Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:43 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:That's because that's what power is: the exchange of any effect, change or control of everything we're in relationship with. Since we cannot be said to have a relation to something that is not effecting us or being effected by us, it doesn't make sense to talk about some non-power relationship.
<puts on Hat of Saintly Patience +5>

Yes, kiddo, I already said that every relationship has a power aspect -- just as every relationship has an economic aspect; but to focus on the power aspect is purely and completely your choice, just as it would be your choice, were you to make it, to interpret every relationship primarily in economic terms.

You accuse me of fixating on power, but I do not treat power as the most salient and attention-worthy characteristic of every relationship. That was entirely your own invention, a revelation of your inner obsession and insecurity. You projected that onto me; this obsessively power-centric interpretation came from your head, not mine.

Power is a part of the package, just like many other things are -- but you have a love-hate relationship with it, excoriating others' (imaginary) fixation with it, and yet fixating on it yourself.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Nobody in their right mind would claim that Israel was 'minimizing' civilian casualties during their last incursion.
Phone calls, leaflet warnings, knock missiles -- all of it doesn't exist in your delusional universe.

look up what DIME weapons are. Their very point is to reduce civilian casualties, which goal they achieve admirably by resulting in a much smaller lethality radius.
Man, are you trying to defend the ripping of flesh from the bones of women and children with the full knowledge of the ones firing the weapon?
Go ahead. Give proof that DIME weapons were deliberately fired at women and children.

BTW, DIME weapons don't melt, they shred, with a cloud of microscopic heavy-metal shrapnel. They are less, not more, lethal than conventional munitions, because conventional shrapnel retains killing power for tens and even hundreds of meters, while a DIME blast has lethal radius under 10 meters.

However, I suppose in your twisted universe, it would be better for more people to die of conventional weapons, than fewer people to be killed by DIME bombs.

Did you see any of the images and medical reports? Do you know how many people who were innocent beyond doubt and not close to any militant have been hit by the weapon?
Do tell me how many were not close to any militants at the time. Hundreds and thousands, I imagine?..

Man, you are truly deranged...

You're waffling, the Geneva Treaty bans its use in densely populated areas.
No, it doesn't. That's why ICRC ended up admitting that israel's use of WP smoke munitions is legal. WP incendiaries are illegal in densely populated areas, WP obscurants are not.

It was WP obscurants which were used, not WP incendiaries.

It would be helpful if you showed some reference.
Which ones do you want references for -- israel giving warning phone calls? Diverting missiles mid-flight to avoid civilian casualties? Knock missiles? Dropping warning leaflets? pick your poison.

it is telling, though, that you clearly read or saw absolutely nothing of this. If Israel were trying to indiscriminately kill v=civilians, dummy, the casualties would be in tens and hundreds of thousands.

And who is we? You're a clueless nobody not related to what's happening there in any meaningful way that would provide more insight, the last time I checked.
'We', kiddo, are the people trying to get a handle on what's really going on, rather than on the distorted picture presented by a biased filter.

P.S. And now, just for kicks and giggles, here is something i have written recently. For once in your life, think about it. it wasn't written asbout you and your deranged, ignorant bile, but it might as well have been. Note especially my point about the horrific nature of exsanguination.
White Phosphorus and Depleted Uranium are many centuries old
Or at least the uses to which the ideas of WP and DU are put in the public media, are.

It's blood libel brought into the 21st century, and directed against Israel (of course).

Blood libel -- accusing Jews of drinking the blood of christians, usually christian babies and children -- is not about blood. 'Murder libel' wouldn't have had the same effect. Blood libel is about inducing visceral reaction -- exsanguination is horrific! -- and imputing to Jews malice: pointless, sadistic malice; such malice as makes them totally alien to everyone else.

White Phosphorus is nasty shit. A small piece opf WP can burn through the flesh all the way to the bone. However, other than burning people to a crisp, it has legitimate military uses -- such as producing smoke. This use is recognized as legal by international law. WP smoke-producing munitions are usually filled with WP-impregnated felt wedges, which, due to being felt wedges, don't generally cling to people, but fall down. The pictures of WP from Gaza conflict making rounds on the internet are of smoke rounds. Yes, they can burn people if a burning wedge hits a person by accident. However, that is not their purpose, which is why smoke WP rounds are legal, and using smoke rounds against people is like hammering nails with a cell phone.

That's not how you will hear the story told, though. IDF is burning Palestinians with White Phosphorus just because -- for the sheer sadistic joy of it, I guess -- even though it makes absolutely no military or political sense. It doesn't have to, however. It merely has to 'demonstrate' how evil the Jews are; to ascribe pointless, sadistic malice to them. Making sense would diminish the pointlessness of the claimed evil action, make it less incomprehensible.

And now Depleted Uranium. IDF is trying to irradiate Palestinians with terrible DU shells! Nevermind that DU is about as dangerous, radioactively, as an x-ray -- you can safely spend a night with a DU shell under your mattress. Its danger is not its radioactivity but its toxicity -- it is a heavy metal, and therefore highly toxic. It's also pyrophoric, which means that on impact, it burns up into fine white oxide dust which tends to get into unpleasant places.

DU is absolutely useless against soft targets such as people or houses. Its primary use in munitions is as an armor-piercing material, because it has three key properties: it's pyrophoric, it's extremely dense (about twice denser than lead), and it's self-sharpening (this is called 'adiabatic shear banding'). Shelling city streets with DU is like cutting sheet metal with a glasscutter. It's simply the wrong tool for the job.

However, that doesn't matter -- the salient point is to get the words "Uranium!" and "Radioactive!" out; to create the impression that Israel is trying to irradiate innocent Palestinians; to impute pointless, sadistic malice to the Jews.

None of these accusations make sense. In fact, they aren't supposed to make sense. Creating the impression of pointless malice is their very point, I think; it's how they work -- to paint the Jews as so alien that they do evil not even for gain, but just for the hell of it, from unadulterated perverse cruelty. It's our demonic nature, I suppose.

These sorts of accusations, leveled with no evidence and yet taken up with amazing alacrity, are the modern version of blood libel: the memes which paint Jews as inhuman.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:15 am

Ataraxia wrote:Hehe,bloody hell Diebert,you sure do write some interesting socio/psycholigical insights at times.Scientific materialism as a fascist former- geek reaction
yeah, scientific materialism is fascistic. Try another one, it's got bells on it. <smirk>
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Alex Jacob » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:20 am

Vicdan wrote:

"That's not how you will hear the story told, though. IDF is burning Palestinians with White Phosphorus just because -- for the sheer sadistic joy of it, I guess -- even though it makes absolutely no military or political sense. It doesn't have to, however. It merely has to 'demonstrate' how evil the Jews are; to ascribe pointless, sadistic malice to them. Making sense would diminish the pointlessness of the claimed evil action, make it less incomprehensible."

One of the most salient features of 'judenhass' is the demonization of Jews, to literally define a relationship with a satanic power. But, one would know nothing of it unless one took the time to look into it. Once you have established this link----and in anti-semitic theory this 'training' began many centuries ago in Christian culture---all you need to do now, in modernity, is insinuate this demonic connection, and the belief-structure does the rest. We are of course 'rational beings' but this insinuation by-passes quite effectively rational structures and touches on psychological and unconscious 'knowing'.

The most significant part of this is that, once you have identified the demonic agent, you are duty-bound to describe a route for exposure, control and elimination of that demonic element. That is a Holy Task of course and one that you can dedicate yourself to with your whole being! The Left of course is filled with Righteous youngsters, with rosy cheeks and golden, angelic auras, who clearly see the demonic empire spread over the Earth, who see and explain the mechanisms of diabolical power, and who lock arms and sing in unison the Holy Chants to free the world of the demonic power.

This is romantic politics or a religious politics.

Definition of Anti-semitism

"To antisemites, "Jews are not only partially but totally bad by nature, that is, their bad traits are incorrigible. Because of this bad nature: (1) Jews have to be seen not as individuals but as a collective. (2) Jews remain essentially alien in the surrounding societies. (3) Jews bring disaster on their 'host societies' or on the whole world, they are doing it secretly, therefore the antisemites feel obliged to unmask the conspiratorial, bad Jewish character."

Christianity and anti-semitism

Even Noam Chomsky in his talks on the Gaza War, basically structures his denunciation within this 'frame': he states that upper-level Israelis are fully aware of the terrible war-crimes they commit and, arrogantly, brag of it openly. There is not even an attempt to conceal what can only be a sort of glee in openly murdering civilians.

You could hardly imagine anyone of these critics explaining patiently that, in fact, a great deal of effort is exerted to minimize civilian casualties, and that battle plans are designed around this consideration. It obviously would not play well with the audience.

Chomsky on Gaza
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:43 am

Alex Jacob wrote:One of the most salient features of 'judenhass' is the demonization of Jews, to literally define a relationship with a satanic power.

If your and Victor's views would be what constitutes the complete Jewish way of looking at this issue, I'd be the first to declare myself a Judenhasser and hate what they would represent. With hate here being nothing but strong rejection of content. It would be in my eyes close to a devilish alignment with forces of pure ignorance.

There are two reasons why this isn't as bad in this day and age as you're trying to make it. First of all even a demon Jew would still be a human with all the unassailable rights, which doesn't include the right to take similar rights away from others, whatever the attached history is exactly. Which is what I see as actually happening with the Palestinians. They might harbor devils but that's not enough to dehumanize the entire population! That's a line that shouldn't be crossed, only disaster comes from this, as history has proven many times.

The second reason is my life long exposure to bright, notable Jewish thinkers and writers living inside and outside Israel who were and are opposed to the current Israeli state and its policies. And the fact that many other Jews worldwide are not representing Zionism at all in any way or form.

The question that rises then is what is it exactly, this poison that has infiltrated the mind of many Jews and pro-Israel supporters worldwide. My answer to that is simply said: fascism. The same disease that ate way at the Nation-Socialist movement in Germany, the same disease that took over the communist movements in Russia and the same disease at the heart of neo-conservatism has by now reached the heart of post-WW2 Zionism.

It's a dangerous disease, looking the death-toll in the past it's more lethal than the black plague. So there's a very good reason here to intellectually battle against it each step of the way, offending holocaust sensitivities or not. Actually having grown up in a country where the memories of the rise of fascism, pro-German well as anti-Jew sentiments rose to its horrible heights are very well alive, I do believe I have a clear and pure motive to warn for the developments I see. You might think my vision is misguided or 'wacko' but it's shared with a large variant group and it's not helping anyone to demonize the supposed demonizers. It would help more to show something entirely different instead.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:51 am

vicdan wrote:Power is a part of the package, just like many other things are.

This is quite basic philosophy Victor. Power is the package and its shape can be economical or social or something else. If you're not able to see it you're just not in the discussion and I'm wasting my time here trying to teach some pony a new trick.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:14 am

vicdan wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Nobody in their right mind would claim that Israel was 'minimizing' civilian casualties during their last incursion.
Phone calls, leaflet warnings, knock missiles -- all of it doesn't exist in your delusional universe.

Sure, the most moral military in the world, dropping leaflets in the walled in, locked down camp far down in the back of their garden of Eden. The decision to enter full-force itself, in some cases instructed to shoot at everything that moves is already a decision to not even attempt to minimize anything. Escalation was the policy, civilian death count estimated and accepted.

Go ahead. Give proof that DIME weapons were deliberately fired at women and children.

No, they were deliberately used in a civilian context. That the wrong Palestinian was shredded now and again is to be expected and the dozens of medical reports of possible DIME-related wounds from various hospitals clearly included women and children. It will take some time until evidence is examined thoroughly but do you really want to put some number on the amount of innocents that might be shredded to get to the 'really bad guys'.

Do tell me how many were not close to any militants at the time. Hundreds and thousands, I imagine?..

Exactly why any decision for a full-scale military operation like that is itself a war-crime. It's an illusion you can target only the 'bad' guys. This is a war Israel cannot win, not without going way and way further than this and you [should] know it.

WP incendiaries are illegal in densely populated areas, WP obscurants are not.

That depends on the intent and skill they are used with. If setting fire and causing burns is an effect of considerable impact and could have been foreseen, it certainly can be considered to be used in incendiary fashion. These are case by case evaluations. (IDF probes improper use of phosphorus shells in Gaza Strip).

In Iraq the same hypocritical game was played. The official line was to deny any improper use, the reality on the ground appeared to be more like "shake and bake missions", that is: it was used to flush out suspected enemy positions. And in civilian areas this is even a worse crime. Welcome to the impossibility of winning urban warfare without signing a pact with the devil.

it is telling, though, that you clearly read or saw absolutely nothing of this. If Israel were trying to indiscriminately kill v=civilians, dummy, the casualties would be in tens and hundreds of thousands.

That's why I told you before: not killing indiscriminately doesn't equal 'minimizing' civilian deaths and injuries, neither does it minimize infrastructural damage to an already crippled society. The very idea that this in some convoluted way will secure Israel is insane. It's a love affair with something completely opposite to safety and survival.

'We', kiddo, are the people trying to get a handle on what's really going on, rather than on the distorted picture presented by a biased filter.

It's just more evidence of your closet fascism: this imaginary mass of boots marching through the virtual streets in the name of truth, we the people that know what's going on!
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Tomas » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:39 am

.


-Alex-
...many centuries ago in Christian culture...

-tomas-
Catholic culture (especially the Roman variety) have a difficult time with Jews, whereas the "Christian" culture have less so, even less the fundamental Christian with its many flavors. The television version is way different than the street corner variety. They all prostitute, pimp, whore after the almighty dollar (peso, franc, sterling whatever)...

Alex, are you placing 'Christian culture' in a (one-size fits all) kettle? If so, evidence?

PS - Israel is a pleasant place to visit but not to live. Been there to visit (on political junkets a few times) and would again as a private citizen.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Alex Jacob » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:36 am

Peace with Realism
On Jewish Israel-Haters

Diebert writes:

"If your and Victor's views would be what constitutes the complete Jewish way of looking at this issue, I'd be the first to declare myself a Judenhasser and hate what they would represent. With hate here being nothing but strong rejection of content. It would be in my eyes close to a devilish alignment with forces of pure ignorance."

I hope you will take a look at the content of the web-sites above. Especially the second link which begins a very interesting and useful critique of criticism. As I have been continually pointing out, in this very contentious conflict, there are always two sides to an argument.

As I have said many times, my 'memory' with this issue starts in 1967, when various nations gleefully assumed they could wipe Israel off the map. Who really knows what would have happened if Israel had not prevailed? One must guess, but given so much treatment of Jews historically one might be wise to assume the worst. But they did not prevail, and the current issues in the broad sense stem from this time-period and the policies that were formed. It is not at all impossible that bad decisions were made, and Israel could share responsibility in bad decisions.

Unlike you, I don't see Israel 'success' (that they prevailed, that they won, that they continue to survive) as a suitable reason for judenhass. Yet, there are many---possibly most---who do. You have not and will not acknowledge this rather elemental truth, it seems to me. That is always for me a red flag, and it is a red flag I pay close attention to.

I point to the psychology of anti-semitism for a few reasons. The first is that here, on this forum, there are some obvious anti-semites of the most basic sort. True, they are like retarded children and on one level they can be dismissed, but one can find the same basic sentiment all over the Internet, Diebert. You only have to have the willingness to look at it. Also, it morphs from the virulently rabid (and stupid)(like Faust or Leyla and to a certain extent Dan) to something that is not at all inconsiderable, for example the voluminous content of the New Tribal Review. This is not empty discourse and it is not discourse without effect. Others here, I have noted, have distorted ideas about Jews that have likely been influenced by this second category of information. It is a kind of demonological realism, a sort of historical-fantastical dramatism in which almost any imagined thing could take place, anything you want to take place.

It is dangerous because, for so many people, they really have no way of ordering their perception about the world, they are truly in the dark and do not know how to 'locate' themselves. If you thrust a narrative at them it more or less pushes them over and 'possesses' them. When you mix in anti-Jewish and anti-Israel insinuations and suggestions, that could very well be exaggerations and partial truths (or outright lies) you run a very serious risk. I know many, many people whose perception of Israel's policies and this conflict are completely skewed and they simply do not know what to think, and they also do not know how to describe and articulate a road to peace.

That is a very, very important point, if one is genuinely interested in peace. As I have been saying, supporting the enemies of Israel directly or indirectly and denying certain important facts about the Israeli struggle for survival, is not an effort without effect: continuing misery, suffering, impoverishment. This is why I personally conclude that we all need to support realistic plans that are predicated on the complete acceptance of the Israel state to exist, which could also include a revamping of anti-semitic ideas and distortions which are taught in some Arab countries.

I say that if this were really to become the operating position for all parties, that a road to peace would open up, it would become visible, it would 'manifest'.

That is where my measuring stick starts. If I don't hear that I am not at all inclined to listen to the narrative. My position is so common-sense that it would surely be your position (if you were faced with such an existential issue) as well as that of every person who reads here.

The pill I suggest swallowing in order to begin to 'see clearly' is just that one.

"The question that rises then is what is it exactly, this poison that has infiltrated the mind of many Jews and pro-Israel supporters worldwide. My answer to that is simply said: fascism. The same disease that ate way at the Nation-Socialist movement in Germany, the same disease that took over the communist movements in Russia and the same disease at the heart of neo-conservatism has by now reached the heart of post-WW2 Zionism."

Yours is a bad-faith argument, I say, a sort of wolf in sheep's clothing. You operate a position and you tart it up to look highly reasonable, and you move in easy strides to the location of the problem: Israeli fascism. You have located the problem and now you have only to take action against it, and that is your solution, that is what you do. You have therefor placed ALL the blame on Israel, and I suggest to you that doing that expresses...At best it is simply bad faith, but there are worst-case scenarios.

This is pretty much how the argument runs, Diebert, and it is the narrative 'playing at a theatre nearest you'.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:06 pm

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:The second reason is my life long exposure to bright, notable Jewish thinkers and writers living inside and outside Israel who were and are opposed to the current Israeli state and its policies. And the fact that many other Jews worldwide are not representing Zionism at all in any way or form.
Indeed. There are many jews who still, after all these centuries, foolishly hope for the world's kindness and mercy. Just as the german jews a century ago did.

The question that rises then is what is it exactly, this poison that has infiltrated the mind of many Jews and pro-Israel supporters worldwide. My answer to that is simply said: fascism.
of course. A jew must be either anti-zionist, or he is a fascist. Riiiiight.

And you must be an idiot.

This is quite basic philosophy Victor. Power is the package
Yup, I knew it. You are an idiot obsessed with power -- power you do not have.

The funny thing is, you arrived at this claim in order to deny my non-power-centric view of the world; but you deny it to ascribe fascistic power obsession to me, which would become simply realistic, rather than fascistic, if power really is what it's all about (it would become it, that is, if i shared your autistic power-centric view of the world).

You have completely lost track of the thesis, kiddo. You have all the attention span of a housefly. You haven't even realized that you are contradicting your own claim. You started out by saying that i am a fascist because I see everything in terms of power relations, but now you claim that the power nature of everything is simply a fact -- and thus can no more undergird fascism than, say, being subject to gravity can.

You would be amusing if you weren't so vaingloriously self-important.

Sure, the most moral military in the world, dropping leaflets in the walled in, locked down camp far down in the back of their garden of Eden. The decision to enter full-force itself, in some cases instructed to shoot at everything that moves is already a decision to not even attempt to minimize anything.
In short, your mind is made up, and you won't be confused with facts -- the facts of how IDF went to great extent to minimize civilian casualties.

No, they were deliberately used in a civilian context.
Which part of 'prove' do you fail to understand, dear? Cite some evidence, with references. And then, if you manage to do it, cite some evidence showing that DIME weapons actually incurred more civilian casualties than conventional munitions would have.

not killing indiscriminately doesn't equal 'minimizing' civilian deaths and injuries
No, actually minimizing them -- as in, taking overt (and militarily disadvantageous) actions to avoid civilians deaths -- does.

It's just more evidence of your closet fascism: this imaginary mass of boots marching through the virtual streets in the name of truth, we the people that know what's going on!
<LOL> yeah, reading the news is fascism too now.

You are a bigoted, insecure hack, dude. Sooner or later you will have to come to terms with that.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Tomas » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:29 am

.


-vicdan-
You should really visit Israel. You won't be sorry.

-tomas-
You plan on ever going back for a visit?

The girlfriend wants to go back, perhaps in 2011.

After Israel etc, I'd like to go back to the Great Pyramid. Then hop over to Asir, Saudi Arabia (Yemen).

PS - Osama BinLadin's mother is a Yemeni Jew..
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:14 am

Tomas wrote:.


-vicdan-
You should really visit Israel. You won't be sorry.

-tomas-
You plan on ever going back for a visit?
Someday.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Alex Jacob » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:09 am

Take your time on this, Diebert. No hurry...

;-)
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:12 pm

Oh Diiiie-beeert! Come out and plaaaa-aaaay!

So about IDF shelling a UN school? Ooooops, that claim was an, uhhh, ummm, a clerical error:
A clerical error led the UN to falsely accuse Israel of shelling one of its Gaza schools in the Jabalya refugee camp during Operation Cast Lead, the international organization admitted this week.

For close to a month, the UN accused the Israel of hitting the educational compound ran by its Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, which was sheltering more than 1,300 Gazans as the IDF battled Hamas in the camp on January 6.
...
At the time UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called the IDF attack "outrageous" and demanded an investigation.

But on Tuesday, the UN's Office for Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) slipped a "clarification" notice on the head of its weekly field report from Gaza.
...
"The humanitarian coordinator would like to clarify that the shelling, and all of the fatalities, took place outside rather than inside the school," the original field report stated.
...
In addition, the [Israeli] defense officials said it was not certain that the number of casualties reported by the UN, 43, was accurate and that Military Intelligence had noticed Hamas attempts to cover up the identity of those killed in the strike.

"We know of at least three terrorists among the dead," one official said. "It is clear that there were more people killed but Hamas has been covering up their identities.
So, let's sum it up:

The school headmaster is a known rocket-maker for the terrorists.

Strikes are launched at IDF from near the school, according to local witnesses.

IDF strikes back.

Among the dead are many civilians, but also terrorists. Clearly they were hitting a military target; but how the fuck did dozens of civilians just
happen to be concentrated in such a site?

Somehow the report becomes an accusation of IDF deliberately shelling a school -- an innocent civilian installation.

This proves that Israel is murdering innocent civilians on purpose!



Does this about cover it? Or do you have some other evidence of IDF deliberately targeting civilians for flesh-melting and other monstrous types of demise?

P.S. Apparently what really happened was that IDF shelled a building near the school which was a munitions depot -- the thing blew up and damaged the school, which also explains the civilian body count. If course nobody expected Hamas to build a munitions depot near a school, oh no!
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:35 am

Sorry guys, life is so big and this forum is so small and this topic so fundamentally misunderstood, it all disappears from my radar fairly quickly on moments time and energy are not overflowing.

Alex Lieberman wrote:As I have been saying, supporting the enemies of Israel directly or indirectly and denying certain important facts about the Israeli struggle for survival, is not an effort without effect: continuing misery, suffering, impoverishment. This is why I personally conclude that we all need to support realistic plans that are predicated on the complete acceptance of the Israel state to exist, which could also include a revamping of anti-semitic ideas and distortions which are taught in some Arab countries.

Sure, the world has to form around your beliefs or demands. And all the other folks with fundamentally differing ideals, beliefs, perceptions and experiences have to cave in or experience most of the misery, suffering, impoverishment, or finally of course: extermination as the only solution left. It's absurd when stated naked like this but it's the reality of your line of thought, it's how that works out on the ground, a place you're not living on. There's total moral equivalence between the demand the current state of Israel has to remain as is and any demand it should disappear. Both are completely ignorant positions too.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:04 am

vicdan wrote:You started out by saying that i am a fascist because I see everything in terms of power relations, but now you claim that the power nature of everything is simply a fact -- and thus can no more undergird fascism than, say, being subject to gravity can.

No, you just made that up. Interesting move. But I'll say it again:

Fascism is fascination with power but also denial of how power actually works which is one of the factors which can lead to the excessive fascination if circumstance allow; it's ignorance in a coconut shell. Here are some condensed parts of what was actually written.

Victor wrote:1) I am not interested in strength or power. i am interested in wholeness ....2) My drive and control are directed inwards......I score near the bottom on authoritarianism and social domination scales....
I have absolutely no interest in controlling, or exerting power over, you or anyone else. My ability to exert power outwards, whatever its magnitude, is purely a side effect of what I am; a fringe benefit,

Diebert wrote: ...Your stressing that you do not desire to control anyone, even are abhorred by the idea, is suspect in itself..... you're continuously exerting power over others or being dominated and manipulated.....
....Fixation on virility and aggression with fascists is an expression of a lack, not a strength......While at the core of fascism lies the natural desire to wield power, to be close to power, it doesn't actually become any source of power. It remains an empty shell........Fascism is the corruption and anti-thesis of strength, masked as its worshiper. And the means are the signs: overly display of strength and aggression, far outside the bounds of reason or strategic sense.

You see, I suspect your lack of interest and concern, your degradation as side-effect of power relations, no matter if you're exerting it or the power is exerted over you, point in my view to a misunderstanding of power itself if not merely some contrived masquerading act. While your holistic ideas sound fine and dandy, the sum of your forum behavior, geeky past and current political views made me think you do not understand power at all and your claimed disinterest would be only a facade, a smoke screen of ignorance. Your very passion for knowledge and teaching is just one example of exerting power. Which is not bad at all unless you think you're being jolly Santa Claus while doing it. Then you're just kidding yourself, "forever kiddo" :)
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Tomas » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:13 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Sorry guys, life is so big and this forum is so small and this topic so fundamentally misunderstood, it all disappears from my radar fairly quickly on moments time and energy are not overflowing.

Alex Lieberman wrote:As I have been saying, supporting the enemies of Israel directly or indirectly and denying certain important facts about the Israeli struggle for survival, is not an effort without effect: continuing misery, suffering, impoverishment. This is why I personally conclude that we all need to support realistic plans that are predicated on the complete acceptance of the Israel state to exist, which could also include a revamping of anti-semitic ideas and distortions which are taught in some Arab countries.

Sure, the world has to form around your beliefs or demands. And all the other folks with fundamentally differing ideals, beliefs, perceptions and experiences have to cave in or experience most of the misery, suffering, impoverishment, or finally of course: extermination as the only solution left. It's absurd when stated naked like this but it's the reality of your line of thought, it's how that works out on the ground, a place you're not living on. There's total moral equivalence between the demand the current state of Israel has to remain as is and any demand it should disappear. Both are completely ignorant positions too.


Yes, odd that he would send financial support for various causes and not be willing to set foot there and see how his $$$ money is being spent.

It's kinda like the some of the christian telemarketers getting on TV and saying send us your $$$ contributions and we'll see to it that "Israel" is saved for Jesus.

Yup, I'm going down to Democratic party headquarters and take part in the Obama "Change" he's so rambling on about. Oops, my absentee ballot wasn't sent .. yeah right.

PS - Send your tax deductible gifts to the "holy land". Never visit, just believe...
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:19 am

vicdan wrote:So about IDF shelling a UN school? Ooooops, that claim was an, uhhh, ummm, a clerical error

I wasn't aware I posted anything relating to that incident. Initially the IDF had actually said they fired at the school too, to make matters more complex. And the fact that Hamas is the driving force behind so many humanitarian and educational efforts, like a shadow-government, makes any war against Hamas so incredibly suspect. Attacking Hamas equals attacking the population it's an integral part of. It's not just a 'terrorist' group, like Hezbollah isn't either. It's a matter of accepting they won't go away, either.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:44 am

Did I forget anything? Oh, there's this...

vicdan wrote:
Sure, the most moral military in the world, dropping leaflets in the walled in, locked down camp far down in the back of their garden of Eden. The decision to enter full-force itself, in some cases instructed to shoot at everything that moves is already a decision to not even attempt to minimize anything.
In short, your mind is made up, and you won't be confused with facts -- the facts of how IDF went to great extent to minimize civilian casualties.

Here's a good article published in the New York Times and other places which paints in my view a way more balancing picture: In Shattered Gaza Town, Roots of Seething Split. There's this brilliant remark from resident Gambour: "I figured it would be like all the other times when they dropped leaflets, so we went inside and waited". You should read the whole thing though instead of counting beans.

. And then, if you manage to do it, cite some evidence showing that DIME weapons actually incurred more civilian casualties than conventional munitions would have.

My point was addressing the type of injuries caused which are very hard to treat compared to conventional wounds. As for the complete picture I rather wait for actual investigations are being finalized.

It's possible I won't post a reply for another week.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:58 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:No, you just made that up. Interesting move. But I'll say it again:

Fascism is fascination with power but also denial of how power actually works which is one of the factors which can lead to the excessive fascination if circumstance allow; it's ignorance in a coconut shell. Here are some condensed parts of what was actually written.

Victor wrote:1) I am not interested in strength or power. i am interested in wholeness ....2) My drive and control are directed inwards......I score near the bottom on authoritarianism and social domination scales....
I have absolutely no interest in controlling, or exerting power over, you or anyone else. My ability to exert power outwards, whatever its magnitude, is purely a side effect of what I am; a fringe benefit,

Diebert wrote: ...Your stressing that you do not desire to control anyone, even are abhorred by the idea, is suspect in itself..... you're continuously exerting power over others or being dominated and manipulated.....
That last excerpt is interesting. let's see its context:

you seem to believe in some synergistic web where nothing stands or acts alone and equilibria of power seeking agents are established. From this perspective you're continuously exerting power over others or being dominated and manipulated.

So you ascribe a power-centric view to me -- wrongly (I don't believe the web of relations to be defined by power equilibria, unlike you) -- and then you accuse me of fixating on power, when in fact it's only your own power fixation which you reveal and then project onto me.

You see, I suspect your lack of interest and concern, your degradation as side-effect of power relations, no matter if you're exerting it or the power is exerted over you, point in my view to a misunderstanding of power itself if not merely some contrived masquerading act.
of course. According to you, all relations are power relations, that is their essential nature apparently ('Power is the package') -- of course this is a self-evident philosophical truth to you, yessireebob! -- and if I disagree with you, this merely means that I am a fascist and naively ignorant about power.

You are like an autistic kid who insists that all physical laws are the package, that relations are defined by physical laws. So they are... but that's just a small part of the story, and your fixation, your exclusion of all other relation aspects besides power, says more about you than about me.

Every human relation has a physics aspect, a physical (in colloquial sense) aspect, a sociological, psychological, economic, epistemic, etc. aspects -- and yeah, the power aspect too. You choose what to focus on. You set your priorities. Well, you chose your priority (power uber alles!) apparently without recognizing that this was optional, that you had many alternatives available. How sadly amusing... you mistake your subconscious fears and cravings for reality.

While your holistic ideas sound fine and dandy, the sum of your forum behavior, geeky past and current political views made me think you do not understand power at all and your claimed disinterest would be only a facade, a smoke screen of ignorance.
No, kiddo, you simply assume that understanding power must come with a certain attitude (and BTW you know basically nothing about my current political views, other than the fact that i am a zionist). I could venture a guess about what that attitude is, bit I shall refrain from doing so for now. Your view is apparently that since my behavior doesn't conform with how you think someone ought to act if they understand this matter, then I must be all sorts of nasty things. This was BTW why i asked you if you read "Watchmen" -- it has an incredibly interesting and subtle tangent on the relationship between power and knowledge (and wisdom).

As I said earlier, unapologetic wholeness scares you people. You can't deal with the rejection of your neurotic love-hate relationship with power, the attitude which neither covets power nor flees from it. :)

I suspect your underlying drive here is self-loathing. You crave power yet recoil from it, recoil from that craving, and so you see the world in terms of power, assume this perception to be reality, project it onto others, and then castigate them for supposedly fixating on power -- when in fact it's your own obsession you are excoriating, your own fixation you are trying to exorcise.

Your neuroticism must be a one helluva bitch. :)

Your very passion for knowledge and teaching is just one example of exerting power. Which is not bad at all unless you think you're being jolly Santa Claus while doing it. Then you're just kidding yourself, "forever kiddo" :)
You of course missed it, but I had stated many times that I don't see myself as a 'good guy', nor do I see myself as a teacher. In fact, seeing myself as a 'good person', a teacher and a giver, was one of the very first illusions I let go of, which I had alluded to in the recent past.

Like ability to exert power, teaching is wholly incidental to what I am. that's why I make absolutely no effort to influence people into accepting my statements, except for the fact of making the statements itself. I have had multiple people 'advise' me that I could teach better if I were willing to be more manipulative -- excuse me, nicer and less abrasive -- and to them I always say that teaching is not my goal. Learn from me, or not, it's your business, not mine. You cannot serve two masters, so to speak, and knowledge, not teaching, is my first choice (power doesn't even make it into the top 3).

Yours, apparently, is power, and you hate yourself for it, even as you fail to recognize that it's a choice, only one of many options, and not the objectively essential nature of the world. :)
Last edited by vicdan on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:05 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
vicdan wrote:So about IDF shelling a UN school? Ooooops, that claim was an, uhhh, ummm, a clerical error

I wasn't aware I posted anything relating to that incident.
I was making a general point about your "Israel is deliberately murdering innocent civilians!" thing.

And the fact that Hamas is the driving force behind so many humanitarian and educational efforts, like a shadow-government, makes any war against Hamas so incredibly suspect.
urban gangs tend to do some community work too, to earn some social cred in their neighborhoods. That doesn't make them anything other than gangs.

My point was addressing the type of injuries caused which are very hard to treat compared to conventional wounds.
DIME injuries are damn near untreatable, and they are highly carcinogenic to boot. However, DIMEs also have much, much smaller lethality radius than conventional munitions; that'sw their very purpose. So if your choice is -- 10 dead and 10 treatably wounded, of 5 dead and 5 untreatably wounded -- you will pick the former, it seems.

I thought so.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Alex Jacob » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:07 am

Diebert wrote:

"Sure, the world has to form around your beliefs or demands. And all the other folks with fundamentally differing ideals, beliefs, perceptions and experiences have to cave in or experience most of the misery, suffering, impoverishment, or finally of course: extermination as the only solution left. It's absurd when stated naked like this but it's the reality of your line of thought, it's how that works out on the ground, a place you're not living on. There's total moral equivalence between the demand the current state of Israel has to remain as is and any demand it should disappear. Both are completely ignorant positions too."

Including the word 'exterminate' is bad faith on your part.

Clearly I am not on the verge of convincing you, but it is my hope to at least plant an idea in some reader's head, that these contentious narratives need to be carefully sorted through. I know that there are many ugly, difficult and painful facts that hover around all of this, and any sensitive person will surely see that. One of the things I have thought, and it is not a thought that fits into either 'support' or non-support' of Israel (as against the Palestinians or the Arab neighbors who have a stake) is that what a strange fate that Fate has placed Jews (some anyway) in such a position. How much easier it all would have been if there would have been some painless solution! Israel has had to fight tooth and nail from the very beginning, and that fight has cost a great deal, not even mentioning the pain and suffering on the other side. It is a very difficult and painful issue. Though I don't seem to accept either your premises or your conclusions, at the very least I do respect your tenacity in defending what you think is right. I can't deny though that I would have wished to have been able to influence you.

It is true I have not been to Israel personally, and also that I am to some degree extrapolating from situations I see on the ground here in Colombia, which may not be useful. But, what I believe is that there comes a time when one needs to begin to cooperate with the present, and also with the 'powers that be'. One needs to assess and reassess the stances of rebellion and what informs those decisions. Sometimes the decision to rebel violently is not the right one or the best one, and the weight of the mistake falls on those who launch rebellions. There is a time to see that the battle has not and likely will not turn out as you wish, and there is a time to make other choices (sorry if this sounds like lines from Ecclesiastes, it is not intended). On the other hand, if you accept the discourse of the President of Iran, it is an inevitability that Jews be removed from Arab lands. For them this is the 'truth' of history, and it is a divine truth.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:59 pm

Alex Jacob wrote: if you accept the discourse of the President of Iran, it is an inevitability that Jews be removed from Arab lands. For them this is the 'truth' of history, and it is a divine truth.

Iran is not Arab.

There always have been Jews living in Iran, although many left over time. They still have a Jew in parliament even. Historically their treatment has been wildly varying but not so different from how Christianity treated their heretic cults.

And I'd be interested in any formal and current statements which call for Jews to disappear from the Middle East. This seems a complete and dangerous, poisoning mis-representation of the political and religious drive over there, besides the usual fringe groups.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:25 pm

vicdan wrote:So you ascribe a power-centric view to me -- wrongly (I don't believe the web of relations to be defined by power equilibria, unlike you) -- and then you accuse me of fixating on power, when in fact it's only your own power fixation which you reveal and then project onto me.

No, the power-centric view is indeed mine and I generously ascribed it to you as your other writing would imply it. It's clear you do not want to make that connection: fine. Fixation on power is not the same as recognizing how power works and relates. Fixation arises out of ignorance and a lack of a proper holistic view on how power is exerted.

Every human relation has a physics aspect, a physical (in colloquial sense) aspect, a sociological, psychological, economic, epistemic, etc. aspects -- and yeah, the power aspect too.

To me, power equals force which equals ability to effect, a fundamental aspect of energy. This is way more fundamental than the aspects you name. For some reason you keep interpreting power as a form of human domination. That's just your psychological obsession which you rather see in me than yourself, apparently. Remember it was you with a past as cult leader so do not try to project these tendencies on others.

You crave power yet recoil from it, recoil from that craving, and so you see the world in terms of power, assume this perception to be reality, project it onto others, and then castigate them for supposedly fixating on power -- when in fact it's your own obsession you are excoriating, your own fixation you are trying to exorcise.

You were castigating me for this fixation, remember, again and again? Your problem is merely ignorance of power but there's some distant, hidden fascination with it visible as well that in different circumstances would easily turn you into a full blown fascist. Hence my introduction of the term 'closet'. This means what I explained to be the underlying mechanics of fascism would be barely visible with you. So denying fixation is irrelevant as I never claimed you were.

Like ability to exert power, teaching is wholly incidental to what I am. that's why I make absolutely no effort to influence people into accepting my statements, except for the fact of making the statements itself.

Then do you know what causes you to make the statements, now you've left behind the charade of teaching and informing? Do you have a complex variant of Touret's syndrome (seems sometimes like it)? What motivates you, what drives you to spend the actual labor? Don't give me the deprived 'entertainment' as some have said in the past: this is normally an excuse to cover unconscious elements.

Yours, apparently, is power, and you hate yourself for it, even as you fail to recognize that it's a choice, only one of many options, and not the objectively essential nature of the world. :)

Force binds the world together, so it appear to be its very nature. What is there to chose?
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:38 pm

vicdan wrote:urban gangs tend to do some community work too, to earn some social cred in their neighborhoods. That doesn't make them anything other than gangs.

Urban gangs building hospitals, schools and supplying welfare to piss poor people? Seriously?

Vicdan wrote: So if your choice is -- 10 dead and 10 treatably wounded, of 5 dead and 5 untreatably wounded -- you will pick the former, it seems.

In that case I count 10 dead in each case but a difference in degree of suffering involved with the untreatable wounds (unless one would euthanize them quickly, or a head shot perhaps). Perhaps you should rephrase your argument as to appear less moronic?
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