What do you think the ego is?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Pam Seeback
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Kunga wrote:
movingalways wrote:These experiences you have had, are not a part of conditioned existence?
Everything in existence is because of causes and conditions. Inherently they are empty . So what point are you trying to make ? Enlightenment is part of conditioned existence, Wisdom is conditioned. What isn't conditioned ?
Truth, wisdom is not conditioned. If it were, it would have no power to end the suffering of conditioning. Is it not absolutely true that there is no self? Is it not absolutely true that form is impermanent? Is it not absolutely true that one suffers when they cling to self and crave form? These are the basic things the Buddha taught, the Buddha who had attained Nirvana, the unconditioned.

Knowing the difference between the absolute (the unborn and unconditioned - absolute truth) and the relative (the born and conditioned - imagination, dukka) is critical if one is to be liberated from the latter. Since you believe everything including (and especially) wisdom is conditioned, it is no wonder you suffer as you do. The hard truth is that the search for knowledge (instead of wisdom) is the search for, and continued propagation of, imagined (conditioned) things. This truth applies to knowledge in all realms of consciousness.

This search for conditioned things is not wrong or evil, everyone born into sentience participates, but when wisdom of the absolute calls, the search for things does a 180.
Pam Seeback
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Kunga wrote:
ardy wrote: big decisions generally mean big changes and we subconsciously avoid them like the plague.
Consciously avoid them too !
ardy wrote:Just look back at the GFC to see how little under control we are.
What is the GFC ? (Genius Forum Conduct ?)

Speaking of being under control, I am presently starting to rebel at every fucking thing (more than ever) that tries to control me...laws, rules, regulations, society,religion, seat belts, paying taxes, work,paying bills, people, bad habits, stop lights, stop signs, sick of the matrix !!!!!

I read the Gita years ago....yes...we must let go of thinking of the outcome...but it's so hard when you think.
Kunga, there is no outside force that controls "us", this is belief in an inherent self, delusion 101. The truth is that there is only the law of cause and effect, The Causality, wisdom 101. Which means "you" are the Law. Welcome to reality. :-)

Hurts at first, but after a while, sweet relief.
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Kunga
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote:Truth, wisdom is (are) (not is ) not conditioned.
But you subconsciously wrote IS (haha)

Yes it is. There are causes and conditions for realizing what Truth and Wisdom are. You realize Truth and Wisdom by reasoning,meditating,experiencing,intuition,Enlightenment.

How can Truth or Wisdom even be realized without having a mind or human body ? The human mind and body are products of causes and conditions.

Truth and Wisdom are the by-products of deep study and reflection.

They are also concepts of conditioning.
Suffering is a concept.

In the Unconditioned, their is no suffering in the first place.
So how can Truth or Wisdom (conditioned by human effort), end suffering when suffering is an illusion in the first place?
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Kunga
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Kunga »

And on top of that, there is no Truth or Wisdom, as they are conditional human constructs.

Ego likes to think it's smart. If I was smart, I'd STFU !
Pam Seeback
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Kunga wrote:
movingalways wrote:Truth, wisdom is (are) (not is ) not conditioned.
But you subconsciously wrote IS (haha)

Yes it is. There are causes and conditions for realizing what Truth and Wisdom are. You realize Truth and Wisdom by reasoning,meditating,experiencing,intuition,Enlightenment.

How can Truth or Wisdom even be realized without having a mind or human body ? The human mind and body are products of causes and conditions.

Truth and Wisdom are the by-products of deep study and reflection.

They are also concepts of conditioning.
Suffering is a concept.

In the Unconditioned, their is no suffering in the first place.
So how can Truth or Wisdom (conditioned by human effort), end suffering when suffering is an illusion in the first place?
Are you, who is conditioned and suffers separate from the unconditioned wherein there is no suffering? If you say yes, tell me how you managed to literally/actually slice "you" in two.

"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated [the unconditioned], there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated [the conditioned] would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

Have you encountered the doctrine of Trikaya, the three bodies of a Buddha? If not, check it out. It explains how one can have a flesh body and be a vehicle for absolute truth.
Pam Seeback
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Kunga wrote:And on top of that, there is no Truth or Wisdom, as they are conditional human constructs.

Ego likes to think it's smart. If I was smart, I'd STFU !
Kunga, since you have acknowledged many times that you are not enlightened why do you speak as if you are?

Can you not see the contradiction in your first statement? You say there is no Truth or Wisdom but in the saying that there is no Truth or Wisdom you say it as if it is the truth.
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Kunga
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote:Are you, who is conditioned and suffers separate from the unconditioned wherein there is no suffering? If you say yes, tell me how you managed to literally/actually slice "you" in two.
That's why we suffer. We are conditioned to suffer (karma , which doesn't really exist either.). The person, (that inherently does not exist), is feeling the perception of existence, as we are not yet 100% in our right mind. LOL

So we exist conditionally (form) and don't exist (emptiness) SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Pam Seeback
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Another translation of the Nibbana Sutta which explains what must be done to realize Nibbana (the unconditioned):

The born, become, produced,
made, fabricated, impermanent,
fabricated of aging & death,
a nest of illnesses, perishing,
come-into-being through nourishment
and the guide [that is craving] —
is unfit for delight.

The escape from that
is calm, permanent,
a sphere beyond conjecture,
unborn, unproduced,
the sorrowless, stainless state,
the cessation of stressful qualities,
stilling-of-fabrications bliss.

The Buddha spoke these words with a brain and a mouth of flesh.
Pam Seeback
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Kunga wrote:
movingalways wrote:Are you, who is conditioned and suffers separate from the unconditioned wherein there is no suffering? If you say yes, tell me how you managed to literally/actually slice "you" in two.
That's why we suffer. We are conditioned to suffer (karma , which doesn't really exist either.). The person, (that inherently does not exist), is feeling the perception of existence, as we are not yet 100% in our right mind. LOL

So we exist conditionally (form) and don't exist (emptiness) SIMULTANEOUSLY.
I suggest you read the suttas only when your mind is calm and undisturbed.
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Kunga
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote:Kunga, since you have acknowledged many times that you are not enlightened why do you speak as if you are?
Because I know how to think, and reason . Thinking and reasoning clearly (using logic), in these discussions, has nothing to do with being Enlightened.

Who's Enlightened ?

It's only the EGO that thinks it's wise.
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Kunga
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote: I suggest you read the suttas only when your mind is calm and undisturbed.
I suggest you read the Heart Sutra :

http://usashaolintemple.org/chanbuddhis ... anslation/
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Cahoot
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Cahoot »

Kunga wrote:
movingalways wrote: I suggest you read the suttas only when your mind is calm and undisturbed.
I suggest you read the Heart Sutra :

http://usashaolintemple.org/chanbuddhis ... anslation/
(As we hold hands around the circle, I now speak in the disembodied voice of Kunga Heart Sutra …)

lights dim

You know movingalways, I thought about this thing that you wrote. At first I flashed hot, because when anyone tells me that they “suggest” I do something… well, I hear sarcasm and I see a little head waggin. So I gave it some time and that reaction faded away, and I could see that the only heat came from my own reaction to my own interpretation.

Then I thought, she’s right. I was a bit agitated. It’s in the tone. That happens when intellect begins to stir, when energetic thoughts start banging around. Sometimes the swirling intellectual agitation displaces attention from simple things, like breathing, and the life force can even ebb. This is why thinking can be so hard. So I should be thankful for that advice, in a detached way, for it is good advice in order to see clearly, and seeing the truth clearly brings the ultimate antidote to all suffering ... awareness that dispels ignorance.

Then I thought, why do I need to wait until my mind is calm and undisturbed to read the sutras? Why would I need the comfort of sutras if everything is hunky dory? Why do I need to read sutras when I am at peace? When I am at peace I can live undisturbed, which is where dharma is supposed to take me to. Don’t need to go there if I’m already there. When my mind is raging and disturbed, this is when I need to read the sutras. This is when I need the refuge of dharma.

So, in considering your wise advice, I see that for me I must turn to dharma for that peace of mind rather than turning to action, for even though we can say that the dharma is merely relative teachings when compared to the absolute, time and events have proven that dharma is my predilection. That’s why I quote dharma. It is part of the continuity in which my identity here and now resides, and I can only begin here and now.

I think that in interpreting and considering the advice that you shared out of kindness, generosity, and concern, I will drop the sails until dharma has calmed the churning seas of punctuation, when the clouds break and precious gifts of communication effortlessly flow from unobstructed, natural ahimsa.
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ardy
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by ardy »

Cahoot wrote:You know movingalways, I thought about this thing that you wrote. At first I flashed hot, because when anyone tells me that they “suggest” I do something… well, I hear sarcasm and I see a little head waggin. So I gave it some time and that reaction faded away, and I could see that the only heat came from my own reaction to my own interpretation.

Then I thought, she’s right. I was a bit agitated. It’s in the tone. That happens when intellect begins to stir, when energetic thoughts start banging around. Sometimes the swirling intellectual agitation displaces attention from simple things, like breathing, and the life force can even ebb. This is why thinking can be so hard. So I should be thankful for that advice, in a detached way, for it is good advice in order to see clearly, and seeing the truth clearly brings the ultimate antidote to all suffering ... awareness that dispels ignorance.

Then I thought, why do I need to wait until my mind is calm and undisturbed to read the sutras? Why would I need the comfort of sutras if everything is hunky dory? Why do I need to read sutras when I am at peace? When I am at peace I can live undisturbed, which is where dharma is supposed to take me to. Don’t need to go there if I’m already there. When my mind is raging and disturbed, this is when I need to read the sutras. This is when I need the refuge of dharma.

So, in considering your wise advice, I see that for me I must turn to dharma for that peace of mind rather than turning to action, for even though we can say that the dharma is merely relative teachings when compared to the absolute, time and events have proven that dharma is my predilection. That’s why I quote dharma. It is part of the continuity in which my identity here and now resides, and I can only begin here and now.

I think that in interpreting and considering the advice that you shared out of kindness, generosity, and concern, I will drop the sails until dharma has calmed the churning seas of punctuation, when the clouds break and precious gifts of communication effortlessly flow from unobstructed, natural ahimsa.
Better Dharma than Dharma Bum to quote that dead American author who ran into a brick wall thinking it was a shimmer of light.

A lovely write and honest to. There is not one of us who cannot understand the thinking process you went through.

Now dharma next the train, don't get too scared to jump aboard when the whistle blows. A friend of mine is off on a 9 day retreat with his Zen group, I have no idea how anyone can do that. I had a laugh with him when I told him not to forget to jump over the rainbow when he is in deep samadhi, he said 'I'll be happy with any shard of coloured light'.

Sorry I cannot keep my analogies in order they seem to wander uncontrolled.

Who says that enlightenment brings peace? I suspect that we remain the same basically, looking for a cat to cut in half.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunga wrote:Speaking of being under control, I am presently starting to rebel at every fucking thing (more than ever) that tries to control me...laws, rules, regulations, society,religion, seat belts, paying taxes, work,paying bills, people, bad habits, stop lights, stop signs, sick of the matrix !!!!!
Speaking as someone who has been there big time I can only prepare you gently for the realization that the "matrix" you're rebelling against is you just as well.. Every bit of your person, taste, habits and even your rebellion is integral part of the same structure. What you name "control" is cause and effect. The rebellion is then still against this truth. The struggle will give you some muscle and social insight but in the end it's often a fight against your own windmills. Don't let it drive you towards defragmentation too much! Question the world as much as you question your self fundamentally.
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