Enlightenment / Knowing Who You Are

[Talking Ass]

Peculiarly, you explain and 'defend' this 'enlightenment' as if you 'know' it, but then you evince all sorts of confusion, discomfort and even pain about existential problems. About 90% of the conversations (those endless, abstract battles over definitions which, in the end, seem to get no-one no-where...) that occur here seem to me of this sort: people who have an intellectual or perhaps intuitive (or perhaps phantasy?) understanding of 'enlightenment' that they are very [very!] eager to communicate to others. Based on this, I utterly reject the category. To speak about it, to speculate about it, seems a total waste of time. If this is 'spiritual life' I want out!

The way you have described it, to my mind, it is a valueless category! 'It is naturally occurring and spontaneously present'. Is this any different from the naturally occurring and spontaneous present in which I sit? But don't think that I do not on some level grasp what is being pointed to.

But my sense is the following: with this term and this view you mystify yourself. You are in the grip of it and can't seem to let it go. Probably you will spend the next post 'defending' it!

Still, you are talking about a 'state' and I am trying to counter that idea or second that idea with the notion of a life lived with its goals and activities. If there is some sort of recognition of 'enlightenement', one still has to live one's life. It is in the decisions that one makes, the ways that one choses to express one's values, the effect one has in one's community, the quality of one's person, and the way one lives and expresses all this that offer existential satisfaction.

Q-R-S and anyone here you want to name are people. So what? Just like people they are this one day and that the next. None of that was or is my point when talking about 'hell'. Hell is a place you wind up in through circumstances [on one hand] but through certain 'conceptual routes' [on another]. You could have an essentially 'good' character and still get involved in confining or limiting definitions. You could have a terrible character but involve yourself in opening-outward and non-confining definitions. To speak of a 'hell' is not to use any sort of conventional definitions. It is to suggest that 'ideas have consequences' and the definitions we establish is a sort of structure we build around ourselves. As you know the group of definitions in QRS ideology are questionable in their long-term effect. Seeing this and understanding this is important. And you should pay attention to the 'misogyny' because it is a fundamental definition that arises from distorted views.

You really baffle me sometimes Sandy (if I may call you Sandy). You just really do not seem to know how to organize your perceptions. You flip around from one thing to another and back again. I can only imagine it to be excruciating on some level.

[Kunga]

Peculiarly, you explain and 'defend' this 'enlightenment' as if you 'know' it, but then you evince all sorts of confusion, discomfort and even pain about existential problems.

This is a recent development....something I have been searching for since childhood. It is also peculiar that you also defend it as if you know it.
One day my teacher told me when you find "it" keep it to yourself....I asked him, after I thought I found "it", why is it so important to keep it to yourself ? Because I thought of all the others , such as Buddha, and other teachers, that explained and wrote poetry of their experiences....I felt exhuberant, like someone in love, that wants to share the love or wealth with everyone. But now I can see....
this treasure I have found (like my teacher said), people will want to steal it away from me....make me feel like a fool...like the idiot I always feel like.....so I guess I should of listened to my teacher. I will try to stay away from these forums and the internet , as my heart breaks from all this acidic poison . I need to be alone with this for a while, and see what happens . I can already see how damaging it can be, to be around people that have not yet realized what I'm going through. I know I need to develop more.
Please read the icon link under my avatar...it might explain to you, better than I can now.

Peace _/\_

[Talking Ass]

Quoted from the site you linked to:

"This is the very pinnacle of the sublime secret approach. Do not speak about it to those of lesser aptitude, but keep it extremely secret. By being misinterpretted, the teachings concerning the heart essence will be distorted. Exaggeration and underestimation are at odds with enlightened intent. Those who violate the bounds of secrecy fall endlessly into lower states. Therefore, the legacy of the most majestic and utterly secret spiritual approach is taught and entrusted to holy people with good fortune."

I could paraphrase this interestingly: When you come to know something or to realize something [in this existential, 'life-experience' sense], you will find it very, very difficult to communicate, in direct terms, the essence of it. If they are not 'primed' to receive it, no matter what, it cannot get through. One after another shields, defenses, patterns and habits of ideation will rise up. They will not hear what you wish them to hear, but will hear whatever is pumping through their mind and being [lower state]. To speak to someone who is not 'primed' to receive that knowledge that comes to a man through dealing with existential issues, all that which batters us over the head until at last, somehow, we 'get it' ['geddit' is a vulgar but acceptable spelling], and finally some awareness arises in us [liberating knowledge], to speak to those not ready to hear will lead to the distortion of the 'preciousness' of the knowledge, and in some weird sense actually causes one to fall backward into that state [lower state]. Only someone who is very very lucky gets to have these exalted experiences [the deep realizations about core existential issues and problems: the human incarnation].

If you were speaking to one of those 'Holy People' you would be understood immediately, there would be no need of excessive argument, demonstration, etc. But if you are speaking to a denizen of a hell, a Hell, of a 'Hell', they will indeed try to steal away from you [essentially the feeling of it, wouldn't you say?] what you earned.

Note: [Just for the record] To have interchange with the denizens of Hell you have to be well-protected and very, very tricky. You have to know Hell so well that any exchange with the denizens is part of your required 'pay-back' to whatever it was that liberated you, once, from such a hell. You can never NEVER reveal anything directly. But you can though insert, craftily, through the interstices, little bits and peices ['smart-bits'] of what might be described as 'bubbly awareness' that get through all defenses and, lo and behold!, at a later date reassemble themselves on the other side of the gate.

(This is all in my fucking Ecourse [Talking Ass's 'Enlightenment in 30 Days Guaranteed!' E-course'] and no-one has bothered to take it seriously!)

[Kunga]

Yes, I read that...and after, I thought : "But you [Longchenpa] said everything IS EQUAL, so HOW COULD THERE EVEN BE ANYTHING NOT HOLY ENOUGH TO HEAR IT ?" And so, I put that thought of keeping it secret out of my mind....thinking maybe it was a trick, to see if I really understood what he [Longchenpa], was saying, that everything was equal. I thought of it as a contradiction,[ that it should not be spoken about to those of "lesser aptitude"....]

Now I know....God help me !

[There's always confession]


_/\_

[Dennis Mahar]

Don't fret Sandy.
You've accessed transformation zone.
Heart opens,
World is shown as 'nasty business'.
'Fix' is obvious.
love and other connection possibilities.
not easy to get that across.
authentic is frowned upon.

it's not called Beginner's Mind for no reason.

you learn to keep the heart open because it's your greatest possibility.
the one you love.
the love of being.

[cousinbasil]

Note: [Just for the record] To have interchange with the denizens of Hell you have to be well-protected and very, very tricky. You have to know Hell so well that any exchange with the denizens is part of your required 'pay-back' to whatever it was that liberated you, once, from such a hell. You can never NEVER reveal anything directly. But you can though insert, craftily, through the interstices, little bits and peices ['smart-bits'] of what might be described as 'bubbly awareness' that get through all defenses and, lo and behold!, at a later date reassemble themselves on the other side of the gate.

TCP/IP apparently working even on the Gateway to Hell.

(This is all in my fucking Ecourse [Talking Ass's 'Enlightenment in 30 Days Guaranteed!' E-course'] and no-one has bothered to take it seriously!)

Alex - thirty days might be asking an awful lot of most people. Perhaps you could condense it ala Father Guido Sarducci's "Five Minute University?"

[Kunga]

Don't fret Sandy.
You've accessed transformation zone.

It's kinda funny actually....I was giving up...because after all these years, especially the past 10, very intense about studying ... all the energy I put into wanting to know the truth...then feeling like giving up because I was losing my drive and energy....thinking "I gave it all I got..that's it folks...it's all down hill from here...no more....I'm done....." Then things started to happen....not even looking for anything....they would come to me...and fire me up again...a new insight [they were boring me to death, after a while....]...finally, after reading the Precious Treasury, things really clicked....[that text is a real blessing], and even the video of Christine Breese....another boon.....I don't care what others call her, New Age is just a label...if your mind is open and your heart is pure....truth can come from anywhere, and the most surprising of places.....

So, all I recognize now is this Consciousness/Awareness, to maintain that 24/7 won't be easy...although it's the same thing as meditation [being awake all day and paying attension/mindful.] It's catching myself in old patterns/habits/reactions, and realizing that this is just a dream, nothing is real [yet needing to live in this reality as if it were real, so as not to injure myself]. This is when the need for a teacher/guide is absolutely nesessary[to ask questions along the way]. The neophyte[sp?] is like a pupa emerging into a butterfly, and it needs protection from the elements.




Heart opens,
World is shown as 'nasty business'.
'Fix' is obvious.
love and other connection possibilities.
not easy to get that across.
authentic is frowned upon.

it's not called Beginner's Mind for no reason.
Yes...now I realize what even that means !


you learn to keep the heart open because it's your greatest possibility.
the one you love.

Finally, I found my true love ! Amazing ! I felt it all these years, but didn't know what it ment really....I mean...INTENSE love for so many strangers....my body heating up with love..wondering why I am more intense than most other people....denying it was anything special....love is from the energy of Conciousness...but it isn't what we think of as "love" it's the Life Force of the Universe !
the love of being.

T[color=#000080]Thank you, Dennis for being my Midwife :) _/\_[/color]

[Dennis Mahar]

You know the score Sandy, one nil up your way.

mockers mock,
it's all they've got,
it's their causes/conditions,
you can't fix fuckwits.

a bear hunter was asked about bear.
he said you have to get 'inside the skin' of bear and have a look around.
there's not much goin' on.

Heidegger's interrogation of Dasein did that.
Got inside the skin of.
Pretty much machinery.
empty shell.
Cognite the machinery blows it up,
reveals Being.

The neophyte[sp?] is like a pupa emerging into a butterfly, and it needs protection from the elements.

10 black crows strung along a wire,
if one black crow turned into a dove,
there'd be 9 black crows strung along a wire

[Kunga]

I found this websight this morning [by Googling "Life Force"] :

http://www.awakentruth.org/lectures.html

I only read a little so far, but I was impressed ....I also feel I need to be alone now, away from all these influences...to "tune in" [meditate].
I have to break my addiction to the internet :(


i love crows

[Dennis Mahar]

a carbon based woman
uses
30x100 carbon based dollar bills
to buy
a carbon based diamond

it's funny.

[Kunga]

Yeah right...

Here's some more carbon based Diamond Mind Wisdom :

http://www.awakentruth.org/lectures/175.html

[Dennis Mahar]

Is something getting re-solved?

A new, reorganisation of what was seen one way gestalted into a new 'picture'?

previously disordered jig saw pieces laying about,
now coming together,
into a complete organised whole.

Is there a buzz?

[Kunga]

Is something getting re-solved?

One thing leads to another....trying to comprehend/relate/assess/compair/authinticate


A new, reorganisation of what was seen one way gestalted into a new 'picture'?

Need to confirm...the Universe communicates to me via others when I don't have the one on one meditation....but I am still meditating like this too...so really...all the same/ just diff technique.

previously disordered jig saw pieces laying about,
now coming together,
into a complete organised whole.

Don't worry...I love figuring things out like this...I may be all wrong about everything I think...I have to investigate more....need to spend quite alone time, meditating too...I think....

Is there a buzz?

Yes.....I thought it was tenninitus....what is it ? (How would one know the difference ?)

I'm reading too much stufff....getting discouraged...next I gotta talk to my teacher...he down-plays everything...acts like he dosn't know what I'm talking about....lol But never makes me feel stupid/foolish. Always incourages me...."just try your best".


_/\_

[Dennis Mahar]

the theory of everything?

is that what you're going for?

[Kunga]

lol...yeah...gonna write my thesis on it some day :)

I found this , in answer about the ringing/buzzing :

I stay in regular touch with what I'd call a Nada Yogi. He's dedicated his life to the yoga of sound and vibrations and has an incredibly keen sense and wisdom for it. I asked him once about tinnitus and different ringing and rushing sounds in the ears.

He said that "tinnitus" can either be a clearing process or a tuning process, or both. The more stuff that needs to be cleared, the louder the tinnitus, the more out of tune we are, the louder the tuning.

[scroll down] : http://www.kundalini-gateway.org/threads/th_sound.html

Anyways...my left ear hears birds chripping/ sometimes crickets...
The right ear is more of a pulsating hissing sound...
I noticed these sounds about a year ago...
Caffiene, smoking, loud noise/music/ can stimulate tininitus...
I do all three, less with the loud music...but sometimes crank it up...in my car
Also when younger went to many loud rock concerts....

The sounds don't really bother me...but seems to be always there....I don't notice them sometimes tho

Do you have the same thing ?
If so, when did it start ?

Think it's related to Kundalini ?

[Kunga]

This exposition of the Universal Mind in the Hsing Tsung is very close to the views of Evans-Wentz as he expressed them in his interpretation of Dzogchen texts. However, Evans-Wentz derived his ideas directly from the Hindu philosophy of Advaita Vedanta, rather than from a reading of Chinese Buddhism. As we have pointed out elsewhere, it is true that the Dharmakaya, the dimension of reality, is universal, like infinite space itself. It is one in the sense of transcending all dualities. It is omnipresent and all-pervading and all sentient beings, the enlightened and the unenlightened, equally participate in this single Dharmakaya. But Dharmakaya refers not to mind (sems), but to the Nature of Mind (sems-nyid) and this is a crucial distinction in Dzogchen. Furthermore, the Dharmakaya, which is understood in Dzogchen as the state of Shunyata and the basis of everything (kun-gzhi), is not a mind, let alone the One Mind or the Universal Mind, even though it is the context for the activities of thought. For this reason, the Dharmakaya is compared to the clear open sky, whereas thoughts are compared to the clouds that come to fill the sky. Moreover, there is also the Rupakaya or Form Body, the dimension of form, which is equally the manifestation of Buddhahood and this Rupakaya is always individual in its nature. Therefore, the enlightenment of a Buddha has both a universal aspect, the Dharmakaya, and a particular and individual aspect, the Rupakaya.

http://vajranatha.com/teaching/DzogchenChinese.htm

I've been reading some stuff on Dzogchen...and apparently accessing/realization of Awareness/ consciousness, is not the end of "it" . There's more to come. Consciousness even disappears before you get to "The Great Perfection" [Dzogchen]

I have to understand this totally so I don't assume anything.


http://standinginanopenfield.wordpress. ... -peterson/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen

[Dennis Mahar]

Is there a buzz.
What I meant, was there an elevation in mood and understanding.

let's get inside the skin of human being and have a look around.
have a look at the wires and levers.
It has a concern for it's being.
It cares.
It assumes there is meaning.
It has to be meaningful right?
It's got to get the Story and it's got to get the Story straight right?
In all that it's restless, irritable and discontent 'cos it can't quite put a finger on it.

Try this on for size.
There is no meaning.
Is there any reason for Being to be?
Isn't it completely astonishing that Being is,
there could have been zip,
does it need a story?

[Kunga]

was there an elevation in mood and understanding.

Yes. The most I've ever had so far. I always sensed the Oneness...but the connection of Consciousness/Awareness is more clear.
Whereas being Mindful/Present was also experienced, but related more to my ego I think. The Awareness/Consciousness seems separate
from my Mindful [watching] presence.

Is there any reason for Being to be?

Why would it "Be", if not for a purpose ?
Maybe it just enjoys itself ?

[Dennis Mahar]

Maybe it just enjoys itself ?

the love of being?
rascal?

[Kunga]

the love of being?
rascal?

I love being...maybe we're related ?
It must be an intelligence of some kind.
Energy.

[Kunga]

Self Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness :

http://www.fodian.net/world/zzgse.html


Woman of Wisdom:
http://www.khandro.net/book-womenofwisdom.htm

[Kunga]

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani

[Dennis Mahar]

There's a moment.
the direct experience of emptiness.
when one notices how one's thoughts go out.
like fine spider threads that weave a web around objects and attach and capture them.

and it's realised with astonishment,
that by so doing,
one is,
in fact,
the one captured,
frozen in it,
'held' in it.

one creates one's own prison,
one is caught in one's own web.
that is suffering.
there is no excuse.
one does it to oneself.
oh, what a tangled web we weave.

recognising this instantly plunges one into primordial essence,
true nature,
ecstasy.

[Kunga]

i don't know
if i've experienced emptiness or not
i just realized that
whatever it is
everything is it
everything is it's reflection

i look at the stars...
and realize i'm looking at myself


it's an empty feeling[takes away my sense of self]
but fills it with a sense of everything...

what we see/feel/smell/taste/touch with our perceptions
is empty [dependant/causes/conditions]

It's base is clear

clear/appear

everything loses it's "heaviness"
appearances/perceptions are all the the head/mind

This Awareness
Realizes this.
That Awareness of being Aware, is what we are.

[That's where I'm at]

[Kunga]

Once I was with a group of people at a meditation class,
We all were told [by the teacher], to look at this flower.
Then the teacher went around the room asking everyone what
their experience was...
I was the only one that merged with the flower...
i could feel the coolness,
smell the sweetness,
I dissappeared inside this flower.
I guess it's called "samadhi".

But i also have a very good imagination....
there's a lot of visualization with Tibetan Buddhist practice...
It was alway easy for me to visualize in my head[imagine].
Some people have a hard time with this....
All my poetry from the past was vivid imagery...
My prose became poetry...was never good at prose...
that's why i suck with this type of writing.
I have no desire to write poetry anymore.