Iran nukes?

[sschaula]

Scott,

Leyla,

The good old days that never left, the good old days when the country was always on the verge of civil war? I think, given your reasoning, you might have to rethink that.

Is that the military before or after Saddam?

After. Beforehand it was Saddam's military.

If the country has always been on the verge of civil war, what difference does it make whichever government is in power?

The country hasn't always been "on the verge of civil war". They've always been the way they are. You could call it civil war, I guess. I wouldn't call terrorism versus good innocent people, a war. I wouldn't call extremist groups, militias. I guess who cares how it's said though.

Will the big defeat that was the removal of Saddam guarantee peace, freedom and democracy, or not?

Of course it hasn't. It was good to do though.

If not, what is the real good that has been done by it, Scott? If they have been given freedom like you have in America, why does G Dubbya simply not just pull out now?

They've actually been given freedom, yet a lot of people in Iraq don't want it for some reason. The have elections and there's always some catastrophe that goes along with it. That's why the US military is still there. What's the real good that's been done by it, Leyla? The real good is that we've taken measures against terrorist organizations attacking the US again, by occupying Iraq and Afghanistan...remember that's what spawned this whole war. Your kind says it's oil, or some agenda. Some even say that Bush planned the 9-11 attacks in order to go to war. Your kind just pulls this stuff out of nowhere. For that reason, I feel like after this post we shouldn't continue talking. I've said enough. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

But you understand their minds enough from over here to hold such a certain view of right and wrong action? To put your faith entirely in G Dubbya? Or are you being dogmatic? Define “way too much dogma.”

One...don't call the President some pet name, as if you're any better. That'd be the same as calling your boss "asshole" at work. Show some respect. Secondly, I'm enlightened. I understand more things than regular people do, so yea I'm qualified, and I'm not being dogmatic. I also don't put my faith in anyone besides myself.

Tenet: the Middle East is the axis of evil.

I think the problem must be in the landmass itself, then. You know, like the ground is possessed by the devil. Yeah, stuff the real world’s made of.

No, I don't think the Middle East is an evil land. I think evil applies to humans only, defined by their own terms. Bad things are evil. Terrorists do bad things, and there are an overabundance of terrorists in the Middle East.

Why would he?

I don't know why a moron would ever listen to anything sensible.

[sschaula]

What do you think of the Iraqi military? There was a quick, vague blurb on CBS news last night that, from the point of view of the Iraqi citizens, the Iraqi military was "a hundred times worse" than the American military. I didn't know what to make of that.

Well first of all, how can you say "the Iraqi citizen's point of view"? There are many citizens. That's like saying the American people support George Bush. It's just untrue.

Also, I'd like to know in what way the Iraqi military is supposed to be "a hundred times worse". If this is true, then why? How?

I think it was Hitler that said something to the effect of, "The greater a lie, the easier it will be for the people to believe it."

It is possible that there were WMDs that were transported out, although the question of where they went and why they weren't used puzzles me.

Me as well.

Well, that's the central issue, I think. Is the world better off now? It looks like the Iraq invasion has been used pretty effectively as a recruiting tool for militant extremists. If so, then Iraq may have increased the chances of further future attacks against the US.

That's how it seems to me as well. Who knows how it'll turn out. I know that the US will be on guard for quite a while now, and hopefully the future presidents remember what happened and keep homeland security as good as, if not better, than it is now.

Also, what do you think the effect has been on, say Iran? They seem very eager to be able to protect themselves from any potential action from the US. Since the US (Bush) has declared a policy of pre-emptive action, I think that's pretty understandable.

They are just whining. If they wanted the ability to defend themselves, their government would have said nothing and they'd have secretely made nuclear weapons. They're trying to show that they're tough.

It's hard to say, at this point, how well that will work out. The new government is still in its infancy.

It is hard to say, but they've been given their freedom. Lets see what everyone there wants to do with it.

I agree, it is nice. But the US is pretty well insulated. There's not any big threat from Canada or Mexico. Iraq is in a different situation. Will it ever be that calm and peaceful in that part of the world? I think it would take a lot more than the change of one country's government.

I agree. You can only complete a puzzle a couple pieces at a time, though...unless of course you have allies who also believe in the image on the box.

[sschaula]

The cause of resisting western philosophies of life which destroy utterly
their own ways of living. The cause of not becoming like hedonistic Americans. The cause of not advancing the whole of womankind far more quickly than benefits the whole of society. The cause of avoiding mistakes and disasters that more advanced cultures have not avoided. The cause of not being similarly overthrown by the most complaining yet least wise among them.

Well now I know the cause of the murders.

Scott, dont get me wrong. Bush seems to be very good at this kind of thing.

You don't call me Scott. You can call me sschaula. My friends call me Scott. It seems like when you call me by my first name, you are assuming a position of....equality with me. I don't think you're equal, because at first you stood firm in your beliefs, and with my reply you've taken a defensive stance. Like a wuss, or someone who doesn't understand who they are and what their beliefs actually are...so you can call me sschaula if you choose to respond again. I don't know if I'll respond to your response, though.

Chances are his plan is the second best thing we could possibly do. I beleive it is. If a military solution is necessary then damn, he's doing great! Besides finding a wise, more peaceful solution to freedom and world peace there is probably no better solution than the one you are part of, and for that I must thank you.

Why are you sucking up now? If you were actually grateful you'd not have the beliefs you do. AHem...I mean you wouldn't have had the beliefs you did in your last post!

A military solution is necessary when a group attacks a couple major buildings, killing many people. So I suppose this was the first best plan.

I can.

Wait. Weren't you the one that I asked the questions of? Why didn't you answer? I think I asked you about what country you're from. Is it somewhere in the Mid East? If so, then I could understand this italicized statement of yours. Maybe. Or if you've been there......maybe.

Did you hear, Bush just stated troops will be there at least beyond his term in office.
No surprise to me.

Me either.

[MKFaizi]

I just watched Bush's press conference. Dude's starting to sweat some and, typically, blaming the media. It is the media's fault the war is FINALLY being perceived by USians in a less than positive light.

I mean, damn. Took three years. The press is finally asking the hard questions that they should have asked more than three years ago. Then, GW had a press cakewalk. I could not believe the pussies.

Motherfucker puts on a fly boy suit and claims the shit is done. Got away with murder -- constantly bragging about being a wartime president. Give me a break -- he is a quagmire president just like Lyndon Johnson was a quagmire president but, at least, Johnson didn't go around prancing and bragging about being a wartime president. Johnson had the sense to know that he was a quagmire president -- why he did not run for re-election.

Bush Baby has had a free ride for three years.

Now, he's complaining about it. Three years in a beauty contest and he's bitchin' cause they ain't lookin' at his best side now.

Some talk of impeachment. I actually think it could happen. Maybe. Only problem with that is that the entire administration needs to be impeached. We don't need two more years of Hotshot Cheney.

Well, it did look good to see the dude sweat. The boy looked pretty uptight today and that's a good thing. More than the usual monkey faces.

The pity of it is that Bush was not elected the first time. He was appointed by the Supreme Court. The second time around, he was elected because people with a specific religious agenda got out the vote. The abortion/morality issue is very strong in the US.

Right wing moralists vote. Preachers tell them to do it for Jesus. No more dick sucking in the White House, by God.

I recognize that you can go too far left, too. But, damn, a little left can go a long way.

I did enjoy seeing the boy sweat. Good for 'im.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

They've actually been given freedom, yet a lot of people in Iraq don't want it for some reason.

Uh, maybe, they don't want freedom because freedom is being forced on them. Shoved down their throats, like. Kind of a freedom occupation. Not a whole lot different from Saddam. If you oppose the US, then, you are a terrorist.

Let freedom ring.

I hate to say it but I will say it and I have said it before -- I think the US needs to give Iraq back to Saddam. He managed things better than we are doing. We could work out an agreement for the Kurds and the Shi'ites could move to Iran. Give Saddam the Sunni Triangle.

Then, we pull our troops out. With strong-arm tactics, Saddam would gain control over the so called insurgency.

Then, we deal with Iran. Saddam could be our ally in this endeavor.

Kind of like history repeating itself. Saddam is accustomed to such arrangements.

Been there, done that.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

That'd be the same as calling your boss "asshole" at work.

My boss is an asshole. Here is the latest of his demands. We are supposed to sell back our earned time off so we can accrue it again. We are being coerced into giving back our earned time so we can earn it again. The threat is that if we do not "sell" back our time, we will lose our time. I have decided that I will not sell my time. Then, I will lose it.

I have earned three weeks off a year plus five days sick pay. I am not going to give that up.

I am going to get a lawyer.

I have no qualms about calling my boss an asshole. He is an asshole.

Show some respect.

Why should I show respect for someone who is going to screw me over?

Secondly, I'm enlightened. I understand more things than regular people do, so yea I'm qualified, and I'm not being dogmatic.

Given the fact that you are enlightened and know ultimate truth, what are your reasons against being dogmatic?

What is a regular person? Define regular, please.

What are the "more things" that you understand beyond regular people? Rather than a list, perhaps, you could state one specific thing that you understand beyond the regular.

What are your qualifications and what entity qualifiies you?

Does qualification indicate some sort of certification? Can you scan, then, your certificate of enlightenment? I am interested in seeing it.

I also don't put my faith in anyone besides myself.

Then, how can you assert that you are qualified?

Faizi

[Lennyrizzo]

S, I'm at least as American as you are, and no my beliefs have not changed just your imagination, and no A violent solution was probably not the best reaction to 9/11.
I used your name cause I could spell it.

[Lennyrizzo]

There was a quick, vague blurb on CBS news last night that, from the point of view of the Iraqi citizens, the Iraqi military was "a hundred times worse" than the American military. I didn't know what to make of that.

Mostly illusion.
Everyone knows that no one behaves as well as an American when there's the possibility that a video camera is ON. Besides, American soilders have much more to lose than Iraqis if caught being naughty. Also, Iraqis know themselves well so they can't easily fool themselves, but Americans can more easily trick a foreigner into thinking they indeed are more humane than your average bloke is. Lastly, Americans have been programmed to believe they are more ethical (more everything!) than most people, so they try like hell to behave more ethical so as not to tarnish their own consciences, which would enevitably make them feel guilty as hell if they misbehaved, seeing how they should be angels. From their religious past.
But it's mostly because of the cameras.
The bravest Americans always manage to somehow get on film, it's amazing!
The honest ones too.
Brits as well.

[DHodges]

Well first of all, how can you say "the Iraqi citizen's point of view"? There are many citizens. That's like saying the American people support George Bush. It's just untrue.

Also, I'd like to know in what way the Iraqi military is supposed to be "a hundred times worse". If this is true, then why? How?

Well, like I said, it was a quick blurb from a reporter in Iraq, and I didn't know what to make of it. I took her to mean maybe worse in terms of brutality, or destructiveness.

If that doesn't ring any bells for you, then maybe she was just talking out her ass.

So, what is your impression of the Iraqi military and police? Will they ready to take over, in the reasonably near future? Are they getting good training?

[DHodges]

Does qualification indicate some sort of certification? Can you scan, then, your certificate of enlightenment? I am interested in seeing it.

As I understand it, you can only see the enlightenment certificate if you are enlightened. It's invisible to ordinary folks.

[Leyla Shen]

Scott,

Leyla: Is that the military before or after Saddam?

Scott: After. Beforehand it was Saddam's military.

Amazing. I assume it’s more or less the same lot of people (unless the new government fired the lot and replaced them), ie a whole bunch of people who were just as happy to take their orders from Saddam as anyone else. A whole bunch of people who were not willing to call him an asshole, and act on it. And on what basis? Or, was Saddam some sort of evil, omnipotent God?

There is a guy -- whose name escapes me at the moment -- who wrote a book called “Public Opinion.” Your views seem to align pretty much with his. He reckons that the average man is incapable of dealing with political issues, being so tied up in the activities involved with maintaining the safety and security of his personal life he doesn’t have time to think. Therefore, he has no right to question what his much more well-qualified government is doing. Therefore, it is necessary to manufacture his consent.

Ironic.

The real good is that we've taken measures against terrorist organizations attacking the US again, by occupying Iraq and Afghanistan...remember that's what spawned this whole war.

This kind of activity has been called, in the past, “head on a pike.” Yes, it can be very effective, in the short-term. But my consideration in politics is more for the long-term. If the governments of the West could demonstrate true foresight beyond more head-on-a-pike solutions, even I -- as a punk ass lefty -- would not be averse to a few head-on-a-pike measures here and there. In fact, I’d more than likely support them. I have put a few heads on pikes, myself.

One...don't call the President some pet name, as if you're any better. That'd be the same as calling your boss "asshole" at work. Show some respect.

My respect is something that has to be earned. I shall call G Dubbya whatever I see fit. I have been known to call asshole bosses assholes, too. The difference is, I am not an American, though somehow you obviously think there’s no difference.

Some even say that Bush planned the 9-11 attacks in order to go to war. Your kind just pulls this stuff out of nowhere. For that reason, I feel like after this post we shouldn't continue talking. I've said enough. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

If we just stick exactly to what the other is saying and ask direct questions when in doubt, we should be right. Nevertheless, should you hold a contrary view to that, you are free to pull out of this conversation -- as am I -- at any time.

Secondly, I'm enlightened. I understand more things than regular people do, so yea I'm qualified, and I'm not being dogmatic.

I don’t think enlightenment necessarily makes one a good politician -- empiricism being what it is, that is. But, from this, am I to assume that -- as an enlightened person -- your objective here has been to promote something good even at the expense of encouraging rational thought with demands overflowing with wisdom; such as this, for example:

One...don't call the President some pet name, as if you're any better.

I don't know why a moron would ever listen to anything sensible.

Well, that one‘s easy. Even I can work it out: it‘s because a moron is a moron. But, one who knows why a moron is a moron, also knows why they do not listen; there's no question on the superficial level of categorisation.

[MKFaizi]

As I understand it, you can only see the enlightenment certificate if you are enlightened. It's invisible to ordinary folks.

Oh, yeah. I forgot. Got to put the beer goggles on.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

That's like saying the American people support George Bush. It's just untrue.

Well, the American people elected him. That's kind of supportive. Can't say that I'm proud of it but it's true.

I think it's stunning that he was elected only a little more than a year ago and now -- NOW -- people are waking up to the fact that they were duped. I mean, why would you elect a guy president and almost immediately start to doubt him in a profound way when he is the same monkey squinter that he has been from day one. Bush Baby has not changed one little bit.

The flip flop thing is what amazes me. Where have all the Bushies gone?

Faizi

[Lennyrizzo]

I wouldnt put too much weight on those stats, they're misleading, deliberately.
This is about the time in American history when the people know that the president doesnt mind being the brunt of jokes and scoring unfavorable marks. The president understands this and would not have it any other way. It's part of his job as protector.
For the people are not as safe and protected as the president, and no one here would want the people punished for the presidents actions and mistakes, would we.
If nothing else it makes the people feel better believing how they, with God's grace, may be forgiven for being duped once again.
The quietness is just in case things take a surprising turn.

[MKFaizi]

Bullshit.

Quiet? What quiet? Things are pretty loud.

The president does not understand jack. Does not mind being the brunt of jokes? What jokes? Who cares about jokes? The war in Iraq is not a joke. No one is joking here.

I don't think any people can be forgiven for being duped. I don't think the American people are forgiven by Europe or Asia or Africa or South America and on and on.

The war in Iraq was wrong -- militarily and politically wrong -- from its infancy.

My own mother and father knew that. They are old and rather feeble. I mean, common sense has certain dictates. My father is a WWII vet and Korean Conflict vet.

It is ridiculous to think that a lack of sense can be forgiven.

Feel better with God's grace, my ass.

The US has a big problem. That problem has to be fixed.

Feeling better ain't gonna cut it.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

I wouldnt put too much weight on those stats,

The stats are pretty weighty in this particular case. Not even Richard Nixon could pull himself up from such disillusionment.

And, up to Watergate, he was a master.

Trickie Dickie, we hardly knew ye.

Where are you now that we finally need you, O Mighty Ship of State?

Faizi

[Lennyrizzo]

The war in Iraq was wrong -- militarily and politically wrong -- from its infancy.

Not necessarily. we can not rule out the possibility that this war--as ugly as it is--will turn out pivitol to a major success against the global war on terror. Non-violent solutions in these areas of human strife have a poor track record. If Bush has his way a huge blow will be and has been delivered to Americas enemies, and from an American perspective that will produce a high score. Though things will never be the same as before, though security will be a pain and a chore, Americans may be safer for the next many years than ever before. Just look how secure the country has been these last 3 nerve-racking years. If this can be managed until such time as the hard feelings pass we may be alright for some time.
Of course, this saids nothing about the ethical or not nature of the mission.
We will probably need to sock them hard for a few more years for this approach to work, so supporters are already praying Dean et al gets a stroke before 2008.

My own mother and father knew that. They are old and rather feeble. I mean, common sense has certain dictates. My father is a WWII vet and Korean Conflict vet.

You could say this war was a mistake only if the elected leadership was different than it is. But with these guys in office there was never any chance for a peaceful solution. So dont blame them, blame the people, which the terrorists already know to do.
If the people were more ethical and wiser, better leaders would be attracted to service. Decent people such as some of us are in the minority, so we ought not expect miracles from fools.

It is ridiculous to think that a lack of sense can be forgiven.

Its ridiculous to think anything shouldnt be forgiven ("7 x 70").

[DHodges]

The flip flop thing is what amazes me. Where have all the Bushies gone?

What amazes me is that he STILL has a third of the population behind him. What does it take to shake those people? I mean, what else could he possibly screw up?

Ah, I'm sure he'll find something. He'll surprise us.

[DHodges]

It is possible that there were WMDs that were transported out, although the question of where they went and why they weren't used puzzles me.

Me as well.

There was a guy on the Daily Show last night who was a general under Saddam, and wrote a book about it. The book is called Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied And Survived Saddam Hussein.

He claims that there were WMD, and they were transported out of Iraq to Syria (by land and by air) just before the invasion.

[sschaula]

So, what is your impression of the Iraqi military and police? Will they ready to take over, in the reasonably near future? Are they getting good training?

I haven't seen them. I only hear briefings that they're ready and able. They do half, if not more of the work over there. Last I heard, a month or two ago, they were 80% up.

A lot of them were trained by Special Forces soldiers, who are smart and courageous. I have no doubts about their training.

By the way, I also watched the general on the Daily Show. It was kind of interesting...it'd probably be interesting to read his book. I don't just believe the stories people tell, no matter who they are. If this general is saying this, there could be a reason, and it could just be lies...although his story is a lot like what I guessed about the WMDs.

And about enlightenment: a person who claims enlightenment is either enlightened, or deluded. The people who think someone is enlightened are either wrong or right. The people who think someone is not enlightened are either wrong or right.

There is the truth, then there is what you think. If someone is enlightened it doesn't matter if people don't think that person is. The truth remains.

[DHodges]

By the way, I also watched the general on the Daily Show. It was kind of interesting...it'd probably be interesting to read his book. I don't just believe the stories people tell, no matter who they are. If this general is saying this, there could be a reason, and it could just be lies...although his story is a lot like what I guessed about the WMDs.

I agree. There's no telling exactly what his motivation is. His story about how incredibly honest a guy he is, seemed kind of shady. It could be true, but I wouldn't believe it just based on his word.

My thought is that, if the story is true, then the US government probably already knew about it. Syria is on their list, but they need to wrap up some other things before they have the resources to deal with it. They've got too much going on right now. So maybe that stuff will "come out" later on, at a more convenient time.

And about enlightenment: a person who claims enlightenment is either enlightened, or deluded. The people who think someone is enlightened are either wrong or right. The people who think someone is not enlightened are either wrong or right.

Yeah... but I'm starting to think that if you are enlightened, the last thing you'd want is for other people to know about it (except to help people who are seriously seeking after it).

[sschaula]

Why? Because it seems insane, boring, stupid and pointless? I just say it because it's true. It's not some big deal. I'm just saying I understand the workings of reality.

[MKFaizi]

What amazes me is that he STILL has a third of the population behind him. What does it take to shake those people? I mean, what else could he possibly screw up?

Remember Watergate? I can't recall the stats but in Nixon's last throes of his presidency -- when the writing was on the wall in big capital letters -- many Americans still believed in his innpcence.

The day before he resigned, my ex-father in law wrote him a letter of undying support. I think much of the remaining Bush support comes from the religious base that elected him the second time he ran for president. Christian right wingers -- the anti-aborton crowd that is pretty big in the US.

The Dick inherited the Vietnam war. He did not start it. Plus, in other areas of foreign policy, he made some headway -- the China connection. In retrospect, Watergate was not worse than Iran/Contra.

In retrospect, it definitely does not seem worse than the Bush-Hawg years. I never liked Ronald Reagan but, at least, he screwed over the Christians. I cannot honestly think of one single thing good about the Bush Baby years. Nothing. Zip. He claims to be fighting the war on terror but he leaves the Mexican border porous.

My Pakistani husband came to the US illegally through Mexico. I doubt that it is now as easy as it was then but it is still do-able. Very do-able. He was not a murderer. The point is that anyone could do it, if Faizi did it.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

I just watched the interview from the Daily Show with Georges Sada -- the Iraqi general.

I really wonder about that. The guy is so innocuous. Cutest little Iraqi ex-general you could possibly imagine. Damn likeable. Cute as an Iraqi Santa Claus.

He claims that he always told Saddam the truth. The truth about what?

I mean, the guy is just so affable and polite. No way I can think of the man telling Saddam any truth more challenging than, maybe, his wardrobe was not well coordinated. Big maybe.

I don't think the man is lying exactly. I do think he may be living in Fantasy Land. I think he may be so happy about getting rid of Saddam and getting his new best friends that he might say what his new best friends want to hear. WMDs would justify the American war in Iraq. He has an interest in that because he is now some kind of advisor to the new Iraqi government. He needs the US there -- for protection.

Sounds good that he can say WMDs were whisked off to Syria. And how does he know this? Some guys told him about it.

This guy is very cute and affable. Do I believe that he ever told Saddam Hussein any sort of truth?

I don't. I don't believe him at all.

I would kind of like to see him interviewed by Mike Wallace. But he's such a sweet guy that I would hate to see him subjected to that. His feelings would get hurt.

I doubt that I will read it but I reckon his book is a joke.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

And another thing --

One thing that really gripes is when Bush Baby was sweating it out the other day, he said that it will be up to another American president to find a way out of Iraq.

Talk about passing the buck. Damn. And this from a swaggering Viagra fed guy in a fly boy suit in front of a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner.

What mission, exactly?

By nature, politicians are delusional and ego-infested. Nature of the beast and why I find politicians as mildly interesting as serial killers.

But even Ted Bundy had some minute redeeming qualities. He consulted with detectives to help pinpoint the motives of the Green River murderer.

I would really like to see something redeeming about George W. But the only redemption I can see for him is for the next president to be even worse.

God help us.

Things really stink when Nixon starts to look good.

I would like to see Mark Warner elected. He is a Democrat moderate with an excellent record as governor of Virginia.

Faizi