The Value Of Lofty Thought...

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:31 pm

There are many here who think that lofty thought is valuable. ok. But in relation to what? I mean from where is its value derived? Take nietzsche, for example, in a recent biography certain facts were revealed about his habits, his diseases,(which included syphilis) his life as a recluse and so on....physiologically he was thin, aneamic, and generally of unkempt appearance...and before his 50th. birthday he was committed to an insane asylum...yet this jaded vessel of a man produced a lot of lofty thoughts...thoughts that have been used and interpreted by everyone from Q to adolf hitler.I mean, if he was a man who practiced what he preached,through whom lofty thoughts found personification, then, I imagine they would have some value - real value. But they were just thoughts, wishful thinking, idealism, poetry at best...

how seriously should we take philosophers? many of whom come from priviliged backgrounds, who have never worked a day in their lives, most of which they have spent with their nose in books learning lofty thoughts then attempting to write their own....what are they trying to say to the rest of us? what do they want us to do? according to Q, their goal is to teach us about lofty thoughts so we too can then appreciate 'the view'....but to what end? so we can all go off and sit on a mountain top? or ridicule people ( which often happens here) because they lack the culture of a university trained mind? here again, we have a clear demarcation this time between lofty thoughts and a base, mean, cruel intelligence...

shouldn't the value of our thoughts resonate in harmony with our actions? then, at least, they would be of value, in relation to something, not just vanity and ego: lofty thoughts should HUMBLY serve humanity...otherwise, with god dead and burried, what other possible value could they have?

As for nietzsche, he didn't teach me much when it came to lofty thoughts. from him I learnt the meaning of tragedy.

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:50 pm

It's all about suffering and the will to escape it permanently. If you don't suffer much you probably won't give a shit, but suffering is caused by ignorance of the nature of reality: the idea that there is a self that needs to be preserved. The idea of a self has no logical basis. It comes from a superficial interpretation of our perceptions. It's pure superstition, and it creates a lot more superstitions, like desire, anger, boredom, etc. All of these weigh down our consciousness in a sense, and this makes us psychologically divorced from reality, which is fundamentally complete.

Philosophy is really psychology and the means to sanity. The people of the world are pretty insane, don't you think? Ignorance is the cause. Ignorance of the nature of reality, ignorance of cause and effect, ignorance of the ego, ignorance of the sexes, ignorance of philosophy, etc.

Kevin Solway · Post by **Kevin Solway** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:52 pm

zarathustra wrote:There are many here who think that lofty thought is valuable. ok. But in relation to what? I mean from where is its value derived?

All value is relative to the individual. As David says, a whim of Nature.

Take nietzsche, for example, in a recent biography certain facts were revealed about his habits, his diseases,(which included syphilis)

Do you think that a person having syphilis makes them less of a valuable person?

his life as a recluse and so on.

A recluse who wrote a lot of best-selling books. Do you think being such a recluse makes a person less valuable?

...physiologically he was thin, aneamic, and generally of unkempt appearance.

Does this make him less of a valuable person in your mind? Why?

..and before his 50th. birthday he was committed to an insane asylum.

Does this make him less of a valuable person in your mind? Why? His mental illness might have been caused by some kind of physical disease.

I mean, if he was a man who practiced what he preached, through whom lofty thoughts found personification, then, I imagine they would have some value - real value. But they were just thoughts, wishful thinking, idealism, poetry at best...

They were thoughts communicated to others. And those thoughts changed the life of others, and possibly changed history in a significant way.

how seriously should we take philosophers? many of whom come from priviliged backgrounds, who have never worked a day in their lives, most of which they have spent with their nose in books learning lofty thoughts then attempting to write their own....what are they trying to say to the rest of us?

Sometimes they try to communicate absolute truths that are significant to all conscious life in the universe.

what do they want us to do? according to Q, their goal is to teach us about lofty thoughts so we too can then appreciate 'the view'....but to what end?

Such a person chooses to think true thoughts rather than false ones, for whatever reason. And since they see other people as an extension of themselves they seek for other people too, to think true thoughts rather than false ones.

we have a clear demarcation this time between lofty thoughts and a base, mean, cruel intelligence...

The distinction is often not so clear. The truth often sounds harsh. If a person is lost they sometimes need to have this explained to them, otherwise they might end up in an even worse condition.

shouldn't the value of our thoughts resonate in harmony with our actions? then, at least, they would be of value, in relation to something, not just vanity and ego: lofty thoughts should HUMBLY serve humanity...otherwise, with god dead and burried, what other possible value could they have?

What do you mean by "serve humanity"? Are you talking about the physical survival of the species, or the survival of people's happiness, or the survival of the consciousness of truth?

And if something serves humanity, does it really matter that it is done "humbly" (which usually means "deceitfully").

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:39 am

no, what I meant to write was 'with humility...'

on another related topic...

some years ago, an uncle of mine stayed with a hindu scholar and his family somewhere in Clacutta. he told me that one morning he went with them to the temple with offerings of food...on the way they came across a mother and her obviously starving child, when my uncle passed by, the mother grabbed him by his trouser leg and begged him to give her and her baby some food...my uncle's first impulse was to give her some of the fruit and milk he was carrying. When he attempted to do so, the hindu scholar, grabbed his arm and said: 'no, no, no, what you are doing is very bad...the woman and child must deal with their karma...' my uncle felt very bad about the whole thing, but nevertheless continued on to the temple, where the food was then placed at the feet of a stone statue and the milk fed to a fat cow...later when they went back to my uncle's friend's place, my uncle told him that he felt distressed by the plight of the women...his friend, with great care and concern, then took down from his shelf a number of the most sacred hindu text, and preceeded to explain logically to my uncle, whilst stopping to quote the lofty thoughts of the great hindu sages and enlightened masters, in an effort to rationalize what my uncle had done...the intensity and honesty of his friend's explanations , he said, moved him to tears....soon after returning to Auistralia, my uncle became an atheist and worked closely with the indian rationalist society...

Kevin Solway · Post by **Kevin Solway** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:59 am

zarathustra wrote:...my uncle's first impulse was to give her some of the fruit and milk he was carrying. When he attempted to do so, the hindu scholar, grabbed his arm and said: 'no, no, no, what you are doing is very bad...the woman and child must deal with their karma...

Your uncle should have ignored his emotional feelings and thought for himself.

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:02 am

Cause and effect.....does not explain but describes a perfect image of how things 'become.' but what lies behind and within the image? not even Q knows that...all he sees is a row of causes stretching into infinity: he says 'this must first happen if that is to follow' but he doesn't understand why. has Q considered the chemical changes in nature we call 'quality' which appears as some sort of miracle, beyond explanation e.g. motion...

consider this: from the start, we operate with things that do not exist! pure fantasy! lines, planes, bodies, atoms, divisable time and space. how can these things ever be explained when we first make everything into an image?

in nature, the development of cause and effect probably never occurs. in reality there is a continuum of which we isolate a couple of peices, as we cannot help but perceive movement as isolated points (...........................) therefore we don't see at all, but infer it.

in every second of every minute of every day there is an infinite host of occurances which elude us...any dude who saw cause and effect as a continuum, and not as Q does, as division and isolation would reject the concept of cause and effect and deny all conditionality.......

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:14 am

matt, in order to aquaint one's self with lofty thoughts, first requires that one is housed, properly fed and gainfully employed. for most of the peoples of the world these are not available to them, primarily because of an unequal distribution of wealth...they can't afford to sit on a chair and think lofty thoughts, dude -they don't even have a fucking chair!

mopaz · Post by **mopaz** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:56 am

zara - what did the hindu tell him?

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:33 am

Zarathustra wrote:

in every second of every minute of every day there is an infinite host of occurances which elude us...any dude who saw cause and effect as a continuum, and not as Q does, as division and isolation would reject the concept of cause and effect and deny all conditionality.......

Why don't you read Q's book before you criticize him? He's not an easy person to understand. You're mistaking him for a simpleton, but he's way out there beyond the horizon, trust me.

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:37 am

Zarathustra wrote:

matt, in order to aquaint one's self with lofty thoughts, first requires that one is housed, properly fed and gainfully employed. for most of the peoples of the world these are not available to them, primarily because of an unequal distribution of wealth...they can't afford to sit on a chair and think lofty thoughts, dude -they don't even have a fucking chair!

You don't need a fucking chair, you just need some determination and a little honesty.

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:01 am

Zarathustra,

You are showing that your hatred of truth, or indeed of anything higher than poetry, is immense. You're only 19 and you have this hatred. That's quite disturbing.

Most people don't acquire this hatred until they're at least 30, when they have built up a lot of emotional attachments in their lives which need protecting. But no, you've started early. You're like a child prodigy of truth-hate.

I wonder how much of it is coloured by your loathing of the middle-class. You've brought this point up a few times. It seems you are engaging not so much in a philosophic discussion, but in a class war of some kind. Are you at war with your parents or something? Are they middle-class and rejecting of you? I just get the feeling that there is a lot of emotional hatred going on here that has little to do with philosophical issues.

matt, in order to aquaint one's self with lofty thoughts, first requires that one is housed, properly fed and gainfully employed. for most of the peoples of the world these are not available to them, primarily because of an unequal distribution of wealth...they can't afford to sit on a chair and think lofty thoughts, dude -they don't even have a fucking chair!

We can just as easily say that same thing for science. One cannot do modern research without a nice income, a well-furnished lab, planes that can travel to conferences around the world, and so on. Do you advocate that we abandon science as well? What about space travel?

Cause and effect.....does not explain but describes a perfect image of how things 'become.' but what lies behind and within the image? not even Q knows that...all he sees is a row of causes stretching into infinity: he says 'this must first happen if that is to follow' but he doesn't understand why.

More accurately, you don't understand why. Please leave me out of it.

If you are having to ask why causes produce one thing and not another, then you are not really understanding what causality is.

Casue and effect is not simply a row of causes stretching back into infinity. It is an infinitely complex web of causal interactions that is impossible, from a scientific point of view, to follow. Each unique thing has its own unique causes, which are countless in number.

consider this: from the start, we operate with things that do not exist! pure fantasy! lines, planes, bodies, atoms, divisable time and space. how can these things ever be explained when we first make everything into an image?

The affirmation of causality as the root principle of Nature doesn't requires us to assume the existence of lines, planes, bodies, atoms, divisible space and time, etc.

Indeed, it doesn't require us to assume the existence of anything at all.

So your point - if indeed you do have a point - is irrelevant here.

in nature, the development of cause and effect probably never occurs. in reality there is a continuum of which we isolate a couple of peices, as we cannot help but perceive movement as isolated points (...........................) therefore we don't see at all, but infer it.

The continuum only exists by virtue of the fact that all things are causally connected to each other. If these causal connections didn't exist, then Nature would be comprised of discrete entities with no powers to influence each other at all. There would be no continuum.

in every second of every minute of every day there is an infinite host of occurances which elude us...any dude who saw cause and effect as a continuum, and not as Q does, as division and isolation would reject the concept of cause and effect and deny all conditionality.......

In a sense, cause and effect doesn't really exist at all, because there are ultimately no things in Nature. There is only a continuum. From this perspective, yes, there is no conditionality. However, as soon as we start to imagine that things really exist, causality automatically comes into being as a reality.

Causality is like a conceptual glue which joins together what has been artificially severed in the first place. It's a remedy for a particular philosophic sickness.

Oh, and it has nothing to do with what social class you belong to.

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zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:23 am

can you imagine it? a begger on the streets of calcutta, the unemployed, exploited and undernourished in so many different countries, saying to each other: 'dudes, we don't need food, shelter - we need determination...ok where's that book Q wrote...? perhaps the great philosophers here should apply their cause and effect to the plight of the poor, disadvantaged and exploited of this world. lets start with that baby in calcutta or what about that three year old arab girl in a bagdad hospital with the side of her face missing, along with two arms and a leg....perhaps Q could give a copy of his book to her mother and matt give her a lecture on self-determination: 'come on lady, get up off your inferior ass! show a little determination, read the book, understand how ignornant you have been all these years...

Q and others: as for cause and effect: you have called me names, a hater of truth, of the bourgeois and so on...but i see little or no argument. telling me I'm this and that, or to read a fucking book and 'find out' or to take a coward's way out ( 'Q: you don't understand why, so please leave me out of it...')
are hardly the responses you'd expect from philosophers, let alone geniuses... your conclusions about me hating the middleclass and the 'truth' are so fucking banal that they
don't even warrent a response.

even if cause and effect is a 'complex web', so what, it makes no difference to my argument...........

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:29 am

Q: accept...read...believe...and truth will be revealed...

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:19 pm

zarathustra wrote:

can you imagine it? a begger on the streets of calcutta, the unemployed, exploited and undernourished in so many different countries, saying to each other: 'dudes, we don't need food, shelter - we need determination...ok where's that book Q wrote...? perhaps the great philosophers here should apply their cause and effect to the plight of the poor, disadvantaged and exploited of this world. lets start with that baby in calcutta or what about that three year old arab girl in a bagdad hospital with the side of her face missing, along with two arms and a leg....perhaps Q could give a copy of his book to her mother and matt give her a lecture on self-determination: 'come on lady, get up off your inferior ass! show a little determination, read the book, understand how ignornant you have been all these years...

Funnily enough, the two are connected. The main causes of the starving in Calcutta, and human misery in general, are greed, short-sightedness, emotionalism, irrational thinking, false beliefs, deluded values, and so on. It is precisely these things that philosophy and wisdom address.

The only way to truly rid the world of human misery in the long-term is by creating a saner environment filled with saner people. And the only way this can be done is by encouraging people to become truthful and pure. Which is where I come in.

Or alternatively, you could write nifty little poems wailing about the situation. I'm sure that will help.

Q and others: as for cause and effect: you have called me names, a hater of truth, of the bourgeois and so on...but i see little or no argument. telling me I'm this and that, or to read a fucking book and 'find out' or to take a coward's way out ( 'Q: you don't understand why, so please leave me out of it...')
are hardly the responses you'd expect from philosophers, let alone geniuses...

You make it plain that you're just not interested in understanding anything, so I'm hardly motivated to discuss anything too deeply with you. You end up ignoring most of my reasonings anyway. I don't even know why you're here.

your conclusions about me hating the middleclass and the 'truth' are so fucking banal that they don't even warrent a response.

You've decided, based on very little evidence at all, that truth cannot be known to the mind. It's something that you desperately want to believe in, which indicates a pathological hatred of truth.

Regarding the middle class, a few days ago, you wrote:

oh yeah, buy the way, I absolutely detest your middleclass holyer-than-thou, snotty-nosed elitism, which does not, as you so smuggly delude yourself, place you on a petestal above the ordinary rungs of humanity, but somewhere under a pile of dog shit.

There is definitely a lot of deep-seated anger inside you. At least 95% of your posts are filled to the brim with hatred and bile. And I really don't think it has anything to do with this forum.

even if cause and effect is a 'complex web', so what, it makes no difference to my argument...........

What argument? Are you making an argument?

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Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:58 pm

David Quinn wrote:

The only way to truly rid the world of human misery in the long-term is by creating a saner environment filled with saner people. And the only way this can be done is by encouraging people to become truthful and pure. Which is where I come in.

Well I would hope you're not the only one!

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:58 pm

yeah, I am: post number 134...you seem to have overlooked it,
in your effort to put the cart before the horse.

a worthwhile quote from a silly old fart:

'...so long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another...' nietzsche

...which begs the question: just whose path was nietzsche on?

dude, dude, dude, we have arranged for ourselves a world in which we are able to live - with the postulation of bodies, lines , surfaces, causes and effects, motion and rest, form and content (fictitous entities): without these articles of FAITH nobody these days could endure to live. but you'd be a complete fruitcake if you believed they are something proved and demonstrated....come on Q, lets get lofty without a crutch...IT IS Q, IT IS...before, during and after Q....IT IS...as for me I think IT IS wonderful! beautiful! inspirational! ironic! raw meat for poetry to cook....the sweet mystery of it all.....personally, in terms of loftyness, I would rate 'wonder' higher than faith or belief, and higher than wonder -COMEDY....with all your postulating Q and all your seriousness, really, I can't hate you...I think you're tragically funny...and in the life you lead outside of cyberspace, I'd even bet you'd be a nice person....I like you now...you seem to believe passionately in your philosophy, and that is to be admired in any man! oh yeah, don't be too hard on poetry...after all, you have it to thank for metaphor - and without metaphor, where would any of us be? would we b at all? hang on - I'm getting a message from the great beyond. It's fucking nietzsche.......what on, what's that?....what? Ok I'll tell him: nitetzsche said to tell you: 'of ourselves we are not knowers...'

you've already called me a 'child prod '( thanks for that, but you think too highly of me )...I'm just a naughty little boy...

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:00 pm

Q: sounds like nirvana...

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:06 pm

you're such a suck hole matt...try finding your own path...

Q: 'truthful and pure'...does that mean no more drugs, booze,
poetry, rap, rock n' roll and women....? sounds like the 'glass bead game' to me...fuck that!

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:15 pm

Ah, that didn't come out right! Fucking kiss my ass anyway, dude.

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:17 pm

if you want to engage seriously with me Q - engage...

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:20 pm

nice to meet you at last matt!...get over it, we all have to begin somewhere...

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:29 pm

I'm just joking around with you.

get over it, we all have to begin somewhere...

Yeah, we sure do.

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:41 pm

if you want to get into Q heaven, you'll need to overcome all those basic low life emotions.....purity matt, purity...remember hitler? stalin? mussolini? what the fuck are we talking about here. time to give you a little lesson in purity, which comes from the latin 'purus' which means to clean or purge by whatever process...'putat' 'putare' by pruning ( cp.propaganda )........

Jamesh · Post by **Jamesh** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:43 pm

The relationship between genius (or delusions of such granduer) and syphilis is quite interesting.

I actually think I might have syphilis and not know it. Must get myself checked out. I lot of the effects seem to be similar to maladies that I have had. I had anal sex with some chick about 20 years ago and have been physically fucked even since.

"During the secondary phase of syphilis, after the disease seems to have disappeared, the victim complains of rashes and all sorts of vague maladies, none of which seems associated with the primary stage infection." - this would decribe my health history perfectly.

http://www.culturewars.com/2003/Pox.html

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/mind/s933986.htm

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:07 pm

jamesh...to be afflicted is to be human....despite 'propaganda' to the contrary. I don't know about syphillis having a particular affinity for genius...If you're a male and a genius, as far as anal sex goes, what you've just demonstrated, is that common sense has little to do with being a genius: this concerns me...you should have wore a condom. But then I suppose it all depends on weather you are the giver or the reciever...either way the responsibility rests with you, lofty thoughts or no lofty thoughts...

GENIUS FORUMS

The Value Of Lofty Thought...

The Value Of Lofty Thought...

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Re: The Value Of Lofty Thought...