Ne Plus Ultra

Some partial backups of posts from the past (Feb, 2004)
User avatar
David Quinn
Posts: 5708
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Ne Plus Ultra

Post by David Quinn »

Hello all,

As some of you may have heard, I was recently expelled from the Ne Plus Ultra forum. Unfortunately, the owner closed the forum from the view of outsiders on the same day as kicking me off, and so very few people have had a chance to see what had happened. I have managed to acquire a copy of the entire incident, however, which can be viewed <a href="http://home.primus.com.au/davidquinn" target="top">here</a>.

I have also written an <a href="http://home.primus.com.au/davidquinn/wo ... 00npu.html" target="top">essay</a> which analyzes the psychology of academic intellectuals, using the fracas at Ne Plus Ultra as a reference point. Edited by: DavidQuinn000 at: 1/23/04 7:11 pm
DEL
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 12:31 pm

The closed system

Post by DEL »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Andrew Beckwith
Your willingness to discount the intelligence of others here means you are a closed system.<hr>

Quote:Quote:<hr>DavidQuinn000
Unfortunately, the owner closed the forum from the view of outsiders on the same day as kicking me off, and so very few people have had a chance to see what had happened.<hr>

It is interesting to see how "closed" is the ultimate weapon.
In Alchemy when you see an image of a snake or dragon biteing it's own tail it is a symbol of a closed system, a ring, a circular movement, a trap. Meaning no progress.
If you snap the ring you get a spiral.
Thomas Knierim
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 6:20 pm

Re: The closed system

Post by Thomas Knierim »

<span style="color:white;">David: As some of you may have heard, I was recently expelled from the Ne Plus Ultra forum. Unfortunately, the owner closed the forum from the view of outsiders on the same day as kicking me off, and so very few people have had a chance to see what had happened. I have managed to acquire a copy of the entire incident, however, which can be viewed here.</span>

The communication with NPU evidences that your opinions are impenetrable by reason, which is basically echoed here on Genius. It not surprising that you -like most people- defend your opinions. Mind you, that's your right. What makes you different is that you go to extraordinary lengths at ignoring better reason while insisting on your prejudices. You are not known to consider other views than your own, even if your arguments have been convincingly refuted. While the participants on Genius have gotten used to this sort of thing, it tends to frustrate most other people. The habit has a tendency to stall and disrupt exchanges, so I can understand NPU's decision - at least from an emotional POV. There is something about misogyny that makes it unpalatbale -just like racism- it drives people nuts. You had this type of conflict in the past and you will probably keep running into it.

Thomas
John
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:40 pm

Re: The closed system

Post by John »

When a young child I visited somewhere with my parents, there was a piano in one of the rooms. I started to play and was exceedingly pleased with the result. It sounded great, so much so that I gave full vent to my newly found musical talent. Eventually my mother came form the other room and shouted, "For gods sake stop that awful noise!".

One can easily fall victim to self-willed grandeur.

John
jimhaz
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:28 pm

Re: The closed system

Post by jimhaz »

Thanks David. I missed the discussion so i'm sure this will make good reading, albeit my reasons for reading it will be for entertainment, no doubt some truth will sink in.
WolfsonJakk
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 6:50 pm

Re: The closed system

Post by WolfsonJakk »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Andrew Beckwith, PhD<hr>

The gender-based descriptions are offensive to those not already desensitized by it. It is unfortunate.

But it is also interesting how hysterical even the "smartest" become when confronted with this "-ism."

Tharan Silvers, BS., CCNA, A+, BaD. MoFo.
jimhaz
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:28 pm

Re: The closed system

Post by jimhaz »

I can't work out how Andrew Beckwith is in that supposed elite group. He is clearly an idiot, from my perspective.
jimhaz
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:28 pm

Re: The closed system

Post by jimhaz »

OK read it all now, including the essay, but excluding much of the jargony bits.

Agree fully with David's summation of the exchange, with the exception that I think M's responses and lack of emotive response were quite reasonable.

I had no idea that otherwise intelligent people, could be so emotionally chaotic and childlike.
Hywel
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:06 am
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Ne Plus Ultra

Post by Hywel »

I didnt actually believe people like this existed.

I was tempted to cut out some of the funniest parts and post them in the thinkers inn, but theres just too many.

But I did manage to find a single sentence from Plato that perhaps sums up the insanity:-
Quote:Quote:<hr>I am not dividing Reality into anything - I am looking at the various reflections or images of that reality.<hr>
So, hes not dividing up reality, and then he proceeds to separate reality from our images of it.

Mad as a bicycle.

Mind you, I found just the way they talk hilarious. What kind of person will not only say, but actually type the word "damnably".....
Lbartoli
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:49 am

ha! ha! ha! ha!.......

Post by Lbartoli »



Thomas Knierim (who else could?), wrote:


David: As some of you may have heard, I was recently expelled from the Ne Plus Ultra forum. Unfortunately, the owner closed the forum from the view of outsiders on the same day as kicking me off, and so very few people have had a chance to see what had happened. I have managed to acquire a copy of the entire incident, however, which can be viewed here.


The communication with NPU evidences that your opinions are impenetrable by reason, which is basically echoed here on Genius. It not surprising that you -like most people- defend your opinions. Mind you, that's your right. What makes you different is that you go to extraordinary lengths at ignoring better reason while insisting on your prejudices. You are not known to consider other views than your own, even if your arguments have been convincingly refuted. While the participants on Genius have gotten used to this sort of thing, it tends to frustrate most other people. The habit has a tendency to stall and disrupt exchanges, so I can understand NPU's decision - at least from an emotional POV. There is something about misogyny that makes it unpalatbale -just like racism- it drives people nuts. You had this type of conflict in the past and you will probably keep running into it.

Thomas


HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!..............


User avatar
Rhett
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:31 am
Location: Australia

Re: The closed system

Post by Rhett »

I can't work out how Andrew Beckwith is in that supposed elite group. He is clearly an idiot, from my perspective.

Yes, i saw it unfold. I thought he was just a lacky and would peel away and leave room for some real thinkers to enter the fray. It seems that there weren't any.




Agree fully with David's summation of the exchange, with the exception that I think M's responses and lack of emotive response were quite reasonable.

I also noticed ~M~, and checked out a few of his personal topics. He seemed to be trying to pierce topics with logic rather than get caught up in complex waffle. Perhaps the discussion is still sinking in, and might have an observable effect on him later.




I had no idea that otherwise intelligent people, could be so emotionally chaotic and childlike.

I guess they are rarely pushed in such a calculated and truthful manner, they were like a baby thrown into ice-water.


Rhett
suergaz

---

Post by suergaz »

Rhett, it's lackey, not lacky, and conscientious not consciencious. As a most conscientious lackey you will thank me for correcting you before David your lord and master has to.
voce io
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:05 am

Re: The closed system

Post by voce io »

Rhett, you're such a fuck.
krussell2004
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:23 pm

Lbartoli inhaled too much laughing gas

Post by krussell2004 »

Why is what Thomas Knierim said so funny to you? Is it because it happens to be true?

I hope you've enjoyed your latest experience at the dentists office. Edited by: krussell2004 at: 1/25/04 6:45 am
Kevin Solway
Posts: 2766
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:43 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: The closed system

Post by Kevin Solway »

Thomas wrote:

> There is something about misogyny that makes it
> unpalatable

It is a very serious thing to accuse someone of misogyny. It is just like accusing someone of being a pedophile, or of being racist. You shouldn't be branding people with such terms unless you have clear proof to back it up, otherwise it is just slander of the worst kind.

Your claim of "hatred of women" needs be backed up with evidence. Having a low regard for feminine psychology in the context of philosophic progress does not constitute "misogyny".

krussell2004
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:23 pm

Slander or Libel?

Post by krussell2004 »

Quote:Quote:<hr>It is a very serious thing to accuse someone of misogyny.<hr>

Yes, I agree. It is also something that David started an entire thread in which he branded Thomas and anyone who doesn't share his views on women as misogynists. Yet, you did not offer one word of rebuke toward David as you have with Thomas. Your indignation is a selective one it seems.

Quote:Quote:<hr> It is just like accusing someone of being a pedophile, or of being racist. You shouldn't be branding people with such terms unless you have clear proof to back it up, otherwise it is just slander of the worst kind.<hr>

Oh come on now. Slander? He was merely expressing his opinion of David's views just as David did when he labelled Thomas in the same manner. Are you practising law now?

Quote:Quote:<hr>
Your claim of "hatred of women" needs be backed up with evidence.
<hr>

As you David and Dan need to back up your claims that women are not capable of attaining enlightenment unless they get a sex change. Without verifiable quality data to back up your so called wise assertions you will only continue to invite such accusations.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Having a low regard for feminine psychology in the context of philosophic progress does not constitute "misogyny".<hr>

Neither is the assertion by some psychometric experts that blacks are inferior to whites because the average of their collective IQ scores is lower than that of whites racist. I'm interested to here what you would make of that.


FYI Slander applies to the spoken word. It is libel when done in written form. Philosophers make lousy lawyers. *rolls eyes*

Edited by: krussell2004 at: 1/25/04 9:52 am
suergaz

---

Post by suergaz »

Kevin and David are misogynists. However, they are not men who have physically harmed women.
User avatar
Rhett
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:31 am
Location: Australia

Re: Slander or Libel?

Post by Rhett »

Neither is the assertion by some psychometric experts that blacks are inferior to whites because the average of their collective IQ scores is lower than that of whites racist. I'm interested to here what you would make of that.

Now we're really onto a dangerous topic. I imagine that it's not discussed here because there's no benefit to the spread of wisdom in doing so. Unlike women, black people don't seem to be hampering the efforts of others to become wise - at least not in a significant way, so there is little justification in engaging in a debate.

Nevertheless, would it be too dangerous for me to suggest that black people, such as native Africans, Australian Aboriginals, etc, do seem less inclined towards Ultimate Wisdom? Perhaps it would be interesting to see what proportion of the Genius Forum membership are black?

I'm not aware of any black people becoming enlightened, that seems to be the province of Anglo's and Asians.


Rhett
Naturyl
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:12 am

Re: ---

Post by Naturyl »

Jesus. Wasn't the misogyny enough?
WolfsonJakk
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 6:50 pm

---

Post by WolfsonJakk »

I am not aware of any Vietnamese or Koreans becoming enlightened. Nor am I aware of any of the Slavic language speakers, any in the Middle East, nor Mexicans becoming enlightened. I am also not aware of any Cubans with cigars, mafioso types, tap dancers, people with a lazy eye, nor humans inflicted with Elephantitis becoming enlightened. The same can be said of all non-humans, stewardesses, my neighbors, residents of Gary, Indiana, men with toupees, and step-children.

In fact, I am only aware of the QRS collective being currently enlightened. If we add you to that list Rhett, we get the QRSH collective.

Could it be that my awareness plays a role in this?

Tharan
Dave Toast
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:22 pm

Re: ---

Post by Dave Toast »

Yes, it would be interesting to see how many native Africans and Aussie Aboriginals have PCs and internet access, and are interested in enlightenment, and have come across this site, and have identified this site as a means towards wisdom, and have decided to become a memeber, and are still active.


Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: Having a low regard for feminine psychology in the context of philosophic progress does not constitute "misogyny".<hr>
No, but marry it to a certain far right, "wisdom" promotion based value system; then send the resultant views out into the world at large. Lo and behold we have what will almost universally be percieved as that which constitutes misogyny, whether it truly is or not.

----------------------------------------------------------

I've read it all, and Quinn won by some margin in my estimation. No points were irrefutably proven though, rather some were proven either way and were not refuted irrefutably. But I believe David's motivations for going there may not have been to win anything, never mind a debate as to the relative merits of philosophy versus the scientific method with regard to absolute knowledge of reality (and how could he expect some of his points to be understood, or even to understand some of the points made himself). His primary motivation was probably to look for potential like minds, likely to no avail. But I percieved his secondary motivation, accomplished with aplomb, was to show the constraints that one's egotistical attachments apply to one's thinking and one's reactions, and the fact that exceptional IQ has no effect on this equation whatsoever.
User avatar
Rhett
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:31 am
Location: Australia

Re: ---

Post by Rhett »

Jesus. Wasn't the misogyny enough?

I was being no more than suggestive in response to a previous point.

Perhaps there is reason to debate it? If i have unearthed significant attachments then that may well be the case. After all, do we want to become like Ne Plus Ultra?

However, i currently only see reason for me to have made the points i did, in order to put a crack in any barriers that people might have about discussing it.

'Correctness', whether of the political/cultural variety or some other, is not the province of the sage. The truth cannot bend to convention.


Rhett
Naturyl
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:12 am

Re: ---

Post by Naturyl »

African and Australian peoples have shamanic traditions which exist for no other purpose than communing with "ultimate reality." For you to suggest that entire races of people have no interest in 'enlightenment' because they do not visit this site is beyond absurd. It is both ethnocentric and egocentric in the extreme.
suergaz

----

Post by suergaz »

Kevin and David think that women should be more masculine physically, ie. less beautiful. I think Rhett thinks this also. Rhett?

Also, you really don't think there have been/will be sagacious black men?
krussell2004
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:23 pm

Re: ---

Post by krussell2004 »

Dave Toast wrote:

Quote:Quote:<hr>But I percieved his secondary motivation, accomplished with aplomb, was to show the constraints that one's egotistical attachments apply to one's thinking and one's reactions, and the fact that exceptional IQ has no effect on this equation whatsoever. <hr>

To which even I am willing to admit is to his credit. However, I don't think that QRS are as enlightened as they think they are because I believe that their views on women are not based on fact, but on their own attachments ie biases. Hence, they are misogynists. I don't mean that they go around harming women or anything like that. I think that they actually think that they are helping women become enlightened by trying to get them to think more like men. I just think that they are being misguided and fool-hardy by thinking that. Given David's mindset, is it any surprise that it happened the way it did? Hell, it could have happened exactly the same way at any social club where the general populace have normal IQs. Edited by: krussell2004 at: 2/3/04 11:00 am
Locked