Police State

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Re: Police State

Postby Elizabeth Isabelle » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:35 am

Sher, if they do that, does that mean that they are going to go to wherever this guy bought it and "protect" all future consumers too by confiscating the inventory? How can they justify confiscation of items that are not illegal for the protection of the owners?
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:50 am

I agree, they need to make it illegal first.

What about toy guns? Those could get you shot at by the police, if you draw them. They aren't going to take the risk (of the gun being real and made to look like a toy).
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Re: Police State

Postby Carl G » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:43 am

The designers of the Police State love to have citizens focused on stuff like belt buckles and the odd swat-teamed poor peon.
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:39 am

Carl, I lived in a Police State for years. It definitely had its advantages. I'm not recommending it, though.
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Re: Police State

Postby Carl G » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:49 am

Wow. What were some of the advantages?
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:01 am

Pros: Crime (from low class criminals) was very much under control. Kidnappings and bank robberies were unheard of. We could walk around the city, day or night, without fearing for our lives. We did not need to live totally surrounded by iron bars. The police were taken seriously. Needless to say, none of this is true now under "democracy". Criminals have the upper hand now.

Cons: The military police itself did a robbery in my house, taking a safe. Not expecting to find someone in there, they hit my grandmother. Bad experience all around.
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Re: Police State

Postby Foreigner » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:58 pm

Shahrazad wrote:Pros: Crime (from low class criminals) was very much under control. Kidnappings and bank robberies were unheard of. We could walk around the city, day or night, without fearing for our lives. We did not need to live totally surrounded by iron bars. The police were taken seriously. Needless to say, none of this is true now under "democracy". Criminals have the upper hand now.

Cons: The military police itself did a robbery in my house, taking a safe. Not expecting to find someone in there, they hit my grandmother. Bad experience all around.

You must be female, dont think it was as sweet for civilian men for i assure you it wasnt.

Indeed, consider the USA, its no coincidence that feminine mentality controls everything while the place is essentially now a police state, as has been quite correctly observed by a writer earlier in this thread.

Honest men are treated far worse than crafty opportunists, while the women can do no wrong.
What a disaster.
And growing worse by the minute.

Meanwhile everyone is walking around in a daze scratching their heads mumbling things like "but why these horrible acts of violence? men are terrible human beings, its all their fault, the bastards"

Fools.


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Re: Police State

Postby Carl G » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:33 am

Shahrazad wrote:Pros: Crime (from low class criminals) was very much under control. Kidnappings and bank robberies were unheard of. We could walk around the city, day or night, without fearing for our lives. We did not need to live totally surrounded by iron bars. The police were taken seriously. Needless to say, none of this is true now under "democracy". Criminals have the upper hand now.

Cons: The military police itself did a robbery in my house, taking a safe. Not expecting to find someone in there, they hit my grandmother. Bad experience all around.

So you list safety as the only pro. Even while admitting the threat to even greater crime by the State. Bottom line is that Law and Order does not offer security to the individual but only to the State. The apparent security to the individual is that of a prison experience.
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:20 am

Carl,

So you list safety as the only pro.
Right now, there is no greater reason for me to worry than my safety and that of my kids. You underestimate the value of safety.

Even while admitting the threat to even greater crime by the State.
Greater? No way.

My family was attacked by the State (as you put it) once in a decade (70s). This decade, my family has been attacked more than a dozen times, and none of the times has the police done anything about it. I'd say I'm living in a place that is at least 20 times more dangerous. The law-abiding population here lives in fear.

Bottom line is that Law and Order does not offer security to the individual but only to the State. The apparent security to the individual is that of a prison experience.
Placing yourself in prison voluntarily, by surrounding yourself with walls and private security guards, is the only way to be safe from criminals. There is no such thing as freedom.

If you live in a safe town in Arizona where you don't even bother to lock your doors, I'd say a Police State can do little for you. So I do understand your point of view. But in Panama, the average citizen is begging the government for tough law and order. It is our number one issue.
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Re: Police State

Postby Carl G » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:36 am

Wow. I've never actually heard anyone actually argue for a Police State before. This is surreal.

This is how the Police State is historically set up in countries. There is orchestrated chaos, then a cry for order, and then the Police State as response. United States may well be next.
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:10 am

Wow. I've never actually heard anyone actually argue for a Police State before. This is surreal.
Go back and read my original blog. I said I would not recommend a Police State. But I believe that is what many people want, without knowing it.

United States may well be next.
Keep the violent crime rate low, and it will never happen.
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Re: Police State

Postby Carl G » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:36 am

Shahrazad wrote:
Wow. I've never actually heard anyone actually argue for a Police State before. This is surreal.
Go back and read my original blog. I said I would not recommend a Police State. But I believe that is what many people want, without knowing it.

Then we agree. On the previous page I wrote:

"The Police State is here and now, it's not in the future. Most people are unaware of this, and actually, subconsciously, prefer slavery to freedom. That's how good the marketing has been."

Nevertheless you did argue for the Police State, which is exactly what the controllers want us to do.

United States may well be next.
Keep the violent crime rate low, and it will never happen.

Crime, borne of poverty and frustration, is being manipulated to go up, with the rise in taxes and unemployment, and the degradation of savings put into retirement funds, homes, and stocks.
Good Citizen Carl
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:00 am

Nevertheless you did argue for the Police State, which is exactly what the controllers want us to do.
And many (maybe even you) would argue against tough law and order, which is exactly what the criminals want us to do.

A year ago, a pre-presidential candidate in Panama was advocating "mano dura", which means "tough hand" (on crime). He lost his bid. A few weeks later my kid was violently mugged, and the felon called her at home (he had her cell phone, and thus all her important numbers), and bragged that he would never get caught, because the "mano dura" candidate lost his bid.

I don't see a choice between slavery and freedom; I see a choice between masters to be slaves to. It's not a pleasant choice.
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Re: Police State

Postby Carl G » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:41 am

Shahrazad wrote:
I don't see a choice between slavery and freedom; I see a choice between masters to be slaves to. It's not a pleasant choice.

Crime-Prison Planet Earth any way you look at it, that's pretty bleak. I like to think there are alternatives and still time to institute them. But with the masses just going along with the program, I'll agree, there is little reason to foresee general improvement in the near future.
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:30 am

I like to think there are alternatives and still time to institute them.
Let me know if you ever come up with something good.

Ever heard of the "broken glass" theory? It was applied in New York City decades ago, and they drastically reduced crime. We need to apply that to Panama, but it will involve a massive change in culture. Paradigms need to break.
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Re: Police State

Postby DHodges » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:45 am

Shahrazad wrote:Ever heard of the "broken glass" theory?

Interesting Theory.

Meanwhile the Institute, together with newly formed Giuliani Group, is shopping their famous policing philosophy all over Latin America, from Mexico City to Santiago, despite the warnings of some that what worked in an economic boom in New York might not fly in a dirt-poor metropolis where violent crime is rampant and the police are notoriously corrupt.


I would say the solution is the same as it ever was: get a gun, protect yourself. The government, the police, aren't going to do it.
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:15 am

Dhodges,

despite the warnings of some that what worked in an economic boom in New York might not fly in a dirt-poor metropolis where violent crime is rampant and the police are notoriously corrupt.
That's too bad. There is an economic boom in Panama, and the "me first" mentality would surely be an obstacle. However, I'd be willing to bet that "broken windows" would work here. That combined with a solution for those who can't or don't want to find a job.
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Re: Police State

Postby Elizabeth Isabelle » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:06 pm

DHodges wrote:I would say the solution is the same as it ever was: get a gun, protect yourself. The government, the police, aren't going to do it.


That works well when it is reasonably certain that the state would not take unreasonable revenge on the person protecting himself or herself. True: either the state or the populace (in America, that was supposed to be synonymous...) should assure that the person using self-protection was indeed just using self protection and not inflated-ego protection (shooting someone for "disrespecting"), but whoever does the assurance measure needs to be reasonable. Unfortunatly now there is a serious lack of reasoning ability in too many people, including a number of authority figures.
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:34 pm

Dhodges,

I would say the solution is the same as it ever was: get a gun, protect yourself. The government, the police, aren't going to do it.
That's not good enough for me. What if I was taking a shower while someone breaks into my house, enters my bathroom and tries to kill me. Do you suppose I will bathe with my loaded gun? And even if I did, it will do me very little good if the person attacks me before I notice I'm not alone.

I'd rather build an impenetrable wall to my house than depend on a gun to make me safe.
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Re: Police State

Postby DHodges » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:08 am

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:That works well when it is reasonably certain that the state would not take unreasonable revenge on the person protecting himself or herself.
I was reading an article recently about the cost of defending yourself in court, were you to shoot someone in justified self-defense. Besides a lawyer (and you would certainly want a good one), you are likely to need expert witnesses. The cost can be many tens of thousands of dollars. Still, better to be broke than dead.

It should be obvious, in any case, that killing someone is an absolute last resort, only to be used when your life is being directly threatened and there is no other way to end that threat.

Unfortunatly now there is a serious lack of reasoning ability in too many people, including a number of authority figures.
All too true.
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Re: Police State

Postby DHodges » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:17 am

Shahrazad wrote:Dhodges,

I would say the solution is the same as it ever was: get a gun, protect yourself. The government, the police, aren't going to do it.
That's not good enough for me. What if I was taking a shower while someone breaks into my house, enters my bathroom and tries to kill me. Do you suppose I will bathe with my loaded gun? And even if I did, it will do me very little good if the person attacks me before I notice I'm not alone.

I'd rather build an impenetrable wall to my house than depend on a gun to make me safe.


Just having a gun, and depending on that, is probably as bad as doing nothing at all (if you have not trained with the gun and know how to use it and are comfortable with it). The more important thing is planning and situational awareness, not putting yourself in unreasonable or unnecessary danger.

In your scenario of someone breaking into your house when you are in the shower, there might very well be very little you could do about it in any case. (And if there were intent on killing you, there is probably nothing the police could do to prevent it, either.) But that is no reason to not prepare yourself for more likely situations.
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Re: Police State

Postby Shahrazad » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:32 am

But that is no reason to not prepare yourself for more likely situations.
I believe in preparing myself, I just have a different plan than you do. A plan that requires me to be completely alert and ready for combat all the time is not going to work for me. It also involves as much loss of freedom as my voluntary imprisonment.
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Re: Police State

Postby Elizabeth Isabelle » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:59 am

DHodges wrote:Besides a lawyer (and you would certainly want a good one), you are likely to need expert witnesses. The cost can be many tens of thousands of dollars.


So those with access to many tens of thousands of dollars can feel somewhat safe in self-defense, but the poor can expect to be punished for defending themselves.

DHodges wrote:better to be broke than dead.


For some that may be true.
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Pastor beaten and tasered

Postby Tomas » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:37 am

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Pastor beaten and tasered by Border patrol agents at an 'Internal US Checkpoint'

video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YUzd7G875Hc
Don't run to your death
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F.B.I. and States Vastly Expand DNA Databases

Postby Tomas » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:39 am

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F.B.I. and States Vastly Expand DNA Databases

The move, intended to help solve more crimes, is raising concerns about the privacy
of petty offenders and people who are presumed innocent. (see photos)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/us/19DNA.html
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