Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Leyla Shen » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:01 am

wishful thinking wrote:Indeed. However, this doesn't constitute discrimination against israeli arabs.


DISCRIMINATION AGAINST PALESTINIAN ARAB CHILDREN IN THE ISRAELI EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM

Israel: Family Reunification Ruling Is Discriminatory

Dar al-Hanun has been there 80 years, but state still refuses to recognize it

Still Landless in Zion

"If you win in court, so what?

The lack of housing in the Arab sector pushes hundreds of young Arab couples to seek apartments in nearby Jewish areas, such as Makosh Hill in Carmiel and Nazareth Illit. If they succeed, it will usually be as renters, although some do manage to buy. Their entry provokes racist expressions on the part of Jews who oppose having Arab neighbors and who worry that they will bring down property values.

In 1995 the Qaadans, an Arab family, tried to buy land in a new community settlement called Katzir, which was established by the Jewish Agency. They encountered the same administrative obstacle that had kept Arabs out of all such settlements. [snip]
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:48 am

Deluded Turkey wrote:
wishful thinking wrote:
Read what I wrote, dummy: "The arab situation in Israel is comparable to the black situation in US -- the de facto discrimination is real and exists, but they are a fully legally enfranchised minority."

The only actual point you have is about the marriage law. That is indeed discriminatory. If palestinians use fictitious marriage to acquire Israeli residency or citizenship, the target should be fictitious marriages, not cross-border palestinian marriages.

That law was upheld in 2006 by the slimmest of margins -- 5 to 6 -- in the supreme court. i wish it weren't. However, israeli arabs are still the freest major arab population in the world.

P.S. is Armenian genocide still imaginary?
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:46 am

vicdan wrote:No, what resulted in a dismissal is hamas's refusal to give up either its goal of destroying Israel, or its fixation on terrorism. Are you surprised? We didn't respect Nazi Germany's democratic choice either.

Because there was none. Germany's Reichstag Fire Decree or Enabling Act of 1933 cannot be said to be some democratic choice. These were political choices made by a government that started to believe their state's foundation would dissolve in the face of communist terrorism and economical threat. Communist and socialist parties were also blocked from the 'democratic' elections leading up to this.

They [Arabs] can't go across checkpoints or travel abroad?

The most obvious destination would be the West Bank and that's to put it mildly quite a hassle. Returning and visiting Arabs are also targeted above and beyond any reasonable standard at the airport. All under the banner of 'security' I'm sure but the end result remains.

In a highly militarized society as Israel not allowing to serve in the military creates huge gaps economically and socially.
Huh? Not allowed? Not required; and vast majority elect not to. However, some volunteer, and serve in the IDF.

This is my bad, they are indeed allowed as volunteer. But the gaps are real and it remains an issue when such a large group in the population is disagreeing with fundamental policies regarding fellow Arabs. Not requiring them to serve is a way-out of a tricky division but at the same time widens the gap. But I admit this doesn't count as a 'right', as it would be the right to be forced. But I've read that they try to introduce a required national service as alternative. This also will only partition the country even further in my opinion.

The Law of Return clearly targets Jews worldwide, persecuted or not, while denying Arab refugees to come back from the 1948 affair.
Indeed. However, this doesn't constitute discrimination against israeli arabs.


You mean the fled Arabs or their family got their land back? Even the Arabs remaining in Israel at the time but were temporary moved out of the war-zones or couldn't provide the right papers were disowned. Lacking the desire to resolve this constitutes discrimination. It doesn't expire after sixty years you know when children and grand-children still stand next to the crime scene.

Militants let back in Gaza, Israel threatens sanctions in December 2005, three months after total withdrawal, they were still threatening sanctions. The rockets kept on coming. Israel didn't impose full sanctions until 2007

Well, Hamas was participating and winning a couple of local elections. Allowing their own leadership to move around doesn't seem like a strange thing to me. Anyway, even the rather common temporary closures were invasive enough to be considered acts of war against not only Hamas but against a whole population effectively.

But lets see where your rockets are:
Violence in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict 2005, nothing in November or December related to Hamas.
Violence in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict 2006, amidst all mutual violence it's not exactly raining rockets the first months and it can be disputed if they came from Hamas in any tangible way. They were not in a position to assert much control at the time. More accurate or neutral lists are always welcome.

From the references [Israeli source] you can find out Israel was still assassinating lots of targets and performing cross-border raids right before and still after the election. This is not withdrawal and it's generally not regarded by any serious analysts. It was preparation for what we've seen happening last months.

Hamas didn't reject either its constitutional goal of demolishing Israel, or its embrace of terrorism.

They probably see it as justified, armed resistance against a declaration of an illegal state at the cost of the rights of a large ethic and cultural group. Forcing them to 'reject' it is an unreasonable demand, it sabotages any dialog before it even happens. Which is probably what is in fact happening at both sides: people have already made up their minds that dialog is impossible so they come with unreasonable conditions.

However, Israel didn't blockade Gaza until Hamas took over in mid-2007, in a bloody internal fight with Fatah a year and a half after the actual Hamas election.


You must be mad. Israel's closure policy and disengagement politics did nothing but wreck an economy which was so dependent on open access to Israel. What happened is that Israel again and again tries to dump the problem, like cutting off a disobedient limb and then when the limb starts to die off blame the processes of decay for it!

Note that Hamas was elected a mere four months after Israel pulled out, but Israel didn't bar Gaza imports and exports until another year and a half later, while it still looked like palestinians had some chance to work out a peaceful governance solution.


Completely barring imports and exports (added to the partial and temporary stalling for decades) is barbaric. It's a solution that has to end in more war and violence. Not knowing that is dangerously stupid and knowing that is dangerously genocidal.

if you love death more than Israelis love life, as Hamas keeps claiming.


This is about the willingness to sacrifice and it always has been. It's a correct observation that the Western Judeo-Christian ideology does not have this willingness ingrained into its population. Nothing is important enough and the afterlife is uncertain. In the end the saying is a historical reference to the heights of the Muslim Empire and its military strength - and with it an impressive civilization nevertheless. So 'loving death' in the same manner as loving life [or loving neither] doesn't have to be an indication of nihilism or depravity.

It's things like this that show how alien the Jewish identity is from any Islamic one in cultural and ideological references. And how bad the idea was to create a Zionist state with the sacrifices Israel is willing to make regarding their own population and the ones opposing them. You can't beat a culture of death by killing more of them as it only reinforces. You need to teach them life or taking away a motive for the sacrifice at least. A long process but one cannot perform some clean break like a few hours at the dentist and be rid of it. That kind of thinking is delusional and will be demonstrated nicely the coming year when analysis of current events has settled.
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Hamas already broke ceasefire

Postby vicdan » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:48 am

Is anyone really surprised?
Rockets hit despite Israeli cease-fire

The United States has welcomed Israel's ceasefire in the Gaza Strip and the limited truce announced afterwards by Hamas. Washington said it expected all parties to stop hostile actions immediately. Despite the unilateral ceasefire declared by Israel, Palestinian militants have continued to launch rockets. Israel says 18 struck without injury near the southern town of Sderot. Israeli warplanes replied by hitting a rocket launch site at Beit Hanun. Announcing the Israeli ceasefire early Sunday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said troops involved in Israel's three-week offensive would initially remain inside Gaza. Hamas has demanded a full pullout.
Welcome to reality, kids.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:54 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Victor wrote:Hamas didn't reject either its constitutional goal of demolishing Israel, or its embrace of terrorism.

They probably see it as justified, armed resistance against a declaration of an illegal state at the cost of the rights of a large ethic and cultural group.
There you go. And israelis see this view as an existential threat -- justifiably, of course. Somehow, though, i get a feeling you aren't willing to extend to Israel the same benefit of generous interpretation you extend to Hamas.

Hamas incorporates Protocols into their core principles. To any honest person, this should say all that needs to be said about them; but not to you apparently.

You must be mad. Israel's closure policy and disengagement politics did nothing but wreck an economy which was so dependent on open access to Israel. What happened is that Israel again and again tries to dump the problem, like cutting off a disobedient limb and then when the limb starts to die off blame the processes of decay for it!
Gaza was allowed both exports and imports for nearly two years. Instead, they launched rockets. Case closed.
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Re: Hamas already broke ceasefire

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:09 am

vicdan wrote:Is anyone really surprised?
Rockets hit despite Israeli cease-fire

Duh, not after Hamas specifically and repeatedly announced they wouldn't stop without complete retreat of invading troops and a lift of the economical blockades. So they did as they said they would do. Consistency is not really their weakest point.

Edit: Hamas is not the only group shooting rockets so this could be another reason why they would seem to break their self-imposed truce. Also, since Israel has destroyed much of the infrastructure and communication abilities of Hamas, it also doesn't seem fair to demand a perfect organization in place to enforce internal agreement.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:31 am

vicdan wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Victor wrote:Hamas didn't reject either its constitutional goal of demolishing Israel, or its embrace of terrorism.

They probably see it as justified, armed resistance against a declaration of an illegal state at the cost of the rights of a large ethic and cultural group.
There you go. And israelis see this view as an existential threat -- justifiably, of course. Somehow, though, i get a feeling you aren't willing to extend to Israel the same benefit of generous interpretation you extend to Hamas.

Sure. And the moment both parties realize that 'same benefits' have to be extended to each other, a better process might start. The only reason I aim at Israel in these discussions is because responsibility lies heavier at the side which has the power to respond meaningfully, even if it would include taking great risks, the price of open democracy and freedom in every nation. And I see no trace of a policy in the making in the Knesset that would lead to anything near a solution. Actually all policies of last years are heading toward disaster, out of control violence.

Hamas incorporates Protocols into their core principles. To any honest person, this should say all that needs to be said about them; but not to you apparently.

I do not care much about it. Obama is sworn in on the Holy Bible, perhaps an even more warped book with a more bloody history of abuse. And as long as idiots like Olmert are boasting in the press how they can boss the US president around, the Protocols remain a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

Gaza was allowed both exports and imports for nearly two years. Instead, they launched rockets. Case closed.

This looks like an utterly wrong representation of the facts. But it might take some effort to lay-out the whole time-line, perhaps later this week if you don't mind. I hope you realize how it sounds: Israel allowed a bordering state completely dependent on Israel's economy trade for nearly two years. It implies there were years before and after it was not allowed? What did Israel do during those two years, any cross border raids? Any assassinations? Any other violations? Oversimplifying a case to death is not the same as closing it.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:56 am

Diebert wrote:Duh, not after Hamas specifically and repeatedly announced they wouldn't stop without complete retreat of invading troops and a lift of the economical blockades. So they did as they said they would do. Consistency is not really their weakest point.
it's not their consistency that is in question, but their motivation. They clearly don't want peace, but rather a chance to regroup and re-arm.

Also, since Israel has destroyed much of the infrastructure and communication abilities of Hamas, it also doesn't seem fair to demand a perfect organization in place to enforce internal agreement.
Cell phones seem to work fine there.

I hope you realize how it sounds: Israel allowed a bordering state completely dependent on Israel's economy trade for nearly two years. It implies there were years before and after it was not allowed?
No, it implies that Israel pulled out the settlement and their own forces. For two years, Gaza had a chance to show which direction they wanted to go in: peace and constructive engagement, or more murder and mayhem? They had a chance to show whence their dreams were leading them.

They had shown.

Nobody would expect them to build a civil society in two years. However, we expected them to at least show signs of moving in that direction.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Alex Jacob » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:20 am

Which is how I understand things.

There is no will to contruct a civil society because the general thrust is toward a denial of the present, the reality of the present, and another will altogether: to do away with Israel. As long as this exists as the core of their program they will not be able to make progress. It would be so helpful if the formulators of the Left could see this, could name it. Generations come and go and no sane person comes on the scene with a cogent, healthy plan to cooperate with the existing structures both of Israel and the world, and to begin the long and difficult path of forging a path out of poverty and ignorance, using the resources of those who would contribute to the Palestinian cause in a constructive, smart way. When you find yourself in a "ghetto" where this mentality exists, you see that the impoverished and the ignorant often succeed in maintaining and recreating their impoverished situation, and so it becomes an issue of changing this mentality, and the issue becomes very complex at this point. The resouce that never runs out for the Palestinians is an endless supply of meddlers and ennablers who support them in staying in the hole they find themselves in. The original supporters of the Palestinians, in the West, were those "revolutionary" sectors that wanted to do away with their own states and construct a whole new world. The Palestinian "cause" has been feeding off this same sector, even when it changes form in each generation, and so I think it is these enablers who share responsibility for the maintenence of misery.

If those who support the Palestinians were to refuse to support the violent alternatives proposed by Hamas and others like them and to focus exclusively on constructing (with European capital) a civil infrastructure with civil ends proposed, Gaza would be a very different place.

I don't know if the comparison is fair, or how useful it is, but I live in a place that suffers from real poverty, which does have (or did have) some external causes, but now a "system" has been created and it is almost a mental disease that keeps people acting in the same ways that maintain their impoverishment. Here too one sees not only "simple ignorance" but also bellicose, resisting tendencies: the complete refusal to cooperate and, as an end, to choose to do battle with the power of the state, and it all compounds impoverishment, and yet those stuck in the system cannot, it seems, find their way out. The only way to deal with such people, such factions (violent factions) is to strike at them with violence, and sadly it is sometimes the "only language they understand". I never would have felt comfortable saying such a thing, pertaining to Colombia, but that is what I see. The only "dialogues" I can lend support to are those that seek to workd constructively and creatively to build a civil society, to complete educations and become professional, or to learn a trade, start a business, build wealth. All the discourses that have violence and civil conflict as an end have to be resited with violence.

I'll bet that there is a whole sector in Gaza (Palestinian) culture that is longing for the day that the culture of endless (Palestinian) violence come to an end, and who would support it and work for it (and who are). They are likely marginalized by other factions, with very different ideas.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:52 am

vicdan wrote:They clearly don't want peace, but rather a chance to regroup and re-arm.

They want their own state and control over it. Re-arming is not that strange. Didn't Israel group and arm around 1948, like hell they did. You seem to imply they should give up and trust the international 'community', Israel or Fatah? Do they have any reason to?

Also, since Israel has destroyed much of the infrastructure and communication abilities of Hamas, it also doesn't seem fair to demand a perfect organization in place to enforce internal agreement.
Cell phones seem to work fine there.

No serious military or militant uses cell phones to inform their vulnerable outposts about what to do. You're kidding, right?

For two years, Gaza had a chance to show which direction they wanted to go in: peace and constructive engagement, or more murder and mayhem?

First of all you conveniently ignore the fact that Israel kept killing scores of Palestinian bystanders, militants, Hamas members and leaders in the mean time. And at the same time expecting 'constructive engagement'? This only keeps the spiral of violence intact and I'm sure Israel knew that.

And to bring the point further home: from the IMF report: Economic Developments in 2006

After having experienced a modest recovery in 2003–05, the Palestinian economy suffered another decline in 2006, as a result of the domestic and international political difficulties .... confronted with a diplomatic and financial isolation by the international community. ... Restrictions on movement and access imposed by Israel were intensified significantly during 2006, particularly in Gaza, severely limiting the flow of goods and people. Israel also detained several Hamas ministers and members of parliament, complicating the government’s ability to function, and since March 2006 has withheld most of the indirect taxes—so-called clearance revenues—it collects on behalf of the PA, thus contributing to a severe fiscal crisis.

So lets examine the recovery 2003-2005.

IMF 2004:
unemployment in the West Bank and Gaza increased from 24 percent at end-2003 to 29 percent at mid-2004. The unemployment situation is particularly acute in Gaza, where economic activity has been disrupted by incursions of the Israeli Army and by the closure of the Erez Industrial Zone that has reduced the flow of Palestinian workers to Israel from Gaza,

From IMF report 2005 (PDF)

. The real growth rates underpinning medium-term projections assume that private sector investment and spending, rather than the government, will become the engine of growth. This would require a major relaxation of Israeli closures and checkpoints over the next three years, allowing much freer movement of people and goods in the West Bank and Gaza. In the absence of this, growth is likely to slow much more sharply than envisaged here, which would severely undermine the fiscal stabilization plan.

Now Victor, considering all the above, the clear hurdles to growth and transport Israel imposed on Gaza and the continuous counter-intelligence raids and assassinations, why do you keep pretending Israel offered some bleeding heart opportunities to Gaza? They didn't although I'm sure the average Israeli rather lives in her mental bomb-shelter of unconnected reality. Time to wake up!
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:16 am

Alex Jacob wrote:There is no will to contruct a civil society because the general thrust is toward a denial of the present, the reality of the present, and another will altogether: to do away with Israel.
And that doesn't seem to be going away.

See, Israel is an existential insult to the muslim world. In koran, jews are apes and pigs, inferior beings, inherently deficient -- and muslims comprise the most perfect society possible, at least potentially; and yet here are the jews, not only re-establishing their homeland on formerly islamic lands, which itself is an affront, but repelling the combined might of muslim armies -- and then achieving the level of prosperity and strength muslim countries only dream about!

The very existence of Israel is a fundamental challenge to, and defiance of, the islamist worldview.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Leyla Shen » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:31 am

^Yeah, here we go. And what is "the Canaanite" to the Israeli before the Kuran was a glint in anyone's eye, I wonder....
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Leyla Shen » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:34 am

Whinging Jew wrote:
Deluded Turkey wrote:
wishful thinking wrote:
Read what I wrote, dummy: "The arab situation in Israel is comparable to the black situation in US -- the de facto discrimination is real and exists, but they are a fully legally enfranchised minority."


Thanks, but I had already duly noted the scraps you have thrown their way.

P.S. is Armenian genocide still imaginary?


I tell you what, if Israel agrees to give Palestine Israeli owned land in exchange for the number of Palestinians they have specifically targeted because they are Palestinians and consequently killed (including "collateral damage") over the years and without recourse to any other consideration and, further, if every present nation duly compensates every other nation whose innocent people have been killed through the ages, then I will meaningfully call it genocide. Otherwise, no, I have no actual REASON to support this particular political ploy.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Alex Jacob » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:37 am

Diebert writes;

"They want their own state and control over it. Re-arming is not that strange. Didn't Israel group and arm around 1948, like hell they did. You seem to imply they should give up and trust the international 'community', Israel or Fatah? Do they have any reason to?"

The "simple" decision to relinquish the stated goal of annihilating the Israeli state (replacing it), and the "simple" will to create a civil society within the context of a world that would welcome a sane, constructive player, would open all the right doors, and those doors would open one after the other in a startlingly organized way. In life when one comes on the correct means, which always arises from the right (internal) decision, life itself supports the plan.

What YOU want (you are forgetting yourself and your role in the narrative even as you see yourself as the Voice of Sobriety) is also that they "rearm", that they get a state whose terms they control, etc. If they got a state with equal military capability they would, it seems, use those capabilities, and that is why they will not be allowed to get them.

Even though Israel armed itself, it did it in the face of a stated purpose; to wipe Israel off the map. The "horror" for the surrounding armies was that they couldn't, that they failed. This is a wound in the pride of Arab culture that might never be forgiven. Having an enemy who will not forget is not a wonderful state of affairs, really. It is exhausting. Israel does not pose a threat to the existing states in the region, it has never stated this as its purpose, and for that reason is a "responsible" state.

When has Palestinian leadership even succeeded in communicating to a serious international community that they are interested in participating in the order of things, as smart players, constructive players, participating in the mercantile system? Like...never perhaps? It is always on the fringes of absurd, unrealistic choices, in ways that always lead to ruin.

When will they and when will you be able to see clearly reality, and describe it?
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:16 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:They want their own state and control over it.
is that all? i guess all that verbiage about destroying Israel is just Lorem Ipsum.

Re-arming is not that strange. Didn't Israel group and arm around 1948, like hell they did. You seem to imply they should give up and trust the international 'community', Israel or Fatah? Do they have any reason to?
No, i seem to be implying that they have absolutely no interest in the actual peace.

No serious military or militant uses cell phones to inform their vulnerable outposts about what to do. You're kidding, right?
Actually that is exactly what they use. Without being a major military which can maintain its own cryptographically secure communications infrastructure, public communication channels are all you have left; so it's either cell phones or guys on bikes.

First of all you conveniently ignore the fact that Israel kept killing scores of Palestinian bystanders, militants, Hamas members and leaders in the mean time. And at the same time expecting 'constructive engagement'? This only keeps the spiral of violence intact and I'm sure Israel knew that.
The first palestinian in Gaza killed since the withdrawal on 9/12/2005 was a militant assassinated from a helicopter -- on 9/25, two weeks after the withdrawal; four days after Hamas abducted, and then killed, an Israeli businessman Sasson Nuriel. In the meantime, the rockets kept flying. The next gazan palestinian who was killed was also a militant assassinated a month later, on 10/27. During that month, the rockets never stopped flying.

After having experienced a modest recovery in 2003–05, the Palestinian economy suffered another decline in 2006, as a result of the domestic and international political difficulties .... confronted with a diplomatic and financial isolation by the international community. ... Restrictions on movement and access imposed by Israel were intensified significantly during 2006, particularly in Gaza, severely limiting the flow of goods and people. Israel also detained several Hamas ministers and members of parliament, complicating the government’s ability to function, and since March 2006 has withheld most of the indirect taxes—so-called clearance revenues—it collects on behalf of the PA, thus contributing to a severe fiscal crisis.
Right. That's what you get when you expect to get revenues from the entity you are blood-swon to destroy. You, you know, don't get them.

Now Victor, considering all the above, the clear hurdles to growth and transport Israel imposed on Gaza and the continuous counter-intelligence raids and assassinations, why do you keep pretending Israel offered some bleeding heart opportunities to Gaza?
Because they did. Not bleeding-heart certainly -- Israeli security takes priority -- but they did. Palestinians first elected Hamas, and Hamas then chose to keep escalating hostilities, but slowly enough to give cover to people like you.

This was of course to be expected. Hamas is, after all, fundamentally, constitutionally opposes Israel's very existence. As long as this remains their core commitment, any peace is automatically just breathing room for them to resume attacks. Hamas could have shown that they are committed to governing rather than murdering. They didn't.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:19 am

Leyla Shen wrote:I tell you what, if Israel agrees to give Palestine Israeli owned land in exchange for the number of Palestinians they have specifically targeted because they are Palestinians and consequently killed (including "collateral damage") over the years and without recourse to any other consideration and, further, if every present nation duly compensates every other nation whose innocent people have been killed through the ages, then I will meaningfully call it genocide. Otherwise, no, I have no actual REASON to support this particular political ploy.
Other than the fact of its veracity, of course.

Your willingness to use genocide as a political bargaining chip, while frantically denying its undeniable historicity, has been duly noted.
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Re: WHY SO MANY ROCKETS?

Postby mansman » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:55 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
mansman wrote: why the rockets were shot off in the first place and when they began to be fired, can anyone say?

The truce crumbled [it was expiring anyway] during a conflict over the strangling economical blockade which Hamas wants lifted and Israel not. The six month period didn't bring a solution closer. Some border raids followed, smuggling networks attacked by Israel, retaliation, nothing new.

Deeper lying issues seem to revolve around the issue of security. Israel feels that it cannot allow a hostile independent state developing on its complex border, threatening the unity and safety of their Jewish state. The Palestinians do not believe Israel has the right to dictate this development considering the past. Then Israel tries to impair Palestine anyway it can, to turn it into a powerless third world ghetto and Palestine tries to remain in the media spotlight with their protests and attacks, trying to keep pressure on their 'issue' as political bargaining chip, hoping for some more international involvement as it's the only bit of power they think they have. Which in turn gives only more excuses for Israel to continue their policies and prevent Palestine to ever get any means to become a threat on longer term. This is a never-ending spiral of course.

Most events are also used as preparation for the negotiation table because sooner or later they have to return there. Both parties seem to think they can let the other party lose face, lose bargaining power this way.
Thank you Diebert. If I may pursue this......

....could I ask you to be more specific about that economical blockade, what products are not allowed in, why those products, what explanation or reasoning is given for prohibiting such on one side, and for requiring it on the other?

Cant Gaza import whatever it wants from the sea?
Better yet- by air?

So, if the Ps were allowed to import whatever they needed (exclding bombs and such) do you reckon the rockets might stop?

Gaza appears to be totally cut-off from its Arab relatives to the east, I mean WHO would want to live there? And why only THOSE muslims- if the place is so holy and important to that religion why do most of its adherents live elsewhere?
Can Ps travel in and out of G freely, passing through I?

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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:35 am

mansman wrote:....could I ask you to be more specific about that economical blockade, what products are not allowed in, why those products, what explanation or reasoning is given for prohibiting such on one side, and for requiring it on the other?

Well, firstly, it's also about export of cheap products and labor to a well developed nearby consumer market. Money doesn't grow on trees but by transporting the trees to the man or the man to the trees. An important part of the economy is reliant on the good job market inside Israel which needs cheap labor too. So now Israel imports their labor from somewhere else instead.

Secondly I wouldn't know quickly what kinds of restriction on products are in place right now. The larger point is that economy really needs an easy flow of money and people. That is the lifeblood. Any stagnation, serious queuing, unpredictable delays [days, weeks, months] in deliveries, cause strong price fluctuations or even outright damage with fresh goods that become a show-stopper for many businesses. Business cannot wait. That's why blockades are an act of war if it would involve a sovereign country, not different than bombing it from an economical perspective.

Cant Gaza import whatever it wants from the sea?

No, as it includes full Israeli naval blockades. But even the sea port as planned for ages AFAIK would be fully under Israeli control as first proposed, checking all incoming and outgoing shipments on sea and inside the harbor. It's not finished at this time to fulfill any roll as economical impulse. Has been bombed too in the past but it's mainly a lack of investors in the current volatile risky climate.

Better yet- by air?

There's a rather new and modern airport but after Israel bombed the radar and bulldozed the landing strips it's sitting there unused. IF they would allow planes full of passengers to come and go the blockade would effectively be broken as they couldn't shoot planes down with hundreds of people. Israel would have to rely on security arrangement with Palestinian police but are not inclined to. Or they have to force passengers to be transported to a checkpoint at the border and back which seems even from afar unacceptable and unworkable. Although it has been done for a while I think.

The only alternative is under ground and this has created a whole alternative market. But it includes weapon trade as well and this is why the tunnels, seen by some as lifeline in economical terms, are forcefully shut down by Israel and allies. The moral, anything you don't solve above ground starts living under ground. This works like that in many ways.

Further fairly accurate information: Israel's control of the airspace and the territorial waters of the Gaza Strip

So, if the Ps were allowed to import whatever they needed (exclding bombs and such) do you reckon the rockets might stop?

Short answer: yes. This is because only a working economy with future prospects will give the local government the means and credit to handle militant fanatics that might still desire conflict with Israel. It's not easy to prevent import of bombs though, many materials are dual-use and the government needs weapons too to combat crime and terrorism.

Gaza appears to be totally cut-off from its Arab relatives to the east, I mean WHO would want to live there? And why only THOSE muslims- if the place is so holy and important to that religion why do most of its adherents live elsewhere?

Many fled from what is now Israel. Many others came earlier from Egypt. A minority of Jews fled away from here to Israel. It's an ancient place and as such it has roots for many people but it's not a particular holy place apart from one old mosque perhaps. The nearest holy place, that would lie outside Gaza, Jerusalem I'd guess. You should ask the question: where could they go?

Can Ps travel in and out of G freely, passing through I?

In principle yes but in practice it seems unpredictable and slow moving with the usual stories of bad treatment or sense of threat and harassment. Although I take that with a grain of salt, it's probably an emotional perspective and military trained people have to react in certain ways when there would be doubt about intentions.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Alex Jacob » Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:57 am

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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:53 am

Alex Jacob wrote:"Be intolerant to the intolerant'...I like the sound of it.
As much as we humanistically repudiate the "eye for an eye" mentality, the fact is that the desire for revenge is hard-wired into us, and for a very good reason -- it's one of the things which makes society possible. Study after study shows that humans are willing to punish unfairness and betrayal even to their own detriment, and mathematical simulations demonstrate that such a willingness to punish is integral to cutting short the attempts to 'game the system', to ruthlessly exploit others for one's own benefit. The revenge impulse, in moderation, is what keeps the society honest and coherent.

In a sense, a person exacting revenge is like a soldier covering with their body an armed grenade -- they sacrifice their own good for the sake of society, for the sake of everyone knowing that transgressions will be punished.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Shahrazad » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:58 am

Victor said,

In a sense, a person exacting revenge is like a soldier covering with their body an armed grenade -- they sacrifice their own good for the sake of society, for the sake of everyone knowing that transgressions will be punished.


Oh, so THAT is where the suicidal-bomber mentality comes from.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Alex Jacob » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:41 am

What I appreciated in the interview with this Dutchman was his statement that, according to him, many in Holland (Europe presumably) have lost the ability to define themselves, that they no longer know who they are, or what has made them what they are. So, in that climate, all things are seen as equal, or there is a tendency toward toleration that goes to extremes, that is incapable of 'judging' or refuses to make judgments, or that refuses to set limits for the behavior of others.

One would imagine that this toleration is 'enlightened', insofar as it arises from honest intentions, or from 'good-heartedness', but it is at least interesting to consider how bad people can and do take advantage of over-tolerant attitudes. Also, that over-toleration is a form of enabling, an allowance of 'bad behavior'. Toleration is then a kind of weakness and not strength, and what is called for is the ability to see (clearly distinguish), decide, and take action without being consumed by all the minutiae of modern liberalism. One has to know what one really values, and what one does not value, and to take the risk of acting according to one's will.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby vicdan » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:22 pm

Shahrazad wrote:Oh, so THAT is where the suicidal-bomber mentality comes from.
In part, yes. Note, however, that revenge is only good in moderation -- and only against the actual guilty parties. Too much revenge, like too much anything, it a major problem, and misdirected revenge completely loses its point.

Suicide bombings are the rational revenge impulse corrupted and subverted to serve an ideology.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Shahrazad » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:25 pm

Note, however, that revenge is only good in moderation -- and only against the actual guilty parties.
Right, and that is where the suicide bombers are not being rational. Killing an innocent person is not what "eye for an eye" is about.

Suicide bombings are the rational revenge impulse corrupted and subverted to serve an ideology.
Exactly my mentality.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:31 pm

Alex Jacob wrote:What I appreciated in the interview with this Dutchman was his statement that, according to him, many in Holland (Europe presumably) have lost the ability to define themselves

Most people see him as a cheap populist here, Alex. He's able to stir up a lot of dust, lots of interviews and controversy but the guy doesn't even have any serious political program of any kind, not even a party in any representative sense. In a political sense he doesn't exist.

This week he was foaming in parliament about Sesame Street being rescheduled on state television to make place for a news program with a strong multicultural angle. All those upset parents who cannot put the kids in front of the television anymore after dinner. Because that is of course Dutch identity [or as our Princess Maxima said: "I couldn't find the Dutch identity..." and jokingly: "it's the large curtain-less windows, one cookie with coffee"].

That's the level of this politician and to be honest that's the level of the thinking resonating with him. Apart from him being essentially Fascist in every sense of the word and a great supporter of Israel, what a surprise! Imagined identity galore!
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