Wisdom of the Infinite - Part One by David Quinn

Some partial backups of posts from the past (Feb, 2004)

re:

Postby David Quinn » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:57 am

Unknnown wrote:

Quote:
Quote:<hr> David is as much monkey as any human.

You all humans are belief whores.

All you will find is your belief not TRUTH.

Truth can't be explained in words. Quit it people.

Enlightenment = eat + sleep + shit (again and again in a finite loop) <hr>
Is this merely your belief or is it the truth?


Quote:
Quote:<hr> Quit it monkeys. You all will certainly DIE LIKE CRAP irrespective of what beliefs you have or what "Rich" label knowledge you have.

Understand this JESUS died like CRAP , Buddha as well.

Do not follow any one who dies like CRAP. <hr>
The fact that we all die says nothing, one way or the other, about our ability to comprehend Truth. It is irrelevent.

It is like arguing that a plane can never get off the ground, or a computer can never solve a particular problem, because they will both eventually fall apart and cease to exist.
User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

Re: To Dan

Postby N0X23 » Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:21 pm

Quote:
Quote:<hr>Oh God, not another one. Won't anyone take responsibility for what they say? <hr>


Quote:
Quote:<hr>Since you don't even believe in your own words, I won't waste my time on them anymore. <hr>


hhmmm... okay?

Mr. Quinn, If you would allow me to waste just a minute more of your time?

When I first found this forum I was interested in the discussion going on here, especially your opinion's on Enlightenment, so I figured that you might want to engage in an open dialog concerning this subject, so I started in to see what type of response and reaction I would receive to certain topics and subjects from you.

Almost immediately you were making assumptions about me and my character, calling me names and looking to dismiss anything I had to say as "meaningless" "a value worth "None" and a waste of your time.

How is dismissing me as a waste of your time, helping me along the path to my Enlightenment, Mr. Quinn?

It now appears that you use your Enlightenment as a shield, as opposed to a guiding light for us "ordinary schmucks", you seem to be more interested in defending your personal interests than helping others.

What I found interesting is that you wear your Enlightenment as a Badge of Honor and a position of assumed elevation, which is very off putting to say the least.

It appears that you have confused egoism with egotism. Perhaps in the future when you are presented with questions regarding your lofty self proclaimed pedestal, you should refer people to your written work and spare them the unpleasant experience of being subjected to your pride full, insecure and defensive ego.

Now with regard to myself ...I do not claim to be Enlightened, Unenlightened, openly, secretly or other wise, I have found no use in these arbitrary titles and conceptual identifications, they are completely irrelevant.

The only "claim" that I will Copt to if pressed is that I am Aware, nothing more, nothing less, no books, no titles, no urge to pull the plank from my brothers eye, no messianic complex, no latent guruness, no infinite wisdom... just Aware.

When I stated that I do not believe that what I am saying is fact, does not mean that I do not accept responsibility for my words, what I meant was that I am not so arrogant to assume that my OPINION and PERSPECTIVE on any one subject should be considered fact.

Now would it be possible for you to come down from your Brahmans Throne and answer this lowly, arrogant, waste of time, a few questions and help me remove some of my delusion and ignorance?









Edited by: N0X23  <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://formlessmountain.com/images/zen.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 11/22/03 2:29 am
N0X23
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:21 pm

Brahmans Throne

Postby Paul » Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:55 pm

Geez. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, N0X23! *shivering*
Paul
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:26 pm

Re: To Dan

Postby David Quinn » Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:25 am

NOX23 wrote:

Quote:
Quote:<hr> Mr. Quinn, If you would allow me to waste just a minute more of your time?

When I first found this forum I was interested in the discussion going on here, especially your opinion's on Enlightenment, so I figured that you might want to engage in an open dialog concerning this subject, so I started in to see what type of response and reaction I would receive to certain topics and subjects from you.

Almost immediately you were making assumptions about me and my character, calling me names and looking to dismiss anything I had to say as "meaningless" "a value worth "None" and a waste of your time. <hr>
You really need to lighten up. Don't be so serious! I guess when you said that you never took anything seriously, it was just another case of your words not conveying fact. I see how it works now.


Quote:
Quote:<hr> How is dismissing me as a waste of your time, helping me along the path to my Enlightenment, Mr. Quinn? <hr>
You had already dismissed yourself ("nothing I say is fact"), and me ("anyone claims to be enlightened is deluded"). As such, you had already severed all possible avenues of communication from the outset. I'm merely having a laugh at it all. You must admit, it is very funny!


Quote:
Quote:<hr> Now with regard to myself ...I do not claim to be Enlightened, Unenlightened, openly, secretly or other wise, I have found no use in these arbitrary titles and conceptual identifications, they are completely irrelevant. <hr>
Then why do you get so upset when other people use them?


Quote:
Quote:<hr> The only "claim" that I will Copt to if pressed is that I am Aware, nothing more, nothing less, no books, no titles, no urge to pull the plank from my brothers eye, no messianic complex, no latent guruness, no infinite wisdom... just Aware. <hr>
As opposed to Unaware, I suppose, which all the unfortunate plebs of this world are mired in.


Quote:
Quote:<hr> When I stated that I do not believe that what I am saying is fact, does not mean that I do not accept responsibility for my words, what I meant was that I am not so arrogant to assume that my OPINION and PERSPECTIVE on any one subject should be considered fact. <hr>
What a load of crap.


Quote:
Quote:<hr> Now would it be possible for you to come down from your Brahmans Throne and answer this lowly, arrogant, waste of time, a few questions and help me remove some of my delusion and ignorance? <hr>
Remove something that you don't consider relevent in order to attain something that you think is completely meaningless? That would be quite a challenge.

Look, before we can even begin to communicate you really need to think more clearly about these basic issues. As it stands, your mind is awash with all sort of contradictions and false paradoxes and I believe your only real hope is to be jolted violently out of it.
User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

Re: Wisdom of the Infinite - Part One by David Quinn

Postby N0X23 » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:34 am

Quote:
Quote:<hr>You really need to lighten up. Don't be so serious! I guess when you said that you never took anything seriously, it was just another case of your words not conveying fact. I see how it works now.<hr>


LOL!

Quote:
Quote:<hr>You must admit, it is very funny! <hr>


Agreed.

Quote:
Quote:<hr>which all the unfortunate plebs of this world are mired in.<hr>


Its really not in my best interest to generalize and speculate, but be me guest, mate.

Quote:
Quote:<hr>Remove something that you don't consider relevant in order to attain something that you think is completely meaningless? That would be quite a challenge<hr>
.

Yes, it has proven to be quite a challenge to say the least.

Quote:
Quote:<hr>Look, before we can even begin to communicate you really need to think more clearly about these basic issues. As it stands, your mind is awash with all sort of contradictions and false paradoxes.<hr>



You see that's the funny thing these are the basics.
You are right my mind does appear to be lost within in contradictions are paradoxes but it is not I who is awash, but the theories them selves, it's a Perennial issue really, the daunting task of merging the teachings of no-self and not-self and to learn how they correlate to Anatta and Sunyatta.

See the tricky thing is they both claim that they will lead to the same destination, but it currently appears that only one will lead to Liberation while the other leads to a purely nihilistic state.

So that is the reason for the seemingly nonsensical responses, half of them are from the view of no-self and the other are from the ideology of not-self, plus just a dash of UG thrown in for a quaint smack on the ass.( I did enjoy your scathing critique of UG, BTW) and the occasional probing for integrity...feel free to insert the appropriate innuendo to that last part.




Quote:
Quote:<hr>I believe your only real hope is to be jolted violently out of it. <hr>


Too late.
N0X23
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:21 pm

Re: Wisdom of the Infinite - Part One by David Quinn

Postby Paul » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:46 am

Indepth soul searching reply. Yes. No.
Oh no.
Love ya just the same.
Paul
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:26 pm

Re: Wisdom of the Infinite - Part One by David Quinn

Postby meself » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:13 pm

N0X23: it is not I who is awash, but the theories them selves ... Anatta.

It is you who are awash!

According to the Pali Canon the Buddha said that to hold either view that there is a self or that there is no-self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible.

Why? Because holding either view places you in bondage which is quite contrary to Buddhist teaching.
meself
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:13 pm

Re: Wisdom of the Infinite - Part One by David Quinn

Postby N0X23 » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:39 pm

Quote:
Quote:<hr>It is you who are awash!<hr>


Shit! Are you serious ?!

Quote:
Quote:<hr>According to the Pali Canon the Buddha said that to hold either view that there is a self or that there is no-self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible.<hr>

What is this Pali Cannon that you speak of?

Quote:
Quote:<hr>Why? Because holding either view places you in bondage which is quite contrary to Buddhist teaching.<hr>


Just out of curiosity Meself.
Have you had any practical experience with either Doctrine/Technique that you can share with me, or are you in essence just another rhetoric spewing Christian chock-fulla' dogma and cliche?
N0X23
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:21 pm

Re: Wisdom of the Infinite - Part One by David Quinn

Postby meself » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:17 am

N0X23: Have you had any practical experience with either Doctrine/Technique that you can share with me or are you in essence just another rhetoric spewing Christian chock-fulla' dogma and cliche?

Well, I wouldn't say Christian, and my essence is my own affair.

I have already shared something relevant with you. However, feel free to ask and if possible I will answer.



meself
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:13 pm

Re: Wisdom of the Infinite - Part One by David Quinn

Postby David Quinn » Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:55 am

NOX23 wrote:

Quote:
Quote:<hr> You are right my mind does appear to be lost within in contradictions are paradoxes but it is not I who is awash, but the theories them selves, it's a Perennial issue really, the daunting task of merging the teachings of no-self and not-self and to learn how they correlate to Anatta and Sunyatta. <hr>
The contradictions that I speak of have nothing to do with theories about no-self and sunyatta and so on. They are far more mundane than that.

For example, you had written:

Now with regard to myself ...I do not claim to be Enlightened, Unenlightened, openly, secretly or other wise, I have found no use in these arbitrary titles and conceptual identifications, they are completely irrelevant.

The only "claim" that I will Copt to if pressed is that I am Aware, nothing more, nothing less, no books, no titles, no urge to pull the plank from my brothers eye, no messianic complex, no latent guruness, no infinite wisdom... just Aware.


Aware of what exactly? If you mean awareness of Reality, then that is enlightenment. If you don't mean awareness of Reality, but merely awareness of anything at all, then what you say above is meaningless due to the fact that everyone in the human race is aware of something.

Again, one has the impression that you're trying to claim a significant spiritual achievement through the back door, as it were, without having the courage and honesty to admit it openly. This has nothing to do with theories about Reality. It is simply duplicity on your part.


User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

Re: Wisdom of the Infinite - Part One by David Quinn

Postby N0X23 » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:20 pm

Awareness of Reality is what it is, if you feel the need to interpret it as a significant spiritual achievement, so be it. I do not attach the same significance to it as you seem to.

Mr. Quinn why do you cherish a fleeting moment?

What I find interesting about your claims of achievement is that one of the three confines that are severed are self view, this is to include self identity, such as the concepts of Enlightened, Unenlightened...etc, the very question(s) of "What Am I?" or "What AM I Not?" are but entanglements in the thicket of views.

It appears that you are still clinging to the fetter of attachment to continuity, the desire for permanence in a state of flux.

Mr. Quinn what aspect of your/self do you think is Enlightened?

Why are you focusing on me? It is not my web site nor is it my claim to be a Genius or to poses " Wisdom of the Infinite"

Why are you using petty ego-triggers such as honesty, courage and duplicity, what are you really looking for?






Edited by: N0X23  <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://formlessmountain.com/images/zen.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 11/25/03 5:24 am
N0X23
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:21 pm

Ah, the hidden guru emerges...

Postby Dan Rowden » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:41 am

I'll take bets on how long he'll stay...

User avatar
Dan Rowden
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 8:03 pm

Re: Wisdom of the Infinite - Part One by David Quinn

Postby N0X23 » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:50 pm

Quote:
Quote:<hr>Ah, the hidden guru emerges...<hr>


LOL...Guru my ass! I aint getting paid for this shit ;)
N0X23
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:21 pm

Re: Ah, the hidden guru emerges...

Postby Dan Rowden » Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:09 pm

Not yet................
User avatar
Dan Rowden
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 8:03 pm

Regularities

Postby MGregory » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:24 am

Hey David, in the first chapter under the heading "The Theory of Everything", first paragraph, you wrote:

"Even statistical-based theories which do not have to assume causality for their functioning, but merely map regularities of behaviour in large populations, are ultimately dependent upon the existence of causation. For without causation, there can be no regularities."

That seems like a pretty bold statement to me. Could you elaborate on that? Why do regularities depend on causation?
MGregory
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:46 pm

Re: Regularities

Postby David Quinn » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:52 pm

Because, by definition, an uncaused event arises without the help of any preceding causal conditions, which means that any factors that could regulate its appearance or behaviour would be absent.

Uncausality, by its very nature, has the complete freedom to choose from the entire infinite range of possible forms in any given moment. Thus, the chances of it throwing up two successive events that resemble one another are infinitely remote.
User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

Re: Regularities

Postby MGregory » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:49 pm

Well it was stated that the statisticians are studying populations, so presumably their results would be constricted by the populations they are studying, but what if there was some uncaused component of human behavior? Couldn't the restrictions of human abilities create regularities in a chain of small, uncaused events? Maybe the mental direction of people consumed with emotion is uncaused for example. By that I mean the directionlessness would be caused by emotion, the substance of the chain of thought once directed would be caused by past experiences, but the cause of the person taking one tack over another would be absent. Maybe a quark suddenly popped into existence in the person's head and the stress of the decision between Coke and Pepsi makes them vulnerable to the influence of random quarks or something.
MGregory
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:46 pm

Clarification

Postby MGregory » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:19 am

What I'm really objecting to is the act of refuting uncausation by virtue of some property that it has. But is it really possible for uncausation to have any properties at all? It seems to me that in a sense no object can be directly perceived, only perceived via its properties, or its causes. But if something is uncaused then how can it be perceived, having no causes in which to perceive it with?

Maybe that's a little clearer.
MGregory
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:46 pm

Re: Clarification

Postby David Quinn » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:20 am

Matt wrote:

Quote:
Quote:<hr> Well it was stated that the statisticians are studying populations, so presumably their results would be constricted by the populations they are studying, but what if there was some uncaused component of human behavior? Couldn't the restrictions of human abilities create regularities in a chain of small, uncaused events? Maybe the mental direction of people consumed with emotion is uncaused for example. By that I mean the directionlessness would be caused by emotion, the substance of the chain of thought once directed would be caused by past experiences, but the cause of the person taking one tack over another would be absent. Maybe a quark suddenly popped into existence in the person's head and the stress of the decision between Coke and Pepsi makes them vulnerable to the influence of random quarks or something. <hr>
As I mentioned in the book, it is impossible for there to be incidents or pockets of uncausality within the Universe because of the fact that any kind of existence is necessarily dependent upon causal conditions. A quark arising at a particular location, for example, is dependent on there not being any forces at that location to prevent its arisal.

In the end, an uncaused event is a contradiction in terms and can no more exist in the real world than a square circle can. So while it is possible, at least in theory, that quarks coming into existence can influence our decisions, there is no possibility that the quarks themselves are uncaused.


Quote:
Quote:<hr> What I'm really objecting to is the act of refuting uncausation by virtue of some property that it has. But is it really possible for uncausation to have any properties at all? <hr>
Yes, it has the property of not having any causes, which in turn means that its occurance is entirely unpredictable and incapable of being regulated. These properties are inherent in the very definition of uncausality, even though it is a phenomenon which can never exist in the real world.



User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

Re: Clarification

Postby MGregory » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:51 am

David wrote:
Quote:
Quote:<hr>A quark arising at a particular location, for example, is dependent on there not being any forces at that location to prevent its arisal.<hr>

The lack of a presence of a preventative force is a negative thing, a nothing. I don't see how an existence can logically come from a non-existence.
This could only be true if a physical cause is just so only because it's imagined that it is a physical cause and for no other reason, which would make causation unreal, which would mean nothing has a real cause.


Quote:
Quote:<hr>Yes, it has the property of not having any causes, which in turn means that its occurance is entirely unpredictable and incapable of being regulated.<hr>

I don't see how those two follow from the first. With an infinite number of causes, things are unpredictable anyway. Why would uncausality make something even more unpredictable? Why not more predictable? Does reducing the number of causes increase unpredictability? In the second case, a regularity doesn't have to be regulated necessarily, it could arise out of sheer randomness, like flipping a coin 5 times and getting 5 heads in a row. You could make the argument about odds, but you know the old saying, "There are lies, damn lies..." How could a statistical measurement be approached anyway? What would you compare it with as a basis for 100% probability?
MGregory
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:46 pm

Re: Where is the rest?

Postby Thomas Knierim » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:34 pm

So what about part 2 and part 3, David?

Should you have decided to discontinue the book, I must congratulate you on that idea.

Thomas
Thomas Knierim
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 6:20 pm

Re: what is the answer

Postby David Quinn » Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:44 am

Bird wrote:

Quote:
Quote:<hr>David this is a huge topic, although one I am quite interested in. There are several reasons I think he was talking about ancient tribal ways that included ancient sages, but society as well. He (and others) made several comments about how people once lived that are pretty good descriptions of life before civilization got out of control. Civilization takes literally thousands of years to slowly and slowly obliterate the old ways. The old ways are a profound part of who we are because they lasted for hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of years. There's a lot of ignorance and prejudice about what tribal life was like.

It may be growing pains, and we may ultimately gain great consciousness, but at this time I can say from what I have studied on the topic, that we are considerably less conscious and less spiritually evolved and aware than many tribes.<hr>
Speak for yourself!

I'm not aware of any tribesman possessing even a thousandth of the wisdom of a Kierkegarrd or Lao Tzu or a Nietzsche. I think you are romanticizing a past which never existed.

But then again, your conceptions of spirituality and wisdom are very different to mine.


Quote:
Quote:<hr>One thing that impresses me is how strong the spiritual life of tribal peoples is, how most of them "get it" and how similar it is to the greater and most ancient insights of religion, most especially Taoism. Essentially, the human religion is animism or pantheism.<hr>
There is no connection at all between the Taoism of Lao Tzu and the animism/pantheism of tribal existence. Tuning into the nature of Ultimate Reality (the Tao) has nothing to do with weaving simplistic stories about spirits and projecting them onto the environment.


Quote:
Quote:<hr>One thought I have repeatedly as I read the writings of American Indians, is that they quite naturally lived as Christians, and they easily saw through the hypocracy of the white settlers. They were ungreedy, lived communally, were full of laughter and enjoyed tremendous leisure time, which they quite consciously considered necessary for their spiritual life. It was important to them to engage in spiritual contemplation, especially about what they called "The Great Mystery." <hr>
Many Christians believe that the "Great Mystery" of the universe is how the one God can manifest into three entities - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



Quote:
Quote:<hr> I am convinced the great mystery is - the fact of that anything exists. That is the one that breaks my brain and blows it apart. <hr>
Why? Do you imagine that nothing existing at all is somehow the natural state of affairs, without any need for further explanation, and that things existing is an inexplicable overturning of this?

I personally don't find the existence of things a mystery because I know that everything is a manifestation of Reality, and Reality cannot help but be.


Quote:
Quote:<hr>DQ: The only way to affect genuine political change is by changing people's psychology.

Bird: Yes, that was/is exactly the problem. But I don't know about changing people's psychology either. Reeducation camps? <hr>
Yes, like Genius Forum.
User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

what is the answer

Postby birdofhermes » Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:02 am

Quote:
Quote:<hr>but at this time I can say from what I have studied on the topic, that we are considerably less conscious and less spiritually evolved and aware than many tribes.
-------------------------------------------------------
Speak for yourself!<hr>


I was not speaking for you or me, but for civilized society.

Quote:
Quote:<hr>I'm not aware of any tribesman possessing even a thousandth of the wisdom of a Kierkegarrd or Lao Tzu or a Nietzsche. I think you are romanticizing a past which never existed.<hr>


Such hyperbole! A thousandth? Why I'd give even a serial killer credit for a thousandth part of wisdom and a southern Baptist two or three thousandths.

I believe it was in my cage discussion that I quoted a conversation between a tribal boy and a missionary, in which the tribal boy's answer to the missionary was way over the missionary's head, and struck me as exactly what I am learning from Lao Tsu. Am I to assume that this boy was an unusual boy in his tribe? Also note, that I have read many preserved quotations and speeches from American Indians in particular, and so I know how much wisdom they had. Your remark about weaving simplistic stories shows that you really don't know much about the topic. Do you think it is wise to forget 98% of human history without examining it? The reason we have the wisdom of the Tao in this world is because ancient people were closer to its wisdom - tribal people. Consider that their IQs were at least at high as ours, and that they had more leisure time to contemplate, that they valued contemplation, and had arguably less impediments by way of neurosis and distractions.

Quote:
Quote:<hr>But then again, your conceptions of spirituality and wisdom are very different to mine. <hr>
I don't think they are so different. Mine is richer and more all-encompassing than yours, of course, but what do you see as being different about them?

Quote:
Quote:<hr>Many Christians believe that the "Great Mystery" of the universe is how the one God can manifest into three entities - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. <hr>
Is your point, then, that the American Indians were on a more profound level?

The Trinity is a worthy mystery to ponder, tho. There's a lot in it. The Tao Te Ching has the same mystery.

Quote:
Quote:<hr>Why? Do you imagine that nothing existing at all is somehow the natural state of affairs, without any need for further explanation, and that things existing is an inexplicable overturning of this? <hr>
No! I find them both equally impossible.

Quote:
Quote:<hr>I personally don't find the existence of things a mystery because I know that everything is a manifestation of Reality, and Reality cannot help but be.<hr>
Yes.

Oh, but it is all too much!

birdofhermes
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:34 pm

Re: what is the answer

Postby David Quinn » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:21 am

Bird wrote:

Quote:
Quote:<hr>Bird: but at this time I can say from what I have studied on the topic, that we are considerably less conscious and less spiritually evolved and aware than many tribes.

DQ: Speak for yourself!

Bird: I was not speaking for you or me, but for civilized society. <hr>
In my eyes, civilized society is a lot more conscious and evolved than tribal humanity. Our faculty for abstract thought is far more developed, for example, as is our sense of individuality. We may have lost our childlike/animalistic sense of connection with the Universe, but that is easy enough to recover with wisdom.

Tribal culture is like an innocent seven-year old child, whereas modern Western civilization is like a cynical, hyper-sexual 14 year-old girl. Retrogressing back to the mind of a seven-year old would be a major backwards step, in my opinion. It would be better to push on and become a mature, rational, enlightened society.



Quote:
Quote:<hr>I believe it was in my cage discussion that I quoted a conversation between a tribal boy and a missionary, in which the tribal boy's answer to the missionary was way over the missionary's head, and struck me as exactly what I am learning from Lao Tsu. Am I to assume that this boy was an unusual boy in his tribe? <hr>
It isn't very difficult to go over a missionary's head. They aren't all that bright, you know. All it takes is the merest semblance of a thought.



Quote:
Quote:<hr> Also note, that I have read many preserved quotations and speeches from American Indians in particular, and so I know how much wisdom they had. Your remark about weaving simplistic stories shows that you really don't know much about the topic. <hr>
What's an example of their wisdom which isn't a weaved simplistic story?



Quote:
Quote:<hr>DQ: But then again, your conceptions of spirituality and wisdom are very different to mine.

Bird: I don't think they are so different. Mine is richer and more all-encompassing than yours, of course, <hr>
Your "richness" is a result of you not knowing how to discriminate. But beware: It is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.


Quote:
Quote:<hr> but what do you see as being different about them? <hr>
You have no idea what it means to open up one's being to the Infinite, which is beyond mysticism.


User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

what is the answer

Postby birdofhermes » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:45 am

The "eye of the needle" is actually the name of the narrowest gate into the city of Jerusalem, and was sometimes the last to close at night. So it was barely possible to push a camel through it. However, it was possible.

Quote:
Quote:<hr>Your "richness" is a result of you not knowing how to discriminate.<hr>
I discriminate all day long. No, I think my richness, actually, is a result of my ability to see patterns. But you didn't answer the question - how is my conception of wisdom and spirituality different than yours?

Quote:
Quote:<hr>You have no idea what it means to open up one's being to the Infinite, which is beyond mysticism.<hr>

Prove it! And do you admit to having failed so badly with your student? After all this time I have no idea?!

Well, I thought I'd look up mysticism. It seems to be about contemplation and union with God. I don't so much seek to UNITE with God as to BE God. Anyway, I'm not sure what sorts of thoughts are mystical and which aren't. Are all my contemplations mystical? At what point in contemplating Reality do your thoughts cease to by mystical?

I think I need to go find a book for inspiration on the Indian question. Soon.
birdofhermes
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:34 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests

cron