Enlightenment

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Again confusing a collection of meditative tools and present screw driving with philosophy and wisdom.

[Dennis Mahar]

Again confusing a collection of meditative tools and present screw driving with philosophy and wisdom.
equals
Again confusing a collection of meditative tools and present screw driving with philosophy and wisdom.

its empty and meaningless that its empty and meaningless,
'til I provide the meaning.

'enrolment'
'affectivity'

[Diebert van Rhijn]

More screw driving from a "screw up" in terms of developing any love for wisdom.

Dennis the saboteur, butchering his own sentences, descending on every discussion and throwing around his excrement, the repetitious self-soothing rejection of Father, Creation, Thought, Past, Language and all the suffering it represents to him. Love expressed as self-violence.

[Dennis Mahar]

Take a bex and sleep it off lad.

[Leyla Shen]

Bloody Nora!
the only thing you supply is causes/conditions commentary.

One does not supply anything. One is causes/conditions. A wise man is caused to be wise, and a fool to be foolish. "Commentary" does not exist independently of existence.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Hey, couldn't have said that last one better. Excellent! Awake!

[Pam Seeback]

It is interesting to me that someone will assert correctly that spirit is the cause of everything and then leave out the stuff they can't reconcile with their ideal view of spirit. The truth is, of course, that nothing can be left out, it can only be rejected or denied. Dennis' provides proof of this law every time he opens his mouth.

[Dennis Mahar]

form is empty.
empty is empty.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

as well,
form is form,
empty is form,
spirit filling up.

[Dennis Mahar]

mind generates form.
things of the mind.
nothing exists from its own side.
conditional.

spirit is formless.
Infinite, not-a-thing.
inexpressible.
spirit in all things.

spirit, mind, body.

gush free zone.
completely ordinary.

what's astonishing is the whole shebang is uncaused.
don't give me causes/conditions as the mind would have it.
appearance only.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

what's astonishing is the whole shebang is uncaused.
don't give me causes/conditions as the mind would have it.
appearance only.

Yes but what you call appearance, I call cause or condition. And any reaction to appearance is also cause and condition. All relative and inconclusive yet unavoidable.

The point is to be attentive. Giving attention to expressions of the inexpressible. This is what some call wisdom, learning the "way and word" - which should be one word.

The mind of Dennis asks me not to give causes and conditions while that is all that Dennis is and deals in. That's the contradiction, the "wall" in your words.

[Dennis Mahar]

wisdom means keeping out of trouble.
detached.
untrammelled mind.

when we use language form is called up.
appearance looming solid.
the mind forms and conditions.

sorry about that chief.
suck it up.
lingo is what we've got for tool.

[Leyla Shen]

That's the truth, Dennis, of phenomenalism, not wisdom.

Try again:

This is the proper phenomenalism and perspectivism as I understand it: the nature of animal consciousness involves the notion that the world of which we can become conscious is only a superficial and symbolic world, a generalised and vulgarised world; - that everything which becomes conscious becomes just thereby shallow, meagre, relatively stupid, - a generalisation, a symbol, a characteristic of the herd; that with the evolving of consciousness there is always combined a great, radical perversion, falsification, superficial-isation, and generalisation. Finally, the growing consciousness is a danger, and whoever lives among the most conscious Europeans knows even that it is a disease. As may be conjectured, it is not the antithesis of subject and object with which I am here concerned: I leave that distinction to the epistemologists who have remained entangled in the toils of grammar (popular metaphysics). It is still less the antithesis of "thing in itself" and phenomenon, for we do not "know" enough to be entitled even to make such a distinction. Indeed, we have not any organ at all for knowing, or for "truth": we "know" (or believe, or fancy) just as much as may be of use in the interest of the human herd, the species; and even what is here called "usefulness" is ultimately only a belief, a fancy, and perhaps precisely the most fatal stupidity by which we shall one day be ruined—Nietzsche

[Dennis Mahar]

no phenomena, no wisdom.
wisdom depends on phenomena.

Fred's scared of something and recontextualises in order to protect something else.
what?

looks like the ol' perp, rescuer, victim 2 yo tantrum.

clearly he's into survival options.
a set of assessments,
a range of options.
a winning formula.

[Leyla Shen]

no phenomena, no wisdom.
wisdom depends on phenomena.

No, it doesn't. Wisdom is an aspect of consciousness.

Phenomenalism, as you say, is indeed literally empty form:

Mirror, mirror on the wall
Who's the most blissful
Object of them all?

The "Genius of the Species"? The problem of consciousness (or more correctly: of becoming conscious of oneself) meets us only when we begin to perceive in what measure we could dispense with it: and it is at the beginning of this perception that we are now placed by physiology and zoology (which have thus required two centuries to overtake the hint thrown out in advance by Leibnitz)—Nietzsche

So tell us again, how are you feeling today, Dennis?

[Dennis Mahar]

consciousness is form.

The appearing object of a conceptual mind. A generic image, or mental image, of an object is like a reflection of that object.
Conceptual minds know their object through the appearance of a generic image of that object, not by seeing the object directly.
The conceptual mind mistakes the generic image, or mental image, for the object itself. For example, if we think about our mother, an image of our mother appears to our conceptual mind, and it seems to that mind as if our mother herself is appearing.
However, the object that principally appears to that mind is the generic image of our mother. This generic image appears to our mind through the mental exclusion of all objects that are not our mother. It is therefore the appearance of a non non mother.

[Leyla Shen]

Consciousness is not form. Phenomenalism is form.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Actually one might even say that consciousness is what is being called the formless here. Could we say that all "formlessness" then also is "consciousness"?

Beyond consciousness there can be no form or formlessness. Forms relate to formlessness like objects relate to consciousness. Metaphysically spoken of course.

Anyone feel free to criticize the language used here. It might need improvement or a better context like expanded definitions. Like every post might need.

[Leyla Shen]

How many minds do you have, Dennis, that you ought to qualify one of them in particular?

[Leyla Shen]

Actually one might even say that consciousness is what is being called the formless here.

Well, there's the discussion Dennis is having with himself, and then there's a persistent introduction by injection of Nietzsche's insight into the metaphysics of self.

To Dennis I would further say: consciousness contains phenomena, but phenomena necessarily do not contain consciousness.

[Dennis Mahar]

Spirit, mind, body.
mind is transformable.

Break down Fred's high falutin' academese into its elements.
It's a Story.
like Thomas the Tank Engine.
chug, chug, chug.

like he signalled,
literary philosophers.

it breaks down to a business model. (takin' care of business).
its got:
embodied
encultured
enactive
affective
extended environmentally

a possibility for self in world.
Tommy the Tank.

conceptual mind, generic image, archetype.

[Dennis Mahar]

Bodymind falls asleep at night.
has a dream
has a dreamless sleep
wakes up in the morning.
form.

[Bobo]

We have objects (which can be said have no form yet).
Then consciousness of objects, called forms.
And consciousness of consciousness, called formless.

[Leyla Shen]

Spirit, mind, body.
mind is transformable.

Break down Fred's high falutin' academese into its elements.
It's a Story.
like Thomas the Tank Engine.
chug, chug, chug.

like he signalled,
literary philosophers.

it breaks down to a business model. (takin' care of business).
its got:
embodied
encultured
enactive
affective
extended environmentally

a possibility for self in world.
Tommy the Tank.

conceptual mind, generic image, archetype.

You read far too much, and think not at all.

What's the difference between metanarrative and metaphysics?

[Dennis Mahar]

Possibilities generated conceptually.
not the same
not different

business models.
profiles
theses