appear.

3. Enlightenment-appearing. This is a hybrid state where world appears as dream and the Cosmic Self is also experienced as the location of the experiencer's 'I' consciousness. World is seen as unreal, yet the enlightened one maintains ego awareness and 'plays' within existence. Similar to a 'lucid dream.' He has a dual point of view. This dual point of view is the reason his comments are often experienced by others as paradoxical, illogical, contradictory or absurd. He is in the world and not in the world. He has a self and a no self. He is here and nowhere etc. He experiences duality and nonduality. He may worship a deity and he sees no deity. He may speak of billions of worlds and then say there are no worlds. He teaches others but my say there are no others. He speaks and yet says nothing etc. etc. etc. He says the world is real, the world is not real, the world is neither real or not real and the world is both real and not real.


Let us just start there. You can chew on that. Perhaps you will recognize some features and/or where they depart from Spock Central here.

I'll entertain any question YOU have to clarify.
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Post by kowtaaia »

What a pile of crap! It's impossible to experience non-duality. There is only non duality. No one is there.
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Post by kowtaaia »

Although....what is called "normal wakefulness" is indeed a continuation of the dream state and vice versa.
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Post by sschaula »

So Trevor, what do you think of his views?
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Post by Carl G »

Spock Central. Lol. That's funnier than that whole movie Borat. And true.
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Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

unwise, this was very interesting, and reminded me strongly of other things I read, albeit in a different form (you'll see what I mean). I apologize that I didn't ask many questions; I'm trying to see if it compares favourably with another philosopher.
I conceive of three states of consciousness.
Right here you differ from the dominant trend in this forum. It is commonly said that changing states of consciousness is irrelevant, and that enlightenment is not really a "state" at all so much as insight into logical truth. In that sense, everyone here is concerned with your "World-appearing" state of consciousness, and having mastery over logic whether awake or asleep, or what-have-you.
2. Cosmic Self-appearing
Sorry to make the comparison, but what you are describing reminds me of Sartre's "being-for-itself", or the Nothingness referred to in the title of his "Being & Nothingness". Actually, having read most of that book, if I replace your "Cosmic-self" with "being-for-itself", I can easily imagine that you are talking about the exact same thing.

As he might say: consciousness is a nothingness, a break within being, that exists exclusively for itself.

Are you familiar with the theory? If not, I am very impressed that you came up with this idea independently. Sartre's psychology was "phenomenological", which basically means that he avoided science altogether and just pieced together the world as he experienced it. He even invented his own branch of psychology, although few people practise it (probably because he was an inexcusably terrible writer trying to explain a very difficult concept that seems deceptively easy).
3. Enlightenment-appearing
If I were to accept that your last description was Sartre's for-itself, what you are here describing is reminiscent of a being-in-itself-for-itself, the psychology that Sartre said an omnipresent omnipotent God must have. He wrote a very small (one or two sentence) passage that said that being-in-itself-for-itself is impossible, since something cannot both be and not be.

I would suggest that you arrived at the same conclusion, and noticed that this god-like state results in constant contradictions. You do say that a lot of the things you say are contradictory: that is acceptable if a contradiction is given truth. What I say you have here is an existential proof that a conscious God is impossible, as opposed to a possible state of consciousness.

I don't know how accurate my comparison is: if someone is familiar with Sartre, I would love to have his insight.

Otherwise, unwise: I have an understanding of what you are saying. It's not total nonsense. I can see pretty striking similarities with a major existentialist writer, and even if I'm missing some subtleties of your own theory (for instance, I may have completely misinterpreted the Enlightenment-appearing state of consciousness), I think that's impressive. You appear to have distilled consciousness to its pure form (Cosmic self-appearing) and tried to reconcile this pure consciousness with the ability to manipulate the world purely through its action.

Please, do continue.
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Post by unwise »

Trevor,

You are an excellent student! Finally, someone appears with an open mind and a desire to learn.

I have heard of Sartre, but don't know a thing about him. I know very little philosophy. And, it is strange, but my 'ideas' do not exactly accord with the Hindu philosophers that I have read. Much of it does, but not totally. Perhaps there is a difference in the language and terminology to some degree.

And what I know of the Western Philosophers is small - Kant, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. To me, they are all coming very close to 'IT' but missing - just slightly. I saw that they were all interested in the Indian Upanishads also. That is the root.

It is always interesting to me when someone like yourself shows me that someone else said a similar thing. All of my 'ideas' come from nothing other than my own first-hand experience. Once that was in place, it was quite easy to find parallels in the ancient writings and scripture.

I was quite satisfied with my own experience and knowledge. Totally satisfied. After many years I would read something that was exactly like what I had found out. For example, I found a concept called 'Transcendental Aloneness' and just knew that this person HAD EXPERIENCED what I was talking about. You have to experience 'transcendental aloneness' to even begin to come up with an idea like that.

If you traced my life experience, my readings, the people, the places, the disasters, the pain, the satori etc.,you would think that it was all designed by a playwrite to bring me exactly to this knowledge. As a matter of fact, I have been plagued all my life -stopped, hindered, ruined, abused, humiliated, wrecked, beat down. Astrologers say 'my chart' is full of Saturn and '12th house issues.' Opposition. Fire. Breaking down....and enlightenment. Saturn ruins the person so that he turns in. And so it is.

One is brought here by god. One must be god's buddy. Be full of gratitude and a deep thirst for truth and god will take notice of you.
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Carl G
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Post by Carl G »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:It is commonly said that changing states of consciousness is irrelevant, and that enlightenment is not really a "state" at all so much as insight into logical truth. In that sense, everyone here is concerned with your "World-appearing" state of consciousness, and having mastery over logic whether awake or asleep, or what-have-you.
I certainly hope this is untrue, for it is a patently false position. I do not see how anyone could be enlightened and at the same time asleep. But I can see how some might imagine it, solely on the basis of logic.
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Post by David Quinn »

Carl G wrote:
Spock Central. Lol. That's funnier than that whole movie Borat. And true.
That is insulting. Spock was half-human.

TS: It is commonly said that changing states of consciousness is irrelevant, and that enlightenment is not really a "state" at all so much as insight into logical truth. In that sense, everyone here is concerned with your "World-appearing" state of consciousness, and having mastery over logic whether awake or asleep, or what-have-you.

CG: I certainly hope this is untrue, for it is a patently false position. I do not see how anyone could be enlightened and at the same time asleep. But I can see how some might imagine it, solely on the basis of logic.
Not even on the basis of logic. If enlightenment is defined as consciousness of the nature of Reality, then an unconscious person, by definition, isn't enlightened.

An enlightened person never falls into delusion, either awake or asleep, so in that sense we can say he is enlightened 24 hours a day. But he does relinquish his consciousness in deep sleep.


-

Unwise wrote:
2. Cosmic Self-appearing. This is a rare state of total absorption in the Self or the 'ground' state of consciousness. It is a state free from all thought. No thought arises, no world appears, no others exist, and it is outside of space and time. A self-aware void. It's nature is pure being - a self absorption in nothing but existence and being. A pure awareness of existing or existence without even the establishment of an ego or sense of 'I.' From this point of view, only the Cosmic Self is real and a world cannot appear
This is a commonly-misunderstood altered state of consciousness which should be placed in the first category - world-appearing.

I know it glitters, but it is just another illusory appearance at bottom.

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Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

DQ,
If enlightenment is defined as consciousness of the nature of Reality, then an unconscious person, by definition, isn't enlightened.
Thanks for phrasing that more eloquently than I could. I was waiting for you, Keven, or Dan to correct Carl, since when I said "asleep" I was referring specifically to dreaming, when consciousness is possible. Unwise did say that he's identifying three states of consciousness, so I assumed that total unconscious sleep did not count.
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Post by Carl G »

Excuse me, I misunderstood Trevor's meaning when he said, "awake or asleep." I took it asleep to be waking sleep, the sort of unconsious ordinary state many people exist in most of the time. I thought Trevor was suggesting that some here believe one can be Enlightened, that is to say conscious of certain greater truths and at the same time unconscious of oneself. Such a stance is what I said would be patently false.

Actually, maybe many posters at Genius do believe this. After all, many here argue that there is no self of which to be aware. While I would agree in part -- that ultimately that is true -- I would also say that as long as one has a biological body to take care of, there is, in a certain practical sense, indeed a self.

And this self, this conglomoration of thoughts and feelings and movements, must be awakened not just to knowledge of fundamental Truth about the nature of reality, but roused from the stupor of one's own everyday ordinary consciousness, healed of errant patterns and pains that are obstacles to enlightened living, and liberated from the prison of ordinary human existence.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Carl G wrote:I would also say that as long as one has a biological body to take care of, there is, in a certain practical sense, indeed a self.
Wouldn't that be the difference between being a "self" and having a "self" which does not inherently exist, but is a construct of convenience - which, ironically, is rather inconvenient to take care of.
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Post by unwise »

Let's talk a bit about 'World-appearing' as this is the world everyone is familiar with and the one that is analyzed here at Spock Central.

The 'wakeful world' and the 'dream world' are only different in their degree of stability. They are both created by the imagination of ego. They are unreal. So, of course, nothing in them has any 'inherent' realness. That is not a big discovery. It is a scientific fact. Yet, as in a dream, the world seems real enough when we have hunger or a sore tooth. The hunger and sore tooth is suffered by an ego. The ego also differentiates between 'me' and 'you', and is otherwise the seat of the dream. The dream appears to the ego and the ego suffers the dream. If there is no ego, there is no dream and no world, no others, no thoughts, no space, no time.

Ego is a state of consciousness wherein the world appears.

One can act without any sense of ego - as in playing tennis, doing math homework, discussing Vulcan philosophy or dreaming. Often in dreaming, one is simply acting without thought of an ego. Nevertheless, the ego is active because the world is appearing to an actor. The ego may say there is no ego, but, of course, someone is acting while saying this. He is saying something to ANOTHER. Ego is present. Ego, in fact, is the only real thing in 'world-appearing.'
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

The "ego" that is the point of origin of individual perception is not the ego of an ego-driven culture, which is what humanity is (and I refer to "humanity" as homo-sapiens, not the Buddhist "human realm").

Wakefulness is the recognition that we may look from our eyes, but that is not our whole body (and that statement can be taken as a metaphor).
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Post by unwise »

There is a great deal of mumbo jumbo BS that flies around this site masquerading as SOMETHING, but Trevor and I are actually going to talk about SOMETHING.

I would appreciate it if we can converse without all the interruptions.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

unwise wrote:There is a great deal of mumbo jumbo BS that flies around this site masquerading as SOMETHING, but Trevor and I are actually going to talk about SOMETHING.

I would appreciate it if we can converse without all the interruptions.
A highly appropriate response to unwise
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Post by beebuddy »

unwise wrote:There is a great deal of mumbo jumbo BS that flies around this site masquerading as SOMETHING, but Trevor and I are actually going to talk about SOMETHING.

I would appreciate it if we can converse without all the interruptions.
It's a public board, PM your flunky if you don't like it.
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Post by sschaula »

Unwise said:
The 'wakeful world' and the 'dream world' are only different in their degree of stability. They are both created by the imagination of ego. They are unreal. So, of course, nothing in them has any 'inherent' realness. That is not a big discovery. It is a scientific fact.
Actually, it's a scientific fact that the dream world has no reality outside of our minds, and the wakeful world is the only reality...however many people dream while in the midst of the waking world.
Yet, as in a dream, the world seems real enough when we have hunger or a sore tooth. The hunger and sore tooth is suffered by an ego. The ego also differentiates between 'me' and 'you', and is otherwise the seat of the dream. The dream appears to the ego and the ego suffers the dream. If there is no ego, there is no dream and no world, no others, no thoughts, no space, no time.
If there is no ego, then the reality is experienced and not differentiated, as in "me" versus "you".

I would never say that the world disappears when the ego is gone. It may only seem to, at times. Nirvikapla samadhi isn't a permanent state.
Ego is a state of consciousness wherein the world appears.
I disagree. The world appears regardless. Such is the nature of existing as a human being. Or a human being without an ego.
One can act without any sense of ego - as in playing tennis, doing math homework, discussing Vulcan philosophy or dreaming.
I agree with this. Whenever the mind is absorbed in a task, the ego isn't acting...especially if you're very focused. However, that person will soon experience the ego again...it could be said that they haven't dissolved their karma yet.
Often in dreaming, one is simply acting without thought of an ego. Nevertheless, the ego is active because the world is appearing to an actor. The ego may say there is no ego, but, of course, someone is acting while saying this. He is saying something to ANOTHER. Ego is present. Ego, in fact, is the only real thing in 'world-appearing.'
Ehh...kind of sketchy way to describe it, but it's pretty much accurate.

This is not me endorsing your views, unwise.
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unwise
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Post by unwise »

Please do not endorse my views. Ever.

You make a lot of declarative statements. Am I to suppose by this that you claim to be enlightened? How would you know about enlightenment unless you were yourself enlightened? All the sources say that you must experience to know. If you are not enlightened, ask questions instead of pontificating. If you are enlightened, then plainly say so - not that it would matter or be true, but it would at least be LOGICAL.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

unwise wrote:How would you know about enlightenment unless you were yourself enlightened? ... it would at least be LOGICAL.
How would you know about logic unless you yourself were logical?
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