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Postby Shahrazad » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:06 am

And then there's Sue, who IMO is a fascinating example of how far some women will go and how much they will sacrifice psychologically in order to keep a father figure in their children's lives. My suspicion is that she long ago learned the only way to keep David around (and therefore at least somewhat involved with their son) was to parrot him. By now, she probably believes all of it.

This is an incredibly bold thing to say. I'm curious, would you have said this same thing to Sue in real life, face to face?

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Postby Unidian » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:00 am

Why would that matter?

I dunno, it depends on what was being discussed, I guess. But I think the "would you say this in person" question is pretty irrelevant to internet dynamics, since we aren't here to have the kind of conversations we generally have "in person."
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Postby Shardrol » Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:02 am

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:I have come to recognize that my PTSD is so bad, that primarily I don't just have the disorder, I am the disorder. I also have the effects of a female brain, too much testosterone for a female, and a high IQ, but all in all, I am a disorder. It is only insulting when someone tries to play psychologist and tries to give me an inaccurate label, but that is insulting because it lacks truth. It is dehumanizing to recognize that I am a disorder, but it is not insulting because it is true.

I am sorry you feel that way. For my part I would not say that any human being is a disorder. We are human, then we have our various qualities. No label can be perfectly accurate. We are more than that.
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Postby Elizabeth Isabelle » Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:53 am

Being human does not make us particularly special. One label does not completely cover it just like "apple" doesn't provide a full description of what kind of apple and its condition - but we are the sum of what we are, and we basically are what we primarily are - whether or not anyone ever came up with a term for it.
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Postby Shahrazad » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:44 am

Why would that matter?

It doesn't.

I dunno, it depends on what was being discussed, I guess. But I think the "would you say this in person" question is pretty irrelevant to internet dynamics, since we aren't here to have the kind of conversations we generally have "in person."

I'll take that as a no.

I was just appalled that you said it. IMO, it was a bold thing to say even for this medium.

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Postby Faust » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:45 am

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Shardrol wrote:It would be even more beneficial to apply this to oneself.


Who said we do not? I have come to recognize that my PTSD is so bad, that primarily I don't just have the disorder, I am the disorder. I also have the effects of a female brain, too much testosterone for a female, and a high IQ, but all in all, I am a disorder. It is only insulting when someone tries to play psychologist and tries to give me an inaccurate label, but that is insulting because it lacks truth. It is dehumanizing to recognize that I am a disorder, but it is not insulting because it is true.
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did you say that too much testosterone and a high IQ makes you a disorder because you're a woman?
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Postby Shahrazad » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:47 am

If she really did have too much testosterone, she'd be thinking about sex about half of the time.
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Postby Elizabeth Isabelle » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:53 am

Faust13 wrote:did you say that too much testosterone and a high IQ makes you a disorder because you're a woman?


No, the extent of the manifestations of PTSD makes me a disorder.

Sher - I used to have quite a sex drive, but being married to my ex could knock that desire out of anybody.
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Postby Shahrazad » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Sher - I used to have quite a sex drive, but being married to my ex could knock that desire out of anybody.

Temporarily, I can understand, but you've been divorced for years.
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Postby Shardrol » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:10 pm

Did you see that description on another thread of Elizabeth's married life? It practically put me off sex forever just reading it. I can't imagine what it must have been like to live it.
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Postby Faust » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:24 pm

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Faust13 wrote:did you say that too much testosterone and a high IQ makes you a disorder because you're a woman?


No, the extent of the manifestations of PTSD makes me a disorder.

Sher - I used to have quite a sex drive, but being married to my ex could knock that desire out of anybody.
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so what is the relevance of your high testosterone and iq? also, how do you know that you really have high testosterone?
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Postby Elizabeth Isabelle » Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:38 pm

Medical tests were done quite some time ago. I don't understand what you mean by "relevance" - they are just conditions that mix with the PTSD that make me how I am. The testosterone leads to a competitive streak and the IQ allows me to follow more complex concepts and figure out answers, but at this point, the PTSD is negating the usefulness of these things, so they are largely irrelevant. I've even come to realize that the "signs of enlightenment" as presented by DQ and co. that I was experiencing were merely manifestations of PTSD that I had not previously experienced to this extent. Even having recently gone back on medication, it's getting worse again. There really isn't a "person" left in here anymore, only a disorder.
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Postby Shahrazad » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:26 pm

There really isn't a "person" left in here anymore, only a disorder.

Oh, come on, Eliza. Just listen to yourself. There are people with far larger disorders than you, and they carry on with life just fine. My oldest daughter is in much greater trouble than you are, and I never hear her feeling sorry for herself. Sure, some shallow people look at her and all they see is a disorder, but I see a unique person.

If you recently got back into meds, you must know that it will take a while to see real improvement. Be patient.

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Postby Elizabeth Isabelle » Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:53 am

That was extremely insulting Sher. It isn't a matter of feeling sorry for myself, it was a response to this:

Shardrol wrote:It would be even more beneficial to apply this to oneself.


Furthermore, you do not have enough of an idea what's going on inside my head or your daughter's head to make a comparison. I only shared this much in response to the topic at hand, and in response to questions. And I doubt your daughter would be particularly willing to share what's on her mind if your response to her has ever been to the effect of "oh, you're just feeling sorry for yourself."
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Postby Unidian » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:42 am

Yeah, the "feeling sorry for yourself" bit is about the most insulting thing you can say to someone who has real issues. I wasn't even the target and I felt offended reading it.
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Postby Faust » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:36 am

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Medical tests were done quite some time ago. I don't understand what you mean by "relevance" - they are just conditions that mix with the PTSD that make me how I am. The testosterone leads to a competitive streak and the IQ allows me to follow more complex concepts and figure out answers, but at this point, the PTSD is negating the usefulness of these things, so they are largely irrelevant. I've even come to realize that the "signs of enlightenment" as presented by DQ and co. that I was experiencing were merely manifestations of PTSD that I had not previously experienced to this extent. Even having recently gone back on medication, it's getting worse again. There really isn't a "person" left in here anymore, only a disorder.
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what is your condition specifically if you care to answer? i know what ptsd is, but what are the specific conditions you are experiencing?

also, women compete too, i don't think testosterone is the sole cause of competition.
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Postby Shahrazad » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:10 am

Nat,

Yeah, the "feeling sorry for yourself" bit is about the most insulting thing you can say to someone who has real issues. I wasn't even the target and I felt offended reading it.

It's really funny you would have this type of reaction, because I was extremely offended when I read the viciousness with which Elizabeth was treated for pages and pages in a thread in a forum where you are/were an admin. You, however, were not offended at all by those insults. Could it be that you have different standards for what constitutes offensive behavior for people you don't like as opposed to the ones you like? It does seem to me that you are unable to separate the behavior from the person.

This inability has been manifested in many ways throughout the years. For example, you would have someone you don't like banned for behavior that you would very well tolerate from someone you like.

Eliz,

Sorry, I wasn't trying to insult you. I think you're a person with great qualities and don't like to see you focusing on the few bad ones.

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Postby Unidian » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:46 am

Shar,

It's really funny you would have this type of reaction, because I was extremely offended when I read the viciousness with which Elizabeth was treated for pages and pages in a thread in a forum where you are/were an admin. You, however, were not offended at all by those insults.


Elizabeth brought that sort of reaction on herself through her behavior, such as antagonizing Katy and later posting extremely vulgar images on our message boards. You are misrepresenting the situation, however. Up until (and to a lesser extent after) Elizabeth made the infamous picture posts, I consistently called for her to be shown more compassionate treatment due to her psychological condition, which was clearly troubled at the time.

Now that Elizabeth has apparently made some progress and distanced herself from psychologically masochistic views about women which we clearly causing her enormous stress, I think she's on the road to getting some relief. I hope this happens, because I think Elizabeth is a highly intelligent and worthwhile person who has been victimized in apalling ways. That doesn't mean we're going to put up with obsessive badgering or vulgar images on our sites, though.

Could it be that you have different standards for what constitutes offensive behavior for people you don't like as opposed to the ones you like?


Could it be? Well yeah, duh. Show me any person who does not display this quality to a greater or lesser degree. It's human nature.

For example, you're criticizing me right now because you are still resentful about the "idiot" comment, which earned me a place on your shit list. If we were still on good terms, you wouldn't have brought any of this up.

Project much?

It does seem to me that you are unable to separate the behavior from the person.


Nor do I want to. Behavior reflects character. Separating the behavior from the person too often can get you in trouble.

This inability has been manifested in many ways throughout the years. For example, you would have someone you don't like banned for behavior that you would very well tolerate from someone you like.


So would pretty much every message board administrator in the world, to some extent.

Got any more insightful revelations?
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Postby Shahrazad » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:46 am

Nat,

You are misrepresenting the situation, however. Up until (and to a lesser extent after) Elizabeth made the infamous picture posts, I consistently called for her to be shown more compassionate treatment due to her psychological condition, which was clearly troubled at the time.

Well, you definitely did not do enough to stop it. I did talk to you at one point about it and you acted completely unconcerned.

Now that Elizabeth has apparently made some progress and distanced herself from psychologically masochistic views about women which we clearly causing her enormous stress, I think she's on the road to getting some relief.

How has she distanced herself from those views, if she still posts here almost every day?

Could it be? Well yeah, duh. Show me any person who does not display this quality to a greater or lesser degree. It's human nature.

The key phrase here is to a greater or lesser degree. You exhibit it to a greater degree.

For example, you're criticizing me right now because you are still resentful about the "idiot" comment, which earned me a place on your shit list.

I can't say that I'm happy with your recent behavior, but saying that you're on my shit list is stretching it.

So would pretty much every message board administrator in the world, to some extent.

But not to the extent you do it. Most people at least try to be fair.

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Postby Jamesh » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:42 pm

Yeah, the "feeling sorry for yourself" bit is about the most insulting thing you can say to someone who has real issues. I wasn't even the target and I felt offended reading it.


It is true though. The softcock brigade pretends otherwise, but that doesn't mean that this statement is not correct. How many times have you looked back at our own past and realised just how strong this self pity business really was.

Although feeling sorry for oneself is more often true than not, I do agree that such comments almost never lead a person to "get over it".

So she's back on the pharmacy drugs. I thought she was being more sensible (less chatty and more direct). I thought her recent review of the QWR was pretty spot on.
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Postby Katy » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:41 pm

Shahrazad wrote:Well, you definitely did not do enough to stop it. I did talk to you at one point about it and you acted completely unconcerned.


Well, it really isn't Nat's place to censor everything said on a message board where he's an admin. Especially when he's not the head admin. However, as someone who was more involved in the situation than yourself (read: involved at all) I can tell you that what Nat says here is true. He advocated treating Eliza with compassion multiple times. He also advocated not treating her like I treat Sid because she is still in control of her faculties.

I think Nat is one of the best people I've met at figuring out the "shades of gray" that constitute mental illness, and figuring out how much accountability different people should have, actually.

And at any rate, abusing Eliza seems to have been the single best thing we could have done for her, if it finally pushed her into receiving medical attention for her issues. As I commented at the time, my pleas with her to receive mental help were genuine (if intentionally button pushing). And while I won't pretend my intentions were clean - I was angry and afraid - some good did come of it.

How has she distanced herself from those views, if she still posts here almost every day?


There's a large difference in her posts though. For a long time she sounded like a recording of QRS but now she challenges them more than she used to. Even her posts about the psychological influence of rape have changed. Go back and look at the thread she had with JamesH - the one she was involved in when she first came to FP - or the one where she suggests Aaron raped someone vs her recent one with Nordic... the difference is quite dramatic, actually, and as far as I can tell almost entirely positive.
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Postby Shahrazad » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:29 pm

Well, it really isn't Nat's place to censor everything said on a message board where he's an admin.

I didn't say he should've censored it. All I said was that when I talked to him, he didn't sound concerned about the abuse Eliza was undergoing. Heck, he didn't even recognize it as abuse.

Katy, Nat has admitted that he is unable to separate the behavior from the person. I am very sure that, had the abusers not been members of his harem, he would've seen how unacceptably vicious they were being.

Even if what I said to Eliza was wrong, my intent was not to hurt, whereas Nat's harem was certainly out to hurt her. Certainly intentions should be taken into account. Nat would be able to see and admit this if he didn't despise me and like his harem so much.

Too late to defend him, Katy. He has admitted he has that flaw. Deal with it.

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Postby Shahrazad » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:34 pm

Katy,

Maybe I should clarify that the reason that I took Eliza's comment so personally is that I have a disordered daughter, and it completely pisses me off when all some people can see in her is a disorder.
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Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:58 pm

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:I've even come to realize that the "signs of enlightenment" as presented by DQ and co. that I was experiencing were merely manifestations of PTSD that I had not previously experienced to this extent.


An interesting statement. These "signs", whatever you have in mind with that term, have also been compared to various personality disorders, schizophrenia and/or temporal lobe epilepsies or other problems with our brain chemistry.

The effects might be real, devastating in the wrong circumstances even but it might be too convenient to always put a label on something nobody really understands fully.

I personally don't believe in 'perfect' enlightenment with some 'Ubermensch' type of clean bill of (mental) health attached. I believe characters like Buddha and Jesus, if they existed, were not without major flaws. History just filtered the raw human elements out of it, turned them into ideals. The closer to our own time we get the easier to see in people like Kierkegaard and Nietzsche or Weininger, even an U.G. or Osho, that they had serious blocks in some areas, no matter if their nature was medical or psychological, or 'purely' cultural.

The wise walks on a narrow path and I don't know of any real 3-D person worthy of listening to that wasn't somehow also struggling with the fall-out or limitations of their condition. Real consequences which might need real medication or constraining or sometimes needs nothing at all. Every journey is unique in that sense.

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Postby Elizabeth Isabelle » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:39 am

Katy wrote:And at any rate, abusing Eliza seems to have been the single best thing we could have done for her, if it finally pushed her into receiving medical attention for her issues.


This is bullshit. I went to get medical attention because after the stock market crash, I lost confidence that I'd be able to get an income through investments, and knew that if I'm to try to get a job, I'd have to fix the leaky tear duct problem that concurrently arose (it wasn't really crying because I did not perceive emotions with it, it was just streams of water that kept running down my face). There is no way I can get a job without having that problem fixed. If even thinking about having to work for someone else causes flashbacks of what they did to me at my last job, I could never get through an interview in one piece.

What's more Katy, it's amazing how you dodge all responsibility in your treatment of me. You'd either make a long string of subtle attacks across the boards, or attack and delete, and when I'd say something back, you'd cry the wounded victim (and you're still doing it) and people would believe you because they didn't see all the elements of what you'd done. At least you admit it here:

Katy wrote:As I commented at the time, my pleas with her to receive mental help were genuine (if intentionally button pushing).


Intentionally pushing the buttons of someone with PTSD is never, ever helpful.

And you're projecting too much onto the medication. The interaction with Nordi put me into a nasty tailspin with some wretched flashbacks, and if nothing else, you can see that by the fact that I was not able to let go of the topic for days after he said he was done posting. All of the other things - even with Aaron as you mentioned - were gone within a day. Actually I'm still recovering from the one with Nordicvs, and that was when I stopped posting as much. Dealing with that while I was already in rough shape from flashbacks related to the sexual harassment on my last job, and even worse how management had what I found out was a pattern of covering up for this guy when he had done this sort of thing to various employees over the years...

The world is full of people like Noridcvs, and people like you who like to push people's buttons and try to play like you're doing something good by doing that. At the moment, I am not dealing well with that piece of reality about how people are.

I really didn't want to respond to this thread anymore, but I had to straighten out your thinking that button pushing was a good idea. You claim to have compassion, Katy, and I have never asked for it until now. Now I am asking you to please let this drop. The meds made me feel better for the first week, but since then I've been spiraling down. I don't want to publish all the things I'm going through right now online, but I will tell you that one of the things is that I'm getting enough sleep again that the nightmares about my mother have returned - and there are a couple of bits of your personality that remind me of her - so please Katy, just let this drop.
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edit to add - and Nat, for the record, I had not taken the misogynistic approach (and if you think I did, please show me which posts I did that in). If anything, I am growing to recognize more truth in some of what they say about that. In a post stamped March 24, 2007 11:36 a.m. -
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Yanno, it's getting harder and harder to point out why it's wrong to use the QRS Woman definition.

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