Quantum
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Re: Quantum
Yes, it's one of the worst, most mindless things I've seen in a long time.sevens wrote:Hey,
Anyone seen 'What The *Bleep* Do We Know?'
The script often contradicts itself from one sentence to the next.
For example, one moment they are saying "Quantum physics is all about possibilities", and the very next moment they have someone saying that certain things really can be at several different places at the same time.
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Re: Bleaps
If a person can be at two places at the same time, then they should be able to demonstrate it. For example, they could be here talking to me now, and be where you are, talking to you, at the same time.sevens wrote:Kevin,
Do you believe the reports of yogis, shamans, buddhas and sorcerers being able to develop bi-location siddhis?
I don't beleive this has ever been demonstrated.
There is a sense in which an enlightened person is everywhere at the same time, since they identify with the whole. But that doesn't mean they can know anything that is happening anywhere in the Universe.
At least, I don't believe that has so far been demonstrated.
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SPACETIME
Lived in another time? What's living in another time to an individual that can be in two places at once?
- David Quinn
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Multiple selves
And why stop at being in two places at the same time. If you can do that, you should be able to spawn an infinite number of selves all over the Universe, simultaneously.DavidQuinn000 wrote:There is also the question of why a sage would want to bifuricate into two positions in the first place. Does he want to join the circus or something?
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I'd like to see that!
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ZIP
Well, sevens, I have always seen "objective reality" as illusion. Hence my insistence that people who bandy the terms illusion and delusion about, define them. You know, noone ever has, as I recall it.
It's no small ask.
It's no small ask.
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Re: Quantum
Hey now, I thought it was good! It was a lot better than Dancing With Wolves!ksolway wrote:Yes, it's one of the worst, most mindless things I've seen in a long time.sevens wrote:Hey,
Anyone seen 'What The *Bleep* Do We Know?'
I don't get it, how is that a contradiction? And even if it is, what difference does it make? The way I see it, the movie about people exploring what is going on with science and stuff. I didn't see it as being a dogmatic movie.The script often contradicts itself from one sentence to the next.
For example, one moment they are saying "Quantum physics is all about possibilities", and the very next moment they have someone saying that certain things really can be at several different places at the same time.
I have never seen it. My daughter has a cat named "Bleep."
I make many attempts to be in several places at once. Nature of my job. I have come close once or twice but not quite achieved it. I have thought that I did encounter myself going in a door while, at the same time, coming out.
Close but no cigar.
Faizi
I make many attempts to be in several places at once. Nature of my job. I have come close once or twice but not quite achieved it. I have thought that I did encounter myself going in a door while, at the same time, coming out.
Close but no cigar.
Faizi
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Re: Quantum
Saying that quantum particles really are in different places at the same time is a long way from talking about "possibilities".Matt Gregory wrote:I don't get it, how is that a contradiction?ksolway wrote:The script often contradicts itself from one sentence to the next.
For example, one moment they are saying "Quantum physics is all about possibilities", and the very next moment they have someone saying that certain things really can be at several different places at the same time.
The people who were presenting their views in this movie were not quantum physicists, but merely people (namely, "new age" followers) who are presenting their fanciful views about what quantum physics means. These views have little to do with the truth.
I wouldn't call it dogmatic, rather, it was an attempt to bamboozle people by presenting them with countless mystifying and contradictory things, in the hopes of attracting followers to their religion (ie, the new age religion).And even if it is, what difference does it make? The way I see it, the movie about people exploring what is going on with science and stuff. I didn't see it as being a dogmatic movie.
It's like a Christian saying, "Look, Jesus really did walk on water, since the Bible says so, and he also raised people from the dead, which proves he was God, . . . and it must be right, blah . . . blah . . . ."
I think such a movie could be useful if it was approached intelligently and it had people who could offer intelligent comments on the subject material.
Last edited by Kevin Solway on Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
I wasn't able to get through watching "What the bleep" either due to the same reasons.
The commentators constantly said things that were either fairly average (i.e obvious or trite/mediocre) or outright inane and meaningless, like knocking a hollow piece of wood. This 'knocking of the wood' was their truth, and they wanted everyone to know about it. Who gives a toss?
They could take heart from George Eliot: "Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact."
The commentators constantly said things that were either fairly average (i.e obvious or trite/mediocre) or outright inane and meaningless, like knocking a hollow piece of wood. This 'knocking of the wood' was their truth, and they wanted everyone to know about it. Who gives a toss?
They could take heart from George Eliot: "Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact."
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Re: Quantum
Oh, you mean it's a long way from talking about particles being in different possible places at the same time. Gotcha. They probably wanted to spice it up a little bit because any object that we don't know the exact location of is in multiple different possible places, but when we find it, then we actually see that it's in the place that it is.ksolway wrote:Saying that quantum particles really are in different places at the same time is a long way from talking about "possibilities".
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Uncertainty principle
I've just read up about Bose-Einstein condensation, but it doesn't seem to prove that the uncertainties of the uncertainty principle aren't inherent limitations of perception.Dave Toast wrote:The Uncertainty principle is for 'real'. It describes a physical actuality, not a limitation of perception.
For example, were this not the case, Bose-Einstein condensation would be impossible.
Can you explain further?
In the Bose-Einstein condensation experiments they removed all the energy from some atoms, which then coalesced into a single fuzzy blob.
What meaning are you interpreting from that?
As I understand it, the uncertainty principle is brought about by the fact that our very observing of things influences our measurements, which limits the usefulness of those measurements.
Bose-Einstein
It seems that the meaning behind the condensing of energy deficient atoms lies in the very act of perception itself. Without the energy production model of concentration, the external world lacks coherence - resulting in a near 'fuzzy blob.' Concentration is the primary energy source for all other faculties of the mind; as it provides distinction, separation, and catagorization.
The energy frequency that permeates our universe, giving it form and substance, must be the same as our own mind.
As within, as without.
(The master vibration, would be the synthesis of all of the other frequencies in our universe -- a truly cosmic symphony. If scientists could map the different vibrations, then the true essence of our universe could be tuned into.)
The energy frequency that permeates our universe, giving it form and substance, must be the same as our own mind.
As within, as without.
(The master vibration, would be the synthesis of all of the other frequencies in our universe -- a truly cosmic symphony. If scientists could map the different vibrations, then the true essence of our universe could be tuned into.)
Last edited by sevens on Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Like you say, virtually all the energy is removed from a bunch of squashed together atoms by cooling them to almost absolute zero. Because we can now know the energy state (and therefore the momentum) of all these atoms very precisely, we can no longer know their position (the conjugate variable of momentum) very precisely at all.ksolway wrote:I've just read up about Bose-Einstein condensation, but it doesn't seem to prove that the uncertainties of the uncertainty principle aren't inherent limitations of perception.Dave Toast wrote:The Uncertainty principle is for 'real'. It describes a physical actuality, not a limitation of perception.
For example, were this not the case, Bose-Einstein condensation would be impossible.
Can you explain further?
In the Bose-Einstein condensation experiments they removed all the energy from some atoms, which then coalesced into a single fuzzy blob.
What meaning are you interpreting from that?
If it were the case that this was just a limitation of our perception, then we'd expect that the atoms' positions are actually definite but we just can't percieve them definitively, and that therefore, the atoms would carry on acting as though their position were definite. But that's not the case
In Bose-Einstein condensation, the atoms coalesce into a fuzzy blob and transition to a new distinct phase of matter because, in being cooled, the region in which each atom can exist changes from a sphere no wider than a few hundred nanometres to one of micrometres in diameter (one thousand times larger). In such a space, according to Copenhagen, thousands of atoms can overlap and thereby collapse into the same quantum state, producing a 'real' condensate. And that is what really happens.
Well that is true in the case of some measurements and this led most to think along the same lines at first, even Heisenberg. But this phenomenon actually has nothing to do with Uncertainty. There are plenty of measurements that can be made upon one conjugate variable without directly effecting the other, like spin in an entangled state, for instance.As I understand it, the uncertainty principle is brought about by the fact that our very observing of things influences our measurements, which limits the usefulness of those measurements.
BEC
I'm missing something - why that isn't prevented by the Pauli Exclusion Principle?Dave Toast wrote: In such a space, according to Copenhagen, thousands of atoms can overlap and thereby collapse into the same quantum state, producing a 'real' condensate. And that is what really happens.
Energy
If you're able to condense thousands of atoms into the same quantum state, wouldn't you then be able to 'recharge' these same 'cluster' atoms into a stable form of renewable energy?
By using the same method, wouldn't you be able to provide an input/output interface for a quantum computer?
By using the same method, wouldn't you be able to provide an input/output interface for a quantum computer?
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Re: Energy
Bose-Einstien condensates are highly unstable.sevens wrote:If you're able to condense thousands of atoms into the same quantum state, wouldn't you then be able to 'recharge' these same 'cluster' atoms into a stable form of renewable energy?
By using the same method, wouldn't you be able to provide an input/output interface for a quantum computer?
Re: Uncertainty principle
As I understand it, the uncertainty principle arises from the fact that something like an electron or a photon is not inherently a particle or a wave. When you try to specify something about it that is very particle-like (like an exact position), then you be able to less precisely specify something that is wave-like (like frequency). It's not just a matter of measurement; if the particle is very localized, then its frequency is smeared out. If it's frequency is contained within a very small range, then it stretches out over a relatively large area.ksolway wrote:As I understand it, the uncertainty principle is brought about by the fact that our very observing of things influences our measurements, which limits the usefulness of those measurements.
Physicists call it the wave-particle duality.