Shurangama Sutra

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Kevin Solway
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Shurangama Sutra

Post by Kevin Solway »

The Shurangama Sutra can be dowloaded from the following URL, in 8 PDF files.

<a href="http://www.gbm-online.com/Sutras.asp" target="top">www.gbm-online.com/Sutras.asp</a>

It includes a commentary by Hsuan Hua which seems quite reasonable.

It would make an interesting discussion topic if anyone is interested.

"The Ultimate Extinction of the Dharma Sutra" names the Shurangama Sutra as an indicator for the ultimate extinction of the Dharma. That is, it will be one of the first sutras to be consigned to oblivion, or not understood by its readers.

cassiopeiae
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by cassiopeiae »

Thanks for the link...

This is a big undertaking...2400 pages, and so far, it seems like an interesting topic (er...insights, not sure of the right word) to discuss. Did you have something in particular you would like to start with? possibly with sections, I see they are outlined for reference which is extrememly convenient...This is rather new to me, but I am willing to give it a go...
jimhaz
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by jimhaz »

Looks like a waste of time to me (apart from the summary maybe). Use your own mind.

Which leads me to the following questions

Why would a supposedly enlightened person bother reading such works?
In what way would it improve on their ability to reason?

All life needs moderation in anything they do or it spins out of control and burns up in some fashion. Is reason any different?

Is the mental change from near-enlightened to thinking one is enlightened, simply a non-emotional mental breakdown causing a form of autism, a total immersion in thinking, where the love of logic becomes the reason for their existence, and which ultimately leads to an inability to spread reason to others in the most efficient manner as too much of the personality of the person is removed?

If that were so then it might be better to never achieve enlightenment, but only approach it. Somewhat like Dan maybe, at least the writing of not to over the top books and scripts is a practical application of wisdom, in that it allows reason to be spread across more people.

The QRS say they only seek the true thinkers, one or two people per city. Is not this ludicrous! Why would it not be better to spread less reason amongst more people.

Reason leads to more reason, so some of the people who could gain an increased degree of reasoning ability would move on to higher levels of reason and the world would end a better place.

Makes sense to me.

The QRS are not fully wise, although they have far fewer delusions that anyone else I’ve read on these forums.
Edited by: jimhaz at: 2/3/04 9:40 am
cassiopeiae
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by cassiopeiae »

Quote:Quote:<hr> The Buddha is the only one who has nothing left to learn.
-Shurangama Sutra, Individuals Able to Receive the Teaching<hr>

Quote:Quote:<hr>jimhaz: Why would a supposedly enlightened person bother reading such works?
In what way would it improve on their ability to reason?<hr>

Exactly...I found myself asking the same questions half way through the introduction...
Kevin Solway
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by Kevin Solway »

JimHaz wrote:

Quote:Quote:<hr>"The Buddha is the only one who has nothing left to learn."
-Shurangama Sutra, Individuals Able to Receive the Teaching

jimhaz: Why would a supposedly enlightened person bother reading such works? In what way would it improve on their ability to reason?<hr>

There is a distinction to be made between an enlightened person and a Buddha. The enlightened person knows everything to do with Truth, but a Buddha is a perfected enlightened person, who has no lingering, subtle habits. [Incidentally, there may have never existed such a person - there's no way we can know]

A person might read such works for the following reasons:

1. Simply to help keep their mind focused on Truth, helping to reinforce the work they have already done.

2. To exercise their mind in a variety of ways, keeping the mind active and alert.

3. To gain an extended vocabulary, and to learn different ways of explaining the same truth, which might come in handy some day. And also to help in understanding some of the Buddhist jargon if one ever has to speak to Buddhists.

4. To find out why "The Ultimate Extinction of the Dharma Sutra" thinks this particular sutra is so important.
cassiopeiae
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by cassiopeiae »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: There is a distinction to be made between an enlightened person and a Buddha. The enlightened person knows everything to do with Truth, but a Buddha is a perfectedenlightened person, who has no lingering, subtle habits. [Incidentally, there may have never existed such a person - there's no way we can know]<hr>

Well, from the Buddhist perspective, there are various degrees prior to becoming a Buddha, none of which knows everything to do with Truth. Also, I have been reading up on the Four Noble Truths, in which there has been said numerous times that no one can know everything while still in the "appearance" (physical) form - anything with "appearance" is false. This is why it is advised for the wise to continuously "clear the cobwebs" and refresh their wisdom.
suergaz

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Post by suergaz »

Jimhaz:--Quote:Quote:<hr>The QRS are not fully wise, although they have far fewer delusions that anyone else I’ve read on these forums.<hr>

When haven't we seen you crawling up the arses of these three wise men?
voce io
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Re: ---

Post by voce io »

Where in this sutra does it describe any difference between 'enlightened' and 'Perfected'? Or any sutra?
cassiopeiae
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Re: ---

Post by cassiopeiae »

Quote:Quote:<hr>voce: Where in this sutra does it describe any difference between 'enlightened' and 'Perfected'? Or any sutra?<hr>

There is commentary on it, but also described are the various degrees prior to the "Perfected" state, or Buddha. As for the actual sutra, I cannot say for all of this one particular, but so far in what I have read, it says nothing of the sort...
jimhaz
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Re: ---

Post by jimhaz »

Sugarplums

There are others I appreciate a lot, but they don't post in much detail or much. Some people like Tharan and Cass, Rairum (sometimes) for example, but there are others.

At times, I don't like the ones who write things in emotional terms, say like your post above. However, you and everyone here has an above average intelligence and sometimes say non-emotional things in an easily understood fashion that I can fully agree with, so my distaste gets dissipated. However, it quickly can flare up, due to what is stored in my long term memories.
Kevin Solway
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by Kevin Solway »

cassiopeiae wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>Well, from the Buddhist perspective, there are various degrees prior to becoming a Buddha, none of which knows everything to do with Truth.<hr>

It depends what you mean by "knowing". Someone who is almost a perfect Buddha knows just as much as does the Buddha - they could give the very same teachings, for example - but they still have the very slightest hint of "fog", so to speak, and so do not have the 100% perfect "vision" of a Buddha.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Also, I have been reading up on the Four Noble Truths, in which there has been said numerous times that no one can know everything while still in the "appearance" (physical) form - anything with "appearance" is false.<hr>

No-one can know all things about the physical world, as we are limited by our senses. But spiritual knowledge is something different.

cassiopeiae
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by cassiopeiae »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: It depends what you mean by "knowing". Someone who is almost a perfect Buddha knows just as much as does the Buddha - they could give the very same teachings, for example - but they still have the very slightest hint of "fog", so to speak, and so do not have the 100% perfect "vision" of a Buddha.<hr>

No where have I read anything about the "almost" perfect Buddha. You are or you aren't, and if you aren't there are still many things left to be learned. Though the "almost" Buddha, as you say, can give the same teachings, they are still lacking in the perfected enlightenement area for one reason or another.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: No-one can know all things about the physical world, as we are limited by our senses. But spiritual knowledge is something different.<hr>

It has been said (in the reading of the explanation of the Four Noble Truths) that while in physical form, a person can not know everything of Buddha nature. Basically, until death and ascention into the heavens.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Within the enlightenment of self and the enlightenment of others there are various stages and myriad distinctions. There are, for instance, small enlightenments, which are not complete, and there is great enlightenment, which is total. The Buddha has by himself realized great enlightenment, and he also causes others to obtain great enlightenment.

When one has perfected both the enlightenment of self and the enlightenment of others, one attains the perfection of enlightenment and practice.

The Buddha has perfected the Three Kinds of Enlightenment and so is adorned with myriad kinds of virtuous practices.

-Shurangama Sutra, The General Explanation of the Title<hr>
jimhaz
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by jimhaz »

No-one can be a perfect Buddha.

It is matter of memory. The degree of one's enlightenment is the ratio of stored irrational memories over the number of rational memories.

The longer a person remains not-enlightened the longer the process of becoming enlightened takes. That is why the older one is the more difficult it is to become enlightened. 'You can't teach an old dog new tricks'

Enlightenment takes time. If is person is steered to rationality when young, Hu Zheng, Weininger for example then they have less irrational memories stored, and as reason is a kind of chain reaction in that the preceeding rationality builds on a sound base of reason, then they are able to gain and will store more rational memories (providing a chain reaction of emotional irrationality does not occur due to the rejections of their rationality by society, we have natural herd instincts after all)

But it is still just a ratio, everyone will have stored irrational memories. The only way to create a perfect buddha would be to remove the irrational memories from long term memory, which is probably not possible. Edited by: jimhaz at: 2/3/04 12:40 pm
Kevin Solway
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by Kevin Solway »

Cassiopeiae wrote:

Quote:Quote:<hr>No where have I read anything about the "almost" perfect Buddha.<hr>

Imagine a person one moment before they become perfect (what I call a "Buddha"). At that moment they are "almost" a perfect Buddha. They are 99.99 percent perfect, but not 100% percent.

But what is this almost perfect person lacking that prevents them from being a perfect Buddha? It is nothing major. It is not as though a light were all of a sudden turned on and they crossed-over to the other side. Such a person is already on the other side. They are not in need of any enlightening.

All of the major realizations, or enlightenments, of a Buddha were made long ago back in the early bodhisattva stages.

Quote:Quote:<hr>It has been said (in the reading of the explanation of the Four Noble Truths) that while in physical form, a person can not know everything of Buddha nature. Basically, until death and ascention into the heavens.<hr>

Can you find this passage and quote from it, or refer us to where it is exactly. It would be interesting to examine it further.

It should be remembered that a fully enlightened Buddha is still in physical form.
silentsal
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by silentsal »

an unenlightened person is either a living being or a bodhisattva, the bodhisattva because he choses to be unenlightened and a living being because he has does not understand buddha nature and continues to undergo life and death

the buddha was not a living being although he appeared in the world .... to enlighten living beings
silentsal
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by silentsal »

the true appearance has no appearance and yet there is nothing left without an appearance. If you say it has no appearance, everything thereupon appears. Thus it is the true appearance.

everything that has an appearance is false, if while in the midst of appearances, you can understand they have no appearance, then you see the buddha

death/life are appearances therefore false and must be looked at as such to understand, buddha is an appearance therefore false, buddha nature is the unseen

suergaz

Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by suergaz »

Sal, it is a very peculiar thing that you have gone buddhish overnight.
silentsal
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by silentsal »

lol yes it is hahahaha what the hell came over me i wonder
cassiopeiae
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by cassiopeiae »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: But what is this almost perfect person lacking that prevents them from being a perfect Buddha? It is nothing major. It is not as though a light were all of a sudden turned on and they crossed-over to the other side. Such a person is already on the other side. They are not in need of any enlightening.

All of the major realizations, or enlightenments, of a Buddha were made long ago back in the early bodhisattva stages.<hr>

A person on the verge of Buddhahood could be lacking many things, all of which are significant, for they are the reason the person is not perfect. It could be they are arrogant, still have attachements, or any number of things dealing with the Myriad Practices, the Six Paramitas or the numerous precepts. Enlightenment, as far as this text portrays is not just about realization, but application and the perfection thereof.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: Can you find this passage and quote from it, or refer us to where it is exactly. It would be interesting to examine it further.<hr>

Sorry about that...the Vajra Sutra, I was mistaken on the reference, i think this is also referenced in the Shurangama Sutra, though I cannot locate it at the moment.
Kevin Solway
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by Kevin Solway »

cassiopeiae wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>A person on the verge of Buddhahood could be lacking many things, all of which are significant, for they are the reason the person is not perfect. It could be they are arrogant, still have attachements, or any number of things dealing with the Myriad Practices, the Six Paramitas or the numerous precepts. Enlightenment, as far as this text portrays is not just about realization, but application and the perfection thereof.<hr>

The ten stages of the bodhisattva are when everything is perfected. All major attachments are left behind by the first bodhisattva stage. By the time of the 7th bodhisattva stage, all six paramitas have been perfected, and there is only minor cleaning up to do.

Some traditions call bodhisattvas "Buddhas", given that the attainment of full Buddhahood is so difficult that possibly no-one has ever achieved it.

cassiopeiae
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Re: Shurangama Sutra

Post by cassiopeiae »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: The ten stages of the bodhisattva are when everything is perfected. All major attachments are left behind by the first bodhisattva stage. By the time of the 7th bodhisattva stage, all six paramitas have been perfected, and there is only minor cleaning up to do.<hr>

I cannot argue with that, considering I am new to Buddhism, but may bring this back up at a later date :-)

Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: Some traditions call bodhisattvas "Buddhas", given that the attainment of full Buddhahood is so difficult that possibly no-one has ever achieved it.<hr>

This is irrelevant, as far as what certain traditions call bodhisattvas. And I can accept that it is impossible to determine if true Buddhahood has ever been achieved.

So...in relation to why an enlightened person would like to review this text...care to take a jab at why you think or don't think this particular Sutra is so important?
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