EVER BANGED A CHEAP PROSTITUTE?

[pierdog]

@ dejavu -- I respect the whore as much as she respects herself: as a whore who's worthy of anonymous affection and I respect her as such, in full agreement with Diebert's remark about whores being the few women who are honest to themselves about their true nature. She's materialistic, whoring to pay whoever smuggled her here, I can't respect her more than already. I'm a nice guy.

[Kunga]

The karma of self-serving and superficial mockery is very, very long in its life-cycle. It's best to steer clear of it in all its forms.

.

Please explain this in more detail. i wasn't aware i did that. do i do it often ?
it's interesting how others perceive things.
or are you just trying to jab me with something because i jabbed you ?

i seriously would like to tear apart this thing to understand how i was self-serving & superficial
i probebly do it all the time and don't realize it.

don't you think you're guilty of this also (posting your photo along with Zen Masters ?) (self serving)

lets kick the shit out of each other to purify ourselves.

[Kunga]

Better. How about Sex Goddess ?

Most pros are happy enough with the monetary price. Some want the 'john' to feed their delusions too. Yawning softy sure to follow, no refund.

Bzzzz. Wrong side of the transaction. Kunga, you ever been done by a service provider or is it all thoughtful thinking to ya.

No...only normal massages in the suburban spas.

However...i've given myself freely to men in the pursuit of love. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

i grew up in the era of free love.

Peace

[Pye]

Defining [in this case] prostitution as sex in exchange for something other than sex. Otherwise you just have two people having sex.

The common other-than-sex exchange is money. How many other kinds of exchanges are there? security; income; children fathering/support; social positioning; property; attention; help; unloneliness . . . . how many women have said just that - that they don't care for the [repetitive] sex with their mates, but they cannot do anything other than. Their sexual - in this case - service is the thread by which the whole thing hangs. Withdraw her sexual participation if in truth to herself, and he no longer has to give her any of these things. Society would agree. If she's not attending to his appetite, there is no marriage; that is not marriage. If she's having with him the simple exchange of sex for sex, that would be honesty. If either one of them are using sex in exchange for something else, by definition, it's prostituting the act.

So many prostitutes all around! Some of them tut-tutting over the 'traditional' prostitute from their own air-less circumstances! goodness, even the best courtesan practiced a most fruitful serial monogamy . . . how many women know and use sex for other not-sex purposes? consciously and manipulatively? how many women have sex with men they would rather not be with, but feel that they have to, because, because, because . . . ? - whenever she is obligated to maintain his attention for reasons other than that attention itself.

As long as sex/species service alone is seen as his only possible grounds for human commerce with her, then the only possible grounds for human commerce it will be. As long as she cannot self-stand economically and actually, with children or otherwise, there will always be the scent of concubinage around unhappy women concretely unable to move away from their mates. It will always smack of prostitution in some sense if it ultimately and only hangs by this one thread in exchange for something else; this one rate of exchange.

There would need to be other grounds of exchange - other reasons for men to have commerce with women, in project, intellect, friendship; one subjectivity having to recognize another. Just removing the exclusively sexual evaluation of women in favor of no commerce with them at all . . . ain't Tao.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Enshrouding your bigotry in dreamy metaphoric prose doesn't make it any less ugly, in fact, your brand of bigotry is even more insidious than the more ordinary, easily recognizable type, though it's still no less banal.

If you'd understand what was meant you wouldn't call it metaphoric, cowardly, dreamy, prosaic, ugly, insidious and banal all at the same time. And, if you think about it, that combination is pretty remarkable on its own accord!

But it was all not meant just metaphorically - as if there's anything outside the metaphors! The exchanges, the payments, the coinage, this all is very down to earth between people no matter how they hide behind pretty ideas. It comes down to a matter of preference of which style you want the transaction to find place: make no illusion!

Some want to push people like the criminal, the prostitute, the junk, the mental patient in one corner and feel themselves above it. My attempt is to turn it all around: to highlight our delusions are turning everybody into some criminal, whore, junk or severely deranged. This is not a word game to me, it's real. And I treat people exactly in this manner: their ability to be truthful counts, not their moral standing.

Oh, hi Pye! Agreed. But for 95% of the population I'm exposed to in one way or another your views seem far away and may die in subtlety and beauty. It would really help too if men would stop dreaming.

[Kunga]

what you say Pye is true. i've been in my present relationship only for survival purposes. i did leave him many times...but it was tough and i didn't want to go on welfare, or even think about finding another man...and with little children i thought security was more important than my freedom. had i stuck it out a little longer i would of made it. but i relate to the whore/prostitute because i myself have used my body for survival...even if only in a monogamous relationship. Sex keeps the peace.

[mensa-maniac]

the ancients treated prostitutes as Goddesses. They were respected then.

Mensa says: Not in Jesus's time were they respected. They were stoned to death. Mary Magdalene was a prostitute and was forgiven and became a Jesus follower. People weren't as civil as they are today, because we've mentally developed. People believe humanity has been on earth for millions of years, I say hog wash to that. Otherwise in Jesus's time or before that people would have been more mentally developed, more civil. Even today people are still uncivil.

http://www.moondance.org/1997/summer97/ ... sacred.htm

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution

Mensa says: The first link--moondance is infected with a virus, I haven't checked out the second link you've provided.

[Kunga]

moondance is infected with a virus, I haven't checked out the second link you've provided.

A STD ??? i just deleted it thanks mensa

[Carmel]

Diebert:
But it was all not meant just metaphorically - as if there's anything outside the metaphors! The exchanges, the payments, the coinage, this all is very down to earth between people no matter how they hide behind pretty ideas.

Carmel:
Yes, "people" being the key word here. Men, are by nature, whores too. It could easily be argued that they are more whorish than women and some of them engage in levels of depravity that most women could never even conceive of in their wildest imagination.
My criticism is not for calling women whores, but for the one sidedness of the analysis.

Diebert:
Some want to push people like the criminal, the prostitute, the junk, the mental patient in one corner and feel themselves above it. My attempt is to turn it all around: to highlight our delusions are turning everybody into some criminal, whore, junk or severely deranged.

Carmel:
Yes, our delusions are doing exactly that, yet you focus on the whorishness of women and didn't criticise pierdog's delusions. He's living in a fantasyland whereby he's trying to align himself with nobility to justify his own whorishness/slavish adherence to his baser, animal instincts. You're not doing him any favors by allowing him to live in the henids.

Incidentally, It's not that I think I'm better than him. He claims that he doesn't want to be an "obese sage", so I'm not really sure why he's posting other than to talk about where to put his genitals and feed his ego by falsely claiming superiority over women.

Diebert:
This is not a word game to me, it's real. And I treat people exactly in this manner: their ability to be truthful counts, not their moral standing.

Carmel:
That's good to know...and I agree with you, but I have witnessed you "spinning" in the past, you even admitted to doing so, so forgive me if I seemed a little leary of your motives.

Diebert:
Oh, hi Pye! Agreed. But for 95% of the population I'm exposed to in one way or another your views seem far away and may die in subtlety and beauty.

Carmel:
Far away...no, not if the feminists have anything to say about it. Did you know that what she wrote is what the feminists advocate, Diebert?

I heeded their warning and have never been financially dependant on a man. I think it's tragic that women have sex with men merely out of obligation or to "keep the peace". It's not only tragic for the women, but for the men, too.

On a related note, I don't know why some of the masculinists here criticize feminism when, in fact, they strive for the same main goal of trying to increase the consciousness of women(and men). For the record, I'm not a feminist, in the sense that I don't revere one gender over the other, but some of them do have valid goals and ideas, as you have unbewittingly(?) noted.
..but both feminism and masculinism become counterproductive when the participants become too militant, thereby distorting the core messages. I've seen this dynamic both here and among the feminists. It's not pretty.

Diebert:
It would really help too if men would stop dreaming.

Carmel:
Yes, it would.

...but if pierdog's going to continue on with his whoring, I think he should go all out...sport a spiffy crown and request that the whore call him "your majesty". :)

[Tomas]

...but if pierdog's going to continue on with his whoring, I think he should go all out...sport a spiffy crown and request that the whore call him "your majesty". :)

If I have read Pierdog correctly, the "prostitute" doesn't speak much English, and doesn't know if she is age-18.

Probably a victim of human trafficking .. slavery.

[pierdog]

@ dejavu --The way it works is: she must whore to pay back whoever brought her here, after which she can continue whoring & keep more of her money indefinitely OR look for a husband to marry & get citizenship. There's nothing to rescue her from, just be extra nice. Would you pursue her romantically?

[Carmel]

Tomas:
If I have read Pierdog correctly, the "prostitute" doesn't speak much English, and doesn't know if she is age-18.

Probably a victim of human trafficking .. slavery.

Carmel:
Yep, that may very well be the ugly reality of the situation.

"I see skies of blues, and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
And I think to myself, What a wonderful world" ~Louis Armstrong; What a Wonderful World

(yes, that was meant to be ironic)

Anyway, You're a good man, Tomas. :)

[pointexter]

No...only normal massages in the suburban spas.

Its not what you seem to imagine.

...i've given ...freely ...

in the pursuit of...

...free love.

Freely?

[Kunga]

Its not what you seem to imagine.

what are you talking about ?

Many women get massages for whatever their reasons...mine was stress related, and massage is healthy...it releases toxins that build up in your muscles, and the massages were given by women..i wouldn't want a strange man to massage me naked.

As a single person looking for love and dating, sex was part of a mutual interchange between adult persons. Sometimes it was when i was in love, sometimes being under the influence of drugs or alcohol...and i have paid my share of dinners and gift giving. I abhorred feeling like i owed the guy sex for taking me out..but yes, it did happen a few times. I always had money and didn't need someone to feed me. Nor have i ever been lavished with gifts or treated like a queen. Never was given jewelry or any expensive gifts. Sex was always a result of passionate impulses, not used for getting anything in return. Passionate sex is part of what happen when you fall in love. Sex is something that happens between people when they want to be intimate because they are attracted to each other.

I've been drunk and high many times and had sex with men i met at bars or party's. i felt like shit after. Luckly i never got any STDs.
The sad part is that all i ever wanted was to be loved.
Who dosen't ????
Most of my life i felt that men only wanted one thing from me.
Towards the end of my dating scene i hated going to bars...always looking for love in all the wrong places....
I never got married in a traditional wedding with the pretty dress & ring. And never cared.
i was always anti-establishment....that stuff was superficial to me.
All i wanted was to be loved.

[Kelly Jones]

Take the analogy of a drug pusher. He or she is very highly paid. They're taking a short-cut to wealth, but there are huge risks. Not only could they go to gaol in countries where drug trafficking is illegal, but they could be attacked by drug addicts, or be involved in gang wars. And, on top of that, they're responsible for worsening the lives of drug addicts, instead of helping them wean themselves off.

This perspective can quite easily be used with respect to prostitution. Yet when it comes to females, people seem always ready to regard them as victims, rather than responsible adults who are culpable for making bad choices in life.

.

[Kelly Jones]

The karma of self-serving and superficial mockery is very, very long in its life-cycle. It's best to steer clear of it in all its forms.

.

Please explain this in more detail. i wasn't aware i did that. do i do it often ?

All your posts are edgy with a sense of a hungry ego, dissatisfied and incomplete, and constantly on the look-out for praise, warmth, and acceptance. Your comments on unrequited love or dissatisfied romantic yearnings indicate it clearly. I'm not saying you ought to be embarrassed about that, but merely to try to recognise the dynamic. For instance, when you don't receive outright support, that edginess becomes quite strong, to the point of attacking bitterly those whom you perceive as being harmful and hurtful, even though they may not be anything of the sort.

it's interesting how others perceive things.
or are you just trying to jab me with something because i jabbed you ?

I noticed that you misunderstood my comments about flies. I didn't have anyone in mind, specifically, but you seemed to believe I was talking directly about you. That speaks of a fragility, which colours your perceptions.

i seriously would like to tear apart this thing to understand how i was self-serving & superficial
i probebly do it all the time and don't realize it.

I don't think you have to tear anything apart.

don't you think you're guilty of this also (posting your photo along with Zen Masters ?) (self serving)

lets kick the shit out of each other to purify ourselves.

I don't think tearing people apart or kicking shit out of them would be of much benefit, either.

The portraits of bachelors were of a range of different levels of wisdom. I regard myself to be among those bachelors, who, you may have noticed, also included persons like Thomas Merton, Dave Sim, Jonathan Swift, and de Mirandola. These men were bachelors of varying degrees of chastity, but none of whom could be called masters of wisdom.

.

[Kunga]

[quote="Kelly Jones"]All your posts are edgy with a sense of a hungry ego, dissatisfied and incomplete, and constantly on the look-out for praise, warmth, and acceptance. Your comments on unrequited love or dissatisfied romantic yearnings indicate it clearly. I'm not saying you ought to be embarrassed about that, but merely to try to recognise the dynamic. For instance, when you don't receive outright support, that edginess becomes quite strong, to the point of attacking bitterly those whom you perceive as being harmful and hurtful, even though they may not be anything of the sort.


***

I'm not looking for anything...just being myself and trying to contribute to these conversations with my life experiences to better understand myself and help others understand something of the mind of a woman. You do your share of attacking those that oppose your views. As far as the flies go, you were attacking those that you perceive as not worthy...i have a strong defense mechanism towards injustice and arrogant spewing.

Just who were you refering to as "flies" then ?
Why did you have to interject this compairison ?
It sounds self-serving to me.
Not everyone here is a Genius or intellectual ...do you consider them beneath you ???
Why don't they just close this form to Genius/Intellectual types ?

I'm not looking for praise, warmth, or acceptance .
i'm just enjoying being here learning and having fun.
i feel secure in myself and complete....except for having a deep yearning for truth & love (oops ) :)
and i do appreciate these criticisms
even though i cringe to read them
but i think it's interesting to see how others percieve me.

i don't care about impressing or acting pretentious...
you don't learn anything if your not yourself & honest

[Steven Coyle]

The man at the door collects dollar bills for the lone ghost...

[jupiviv]

Honest to God... one will only find two kinds of honest women in this world, honesty as in being able to be truthful to oneself, knowing ones nature: the first kind you'll probably find amongst the prostitutes, the other kind would be men.

You mean all women are whores? I wouldn't agree with that. It would be more accurate to say that all women place value on emotions above anything else, and prostitution is just a part of it.

If women are whores it's because men made them that way.
why isn't there an equivalent word for a loose man ?
it's because society/men think women should be chaste/virgins...unless married...
but men have always had the perogative of being free to be sexual, if not required as a right of passage...

the infamous double standard.

there are male prostitutes also don't forget

Well, I definitely agree that women are whores because of men. And as I mentioned in the post, men who are politicians and businessmen exhibit prostitute-like attributes. However, the prostitute element tends not to be the core of most men's psychology, just as the father element(having children) doesn't form the core of their psychology. Men generally have a strong core of masculinity, which women lack.

As for the double standard regarding promiscuous men - I don't believe there is one. A lock which can be opened by a lot of keys is a bad lock, but a key which can open a lot of locks is a good key. Men are the ones who "buy" women, so they're not whores, but rather the patronisers of whores.

[Kelly Jones]

As far as the flies go, you were attacking those that you perceive as not worthy...i have a strong defense mechanism towards injustice and arrogant spewing.

Just who were you refering to as "flies" then ?
Why did you have to interject this compairison ?
It sounds self-serving to me.
Not everyone here is a Genius or intellectual ...do you consider them beneath you ???
Why don't they just close this form to Genius/Intellectual types ?

"Flies" are the persons or mindstates who are attracted to the appearance of wisdom in others, but don't see the essence. For instance, they like what appears to them to be psychological stability, generosity, the deep sense of humour, lack of anger, patience, freedom of thought, and unusual ideas, of the wise. It's a trip out of their ordinary, shallow, dissatisfying lives where they can leave aside their worries and access the peacefulness and strength they long for. But, because they don't see the essence, and are just attaching themselves to illusions, they can be easily disturbed, and become "buzzy".

I was not attacking them per se, but pointing out the futility of being upset by their behaviour, as well as to the futility in engaging them directly in philosophical discussions. It was a pointed comment to encourage greater focus, and less encouragement to the insane chattering that has been happening a lot lately, and had very little arrogance, or injustice in its nature.

This kind of discrimination is open and rational. Everyone discriminates, even if they are unaware of doing so.

I'm not looking for praise, warmth, or acceptance .
i'm just enjoying being here learning and having fun.
i feel secure in myself and complete....except for having a deep yearning for truth & love (oops ) :)
and i do appreciate these criticisms
even though i cringe to read them
but i think it's interesting to see how others percieve me.

i don't care about impressing or acting pretentious...
you don't learn anything if your not yourself & honest

If you were not looking for love from others, you would not be upset by my comments, which are rational, fair-minded, and oriented to truthfulness.

.

[jupiviv]

I don't know why some of the masculinists here criticize feminism when, in fact, they strive for the same main goal of trying to increase the consciousness of women(and men).

"Freedom"(if that's what you're referring to) may not always mean consciousness. In my view, feminists advocate freedom(financial independence, etc.) within a "bubble" created by men. Feminism as it occurs in humanity is mostly a function of some social conditions which allow women access to some areas of society.

The Pashtun is a tribe in Afghanistan - the tribe from which the Taliban were formed. This tribe has been engaged in warfare of one kind or another right since the time when Alexander passed through the Khorasan plateau to enter India. Their position on women is - "a woman's place is either in the home, or in the grave." A feminist would view this as terrible oppression, but what it really is, is an adaptation to the situation they live in. Women carry the children, so they are not expendable. As everything outside the "home" is basically a war in progress, women simply can't be allowed to "fly free", as it were, without endangering the survival of the tribe's genes.

[Kelly Jones]

The underlying reason why it's not ethical to use a prostitute is because prostitutes generally are emotionally needy. They offer sex because they don't see that they have anything more valuable to offer. The basic principle is about not exploiting others: not paying them for services that are likely to decrease their chances of becoming wise.

Of course, this principle is difficult to enact when virtually everyone thinks self-prostitution is acceptable and decent, whether they are offering sex, or their body and mind as a labourer. But probably the worst kind of prostitution to encourage is love, because it affects the mind so dramatically and lastingly.

.

[Kunga]

i'm not looking for love HERE...i mean in general...i feel something is missing in my life...even though i feel complete (paradox)
as for your justifications ...everyone thinks they are rational, fair and truthful in their own way...we just have different ways of expressing it
it would be pretty boring here if we all philosophised and spoke the same way... like herd mentality if you ask me...
i love this form with all the various personalities and the freedom of speech...unlike most forms i've been in.
too much philosophical disscussion is boreing and dry...i don't participate in those discussions anyways...not all discussions here are philosophically oriented

i'm not the only one upset by some of your comments.
everyone here gets upset from time to time by what others have said
but i will try to do less chattering and talking about my personal life
my intention is to expose myself to learn and help others to learn
even if it embarrasses...or sounds foolish...there is something to learn
about human nature and sufferring

[Kunga]

the worst kind of prostitution to encourage is love

Please give an example, i'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this statement .

[Kelly Jones]

everyone thinks they are rational, fair and truthful in their own way...we just have different ways of expressing it

If everyone actually is rational, fair and truthful, then there is no meaning to rationality, fairness, or truthfulness. There is no contrast by which to judge.

Rationality has to have an absolute basis, otherwise nothing can be said to be rational. Same goes for fairness and truth.

Kelly: the worst kind of prostitution to encourage is love

Kunga: Please give an example

Love is attachment.

.