What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Russell Parr
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Russell Parr »

Sounds like a typical near-death experience. When this happens the brain floods itself with hallucinogen-like chemicals in order to divert consciousness away from the traumatizing experience the victim is having. Combine this with the person's deepest, most treasured core beliefs and an experience is had similar to the one you describe, with uncontrolled imagination filling in the details.

A Christian will swear they've seen Christ or God, while a Muslim will swear they've seen Allah, etc. etc.

Mystical experiences, while indeed can be quite life changing, shouldn't be taken quite so literally.
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Jackal44
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Jackal44 »

Yes, but there is something strange on this case:-He wasn´t in danger, or after an accident or ill or any health problem.
It´s a pure mystic experience. Of course something happened.
But the relation between chemistry and spirituality is something to see...
Goodbye forever blind alley!
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Russell Parr
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Russell Parr »

Clairvoyants and oracles are able to induce themselves into a trance and have visions on demand. If one believes hard enough, this sort of thing can happen to anybody in a normal waking state.

Be careful not to place much stock in such things. This realm is just as connected to the source of Reality as any other one might conjure up or experience. Thinking otherwise is nothing more than a sign of a lack of understanding. There is only one Reality, one God.
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Jackal44
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Jackal44 »

For me what is really important at this case is the fact that a bad guy turned into a good one. That was a dramatic change.
As the same time, what I look for here is being helpul in the task of forming a community of decent people. Even special people.
A very hard labour after years of searching.
Goodbye forever blind alley!
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Russell Parr
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Russell Parr »

Jackal44 wrote:For me what is really important at this case is the fact that a bad guy turned into a good one.
Nearly everyone that has had a NDE or similar mystical experience claim it has changed them for the better. Sure, it can provide a decent jolt in causing someone to re-evaluate their lives, but unless they understand what's really going on, who's to say their delusions won't lead them (or those around them) back into the same dilemma that got them in their demented state in the first place?
As the same time, what I look for here is being helpul in the task of forming a community of decent people. Even special people.
A very hard labour after years of searching.
You may be in the wrong place then. The path to Enlightenment is a personal journey, in which the goal is the epitome of wisdom. It requires a lot of time and solitude, as well as rejecting those around you, often those you love, that might inhibit you and your efforts. Most people simply aren't cut out for it. Earlier you asked why this place is called Genius forum; in case you missed it, here's the board introduction.
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Jackal44
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Jackal44 »

Russel. You got clearly problems of understanding. I say one thing you see another. When I tell this person changed his life is not just a shallow or empty word. It´s not your world, where you do not trust even what you´re saying.
On the other hand, I know what this forum is all about. My goal is finding a community of clever people, and I know this is not my place.
Again you are not able to read. I asked "Why this forum is called genius?".
Because the mediocrity I find here is common in the Net.
So, I´ll try again, of course, in another place.
Goodbye forever blind alley!
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John Paul
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by John Paul »

I would say something like "The Allegory of the Cave" except, when you think you have been unchained you're still just dreaming.Truth and enlightenment is just another illusion,escapism, piousness all of it.
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Russell Parr
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Russell Parr »

Hello there, John.
John Paul wrote:I would say something like "The Allegory of the Cave" except, when you think you have been unchained you're still just dreaming.
Including yourself?
Truth and enlightenment is just another illusion,escapism, piousness all of it.
Regarding truth, this statement is workable if we're talking about subjective truth. Otherwise, it is akin to saying "there is no truth/this is a true statement." A classic oxymoron.

As for enlightenment.. well that depends on how you define it. The intended definition around here is, simply put, the absence of delusion in one's thinking.
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John Paul
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by John Paul »

Russell wrote:Hello there, John.
John Paul wrote:I would say something like "The Allegory of the Cave" except, when you think you have been unchained you're still just dreaming.
Including yourself?
Absolutely.
Truth and enlightenment is just another illusion,escapism, piousness all of it.
Russell wrote: Regarding truth, this statement is workable if we're talking about subjective truth. Otherwise, it is akin to saying "there is no truth/this is a true statement." A classic oxymoron.

As for enlightenment.. well that depends on how you define it. The intended definition around here is, simply put, the absence of delusion in one's thinking.
Hello friend

Seems the truth you speak of is really a mutual perspective.Who decides ? Is it decided around here?
Illusory superiority or Impostor syndrome who makes that call?
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Russell Parr
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Russell Parr »

John Paul wrote:
Russell wrote:
I would say something like "The Allegory of the Cave" except, when you think you have been unchained you're still just dreaming.
Including yourself?
Absolutely.
Care to elaborate?

I would say that life is like a dream, in the sense that everything we experience carries an inherent uncertainty to some degree, but experience is experience. No point in labeling the whole of experience "a dream," otherwise we must bring into question what it means to be awake?
John wrote:
Russell wrote: Regarding truth, this statement is workable if we're talking about subjective truth. Otherwise, it is akin to saying "there is no truth/this is a true statement." A classic oxymoron.

As for enlightenment.. well that depends on how you define it. The intended definition around here is, simply put, the absence of delusion in one's thinking.
Hello friend

Seems the truth you speak of is really a mutual perspective.Who decides ? Is it decided around here?
Illusory superiority or Impostor syndrome who makes that call?
It's not so much about who defines truth, but by what means: logic and reason.

With logic and reason, anybody can discern absolute Truth about reality. All one has to do is take on an idea about reality, honestly ask oneself if the idea is logically sound, as many times as one needs to, and can thus conclude that it is true.

A simple example: We exist.
Patriarch
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Patriarch »

Let's define "truth" first; ambiguity is useless. By saying "truth", I mean the objective laws [which we assume exist - or what's the point of anything?] that shape reality, and that all things obey.

That being the definition, why is human culture mostly obsessed with nonsense, cultism, and whatever other bullshit happens to being going on? Stupidity. It's really that simple.

The complexity of reality, the fast-paced desperation of life, the inherited irrationality within our culture, the lack of culture aiding in the maturation process, etc, etc, etc, etc, all make figuring out the rules of our surrounding difficult. Born into this shitty situation [keeping in mind that almost all non-adoptive parents are unfit to be parents], people rarely develop enough to be able to handle reality, or "truth".

Instead of successfully constructing the extremely intricate machine that is a mature human being, they become twisted perversion of their ideal form. The simple-minded fool that become twisted, empty husks, aside, there are those which become far worse. In the example of intelligent people who lack emotional maturity, you most often get the self-deceptive - like the religious, but far more dangerous.

These are the worst types of people - "evil" if you will. They, like the religious but with far more potency [individually], are sociologic poison; they are detriments to humanity as a whole, who simply must be imprisoned and reeducated. Examples being CEOs, politicians, military men that are common to this era; I'm not saying those noble professions are only manned by psychopaths, I'm saying those professions, in this era, are manned primarily by psychopaths. Digression.

The point: these simple children, like the religious, propagate lies. Lies, misinformation, prevent accurate assessment of reality, thus preventing control. They lie not only to gain control of those around them, but to hide their weakness and perversion from themselves: it's far easier to pretend everything is sunshine and cupcakes, than it is to put in the fucking work.
Pam Seeback
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Patriarch, regarding these objective laws of truth of which you speak that shape reality (and by reality I assume you mean everything), is not the "human culture [that is] mostly obsessed with nonsense, cultism, and whatever other bullshit happens to being going on" not a part of this shaped reality?
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Patriarch »

movingalways wrote:Patriarch, regarding these objective laws of truth of which you speak that shape reality (and by reality I assume you mean everything), is not the "human culture [that is] mostly obsessed with nonsense, cultism, and whatever other bullshit happens to being going on" not a part of this shaped reality?
People are capable of being incorrect, and culture is nothing more than a collection of ideas. Estimates suggest 100 billion homo sapiens have existed. Thats how many people it took for the world to come to it's current state. How many of them were worth listening to?
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Pam Seeback »

movingalways wrote:
Patriarch, regarding these objective laws of truth of which you speak that shape reality (and by reality I assume you mean everything), is not the "human culture [that is] mostly obsessed with nonsense, cultism, and whatever other bullshit happens to being going on" not a part of this shaped reality?
Patriarch wrote: People are capable of being incorrect, and culture is nothing more than a collection of ideas. Estimates suggest 100 billion homo sapiens have existed. Thats how many people it took for the world to come to it's current state. How many of them were worth listening to?
Are you confusing objectivity of the sentient mind (factual statements, i.e., the lamp is on the table) with the philosophy of objectivism which theorizes the absolute/ontological objectivity of objects? Stating that most people are stupid, simple children that don't want to do the fucking work is not an objective fact, it is your subjective opinion. Neither is it an example of objectivism, how can that which is absolute be incorrect?

As a launching off point for further discussion if you are so inclined, I offer this view of reality for your consideration: that reality is neither subjective or objective but causal, and being causal, whatever is caused to be effected (the absolute truth of reality-in-action) occurs beyond the scope of the human mind to analyze or understand. In other words, because your intellectual-emotional world and my intellectual-emotional world are effects of an unknown cause, no man or woman can make objective or absolute judgments of another's intellectual-emotional world, which is what you appear to be doing in your posts. In truth one can say I believe most people are stupid, simple children or it is my opinion that most people are stupid, simple children, however, in truth one cannot say that most people are stupid, simple children. And related to the truth that no man or woman can find the original cause of a pattern of thought, how do they "become [a] twisted perversion of their ideal form?"

I put to you that if there is such a thing as an ideal form, your mind that is confined to the world of duality-relativity has no way of knowing what it is. You can believe yourself or others to be reasonable or unreasonable, that is all.
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Patriarch »

Are you confusing objectivity of the sentient mind (factual statements, i.e., the lamp is on the table) with the philosophy of objectivism which theorizes the absolute/ontological objectivity of objects? Stating that most people are stupid, simple children that don't want to do the fucking work is not an objective fact, it is your subjective opinion. Neither is it an example of objectivism, how can that which is absolute be incorrect?

As a launching off point for further discussion if you are so inclined, I offer this view of reality for your consideration: that reality is neither subjective or objective but causal, and being causal, whatever is caused to be effected (the absolute truth of reality-in-action) occurs beyond the scope of the human mind to analyze or understand. In other words, because your intellectual-emotional world and my intellectual-emotional world are effects of an unknown cause, no man or woman can make objective or absolute judgments of another's intellectual-emotional world, which is what you appear to be doing in your posts. In truth one can say I believe most people are stupid, simple children or it is my opinion that most people are stupid, simple children, however, in truth one cannot say that most people are stupid, simple children. And related to the truth that no man or woman can find the original cause of a pattern of thought, how do they "become [a] twisted perversion of their ideal form?"

I put to you that if there is such a thing as an ideal form, your mind that is confined to the world of duality-relativity has no way of knowing what it is. You can believe yourself or others to be reasonable or unreasonable, that is all.[/quote]

Hm. If that were true, it would make a lovely excuse for many forms of weakness, immorality, and loudmouthed meddling. So, there are things we can't understand. But where's the line? Where's the part that we can understand and influence [which, by all accounts, is everything we perceive - which doesn't get inexplicably influenced very often, as it should constantly if your theory is accurate] and the part we can't? What is this defining line composed of?

If we can understand nothing, if everyone is magic and sunshine [not at all detriments to humanity, that need to learn to keep their mouths shut and their brains functional] then how do we get anything done? How does this conversation occur? Do we simply wish it to be, and mother comes and gives us things? And, you may want to consider socializing: it will become exceedingly clear, very quickly, how fucking shitty most people are lol. THATS ALL
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Patriarch:
Hm. If that were true, it would make a lovely excuse for many forms of weakness, immorality, and loudmouthed meddling. So, there are things we can't understand. But where's the line? Where's the part that we can understand and influence [which, by all accounts, is everything we perceive - which doesn't get inexplicably influenced very often, as it should constantly if your theory is accurate] and the part we can't? What is this defining line composed of?
Of my experience, the defining line is the integrity of the truth that consciousness is a living, individual, moment by moment causal reality. I cannot KNOW you anymore than you can KNOW me.
If we can understand nothing, if everyone is magic and sunshine [not at all detriments to humanity, that need to learn to keep their mouths shut and their brains functional] then how do we get anything done? How does this conversation occur? Do we simply wish it to be, and mother comes and gives us things? And, you may want to consider socializing: it will become exceedingly clear, very quickly, how fucking shitty most people are lol. THATS ALL
When one understands that everyone is a living, individual expression of a moment by moment causal reality they also understand that the only way two individuals can connect is by way of love and respect for one another's Individuality and by way of reasoning if agreement on what to be done is necessary.

Did not Hitler believe he KNEW what was right for the "fucking, shitty" world, end of story, THATS ALL, I'm your Patriarch Absolute? How did that turn out? :-)
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Patriarch »

So nothing can be known, except for your theory?

Can someone outline the rules around here, so I can know exactly how much damage I can do to him?
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Patriarch wrote:So nothing can be known, except for your theory?

Can someone outline the rules around here, so I can know exactly how much damage I can do to him?
If you had some consciousness of truth, you would have said "Can someone outline the rules around here so I use them to try to do damage to him or her?" Your assumption a) that I am male and b) that you can damage me reveals more about what you believe you know than what you know. Why do you come in the spirit of damaging? Whether you realize it or not, the spirit of reasoning is a lot more productive. :-)
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Patriarch »

movingalways wrote:
Patriarch wrote:So nothing can be known, except for your theory?

Can someone outline the rules around here, so I can know exactly how much damage I can do to him?
If you had some consciousness of truth, you would have said "Can someone outline the rules around here so I use them to try to do damage to him or her?" Your assumption a) that I am male and b) that you can damage me reveals more about what you believe you know than what you know. Why do you come in the spirit of damaging? Whether you realize it or not, the spirit of reasoning is a lot more productive. :-)
If you reread the conversation, you may notice that you've strayed from the point; presumably to avoid admitting you're just say words with no understanding of their meaning - or the conversation's position.

That being the case [that you're talking to yourself for the sake of soothing your ego], you need some pain: applied correctly, the line between your imagination and reality may become illuminated. If you fail to comprehend this very simple methodology, recall that I'm not your father, and have no desire to raise you: if you're that immature, you're of no value to me.

Now, I'll give you one more chance. I'll pretend you haven't been talking to yourself if you continue the conversation.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Patriarch wrote:That being the case [that you're talking to yourself for the sake of soothing your ego], you need some pain: applied correctly, the line between your imagination and reality may become illuminated.
The idea is to give pain with a very sharp lancet, logic, reason, penetration of fact and definition. Don't confuse it with crude mud slinging as that would qualify as emotional hysteria under the guise of being clever. There's no way anyone can be given pain with a few remarks or suggestions on a forum.
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Naturalist »

The truth is not out there. The truth arises in you. You are the truth. You create truths and not someone else out there.

That's why, it's difficult for one to see the truth because one's eyes couldn't see one's own eyes.
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Cahoot
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Cahoot »

Naturalist wrote:The truth is not out there. The truth arises in you. You are the truth. You create truths and not someone else out there.

That's why, it's difficult for one to see the truth because one's eyes couldn't see one's own eyes.
If one person identifies a shape as a duck
And another person at the same time identifies the same shape as an cow
Are both created truths, true?
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Re: What's Stopping us From Seeing the Truth?

Post by Naturalist »

Cahoot wrote:If one person identifies a shape as a duck
And another person at the same time identifies the same shape as an cow
Are both created truths, true?
Yes, both the duck and the cow are created truths. Precisely, this kind of truth is also known as conventional truth i.e. a subjective cum relative truth. This means the truth orientation is dependent on the observer (i.e. the subject’s mind) to provide the description, definition, recognition, valuation, etc. on the other side of the object or matter. And the truth conclusion varies among different observers or minds.

For example, if you show an I-phone to a caveman, he would describe it as merely a useless hard object. And if you show it to lets say, an ant, it becomes a gigantic heavy object. Likewise, you can be named as a human, a son, a father, a preacher, a student, a Caucasian, an American, a thin man, an old man, a buyer, a supplier, a stranger, etc. concurrently. At the end of the day, the observer (be it your own self or another third party) would provide the definition or recognition based on their respective perception on the same referred object or matter.
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