Enlightenment

[Pam Seeback]

Ineffable silence.
correct view
non conceptual

'Hidden void' etc merely conventional designations.

No, not correct view. By your own assertion, nirvana and samsara are one and the same. You're still caught in the spell of two truths and haven't yet made the two one.

If what you call ineffable silence is non-conceptual, then how are you, the consciousness called Dennis that is not separate from non-conceptual ineffable silence, able to use concepts?

Your blanket of bliss continues to block your absolute view of things.

[Dennis Mahar]

Absolute, relative etc conventional designators.
Tao cannot be named
get over it.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Absolute, relative etc conventional designators.
Tao cannot be named
get over it.

"The Tao that can be spoken.."

There! the first line of the origin of your non-original thought already claims the reverse. It mentions a Tao that can be spoken.

Have you never considered the full meaning of the line? And the second is to contrast it with an unchanging, unspoken Tao.

But there's only one of course, there's no "false" Tao out there somewhere lurking in our words.
The base of the whole body of Daoism and so many people still choking on the first line!

[Pam Seeback]

The Tao can't be named because the Tao is doing the naming.

No surprise, you didn't answer my question. I'll try again:

If what you call ineffable silence is non-conceptual, then how are you, the consciousness called Dennis that is not separate from non-conceptual ineffable silence, able to use concepts?

[Pam Seeback]

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

[Pam Seeback]

Many people do not look at the yin yang symbol in its totality, missing the contrasted dot in each aspect of the Tao, the nameless and the named. They are inseparable.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

Tao is doing the naming.

A proper sounding explanation which at least I found useful is to be found at friesian.com:

• The Tao Te Ching begins with a pun: "Way" and "spoken of" ("said") are the same character (Dào). So the first line says: "The Tao that can be tao-ed is not the constant Tao."

It's a seeming contradiction obviously, a mind game for the student at the time. How can there be two Tao's? One is moving, the other not? Names being named not being Unnamed?

The concept can be found in many traditions though. It's like the son, being word, praying being spirit, to the father being eternal.

[TheImmanent]

The idea of a conglomeration of ideas as an agent. Such is the individual, subjective consciousness and its will to be. A concept.

No, not an agent, as in the presence of a self, but as the way the infinite spirit is expressed. Is not your thought world different than mine and everyone else's?

There is no you & your thought world. A thought world is a bundle of ideas, among them the idea of you complemented by your thought world (i.e., a conceptual blockage).

The juxtaposition between a person and a persons thought world conceals spirit, since it presents one of the ideas as something other than an idea, creating a false premise for any further ideas.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

This thread on translations had the right spirit going.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The concept can be found in many traditions though. It's like the son, being word, in prayer being spirit, with the father, being eternal.

And of course a man being nothing but his language, engages philosophy only as genius as path from and towards ultimate reality as the absolute.

[Dennis Mahar]

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

Tao is doing the naming.

Conceptual mind is naming and forming.
something about.....

somewhat removed.
the case for

since beginningless time conceptualising mind putting it out there.
theatre.
display.

form is empty.
empty is empty.
conceptualise that.
correct view.
running on empty.

whenever you speak you are positing causes/conditions thereby affirming dependent arising.
running on empty.

sit in your chair there.
thoughts, feelings, body sensations, sundry phenomena.
dependent arising.
cannot be refuted.
bliss.

subjectivity is conceptualised.

a life is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury that signifies nothing.
endless disconnect.

[Leyla Shen]

Right view signifies the fullness of emptiness, not nothing. "A life" as "a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing" is simply the idiotic discourse of negative pathology as something.

[Dennis Mahar]

being dependent it lacks its own essence.
isn't saying it doesn't exist.
saying in the way it exists.
such is phenomena.
its empty and meaningless that its empty and meaningless.
empty is empty.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

A life is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury that signifies nothing, endless disconnect.

You bring the meaning. You are the sign. Or endless disconnect.

Like asserting all these complex notions on "life", brilliance and idiocy, all this knowledge on "connections" or not having those.
And then denying it means something. It's like cutting one's own tongue while speaking. Violent self-mutilation in action, captured by words.

[Dennis Mahar]

It's only a pointer lad re drama. pointing out.
Irony.
mentioned in passing.

Shakespeare nicety.
Jane Austen made a career out of it.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

It's only a pointer re drama. Pointing out. Irony. Mentioned in passing.

But what isn't? All meanings are collections of pointers, of relations. All meaning making is pointing out. All writing is done in passing.

Don't keep invalidating your own words yet validating, defending and repeating them. Negation of power - as power?

[Dennis Mahar]

Don't keep invalidating your own words yet validating, defending and repeating them. Negation of power - as power?

drive by shooting
blanks.
one trick pony.

[Pam Seeback]

There cannot be an at-easement with naming, a naturalness with naming, if it's coming-into-being is considered a disconnect from its source. A disconnected Tao is a contradiction in terms. Belief in a disconnected Tao causes suffering.

[Pam Seeback]

drive by shooting
blanks.
one trick pony.

Will to annihilate, why?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

There cannot be an at-easement with naming, a naturalness with naming, if it's coming-into-being is considered a disconnect from its source.

Dennis "rebels" against naming, sentences, structures, posters with too much thought and so on but by doing all that he rebels mostly against himself. It's an emotional thing, an internal conflict being played out as external "teaching" (and in some way it always is perhaps!). And it's an endless resource of course. Like all discontent, it's stuttering and repeating the same words. Stuck in a loop. The wheel of suffering existence. But it's great to contrast with at times! The other solution is to fulfill his (denied) death wish and close off all remaining dialog here.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

drive by shooting
blanks.
one trick pony.

bang!
bang!
bang!

Dennis the Menace. Shooting backwards.

[Dennis Mahar]

rhetorical question.

[Dennis Mahar]

Let's get this straight.
when you speak it is concerning causes/conditions.
that affirms dependent arising.

that cannot be refuted.

the logic is if it is dependent arising it lacks its own essence.

the Tao is mentioning causes/conditions
therefore is dependent arising.therefore it lacks its own essence.
a conception.
can't be refuted.
you have to genuflect (bend the knee) to it to give it meaning.
the church of it.

[TheImmanent]

There is no private essence. The fact that the ego is constituted by an idea of a private essence, does not mean that the idea is correct. It remains an idea. That is, the ego can only be expressed as a misconception.

[Leyla Shen]

being dependent it lacks its own essence.
isn't saying it doesn't exist.
saying in the way it exists.
such is phenomena.
its empty and meaningless that its empty and meaningless.
empty is empty.

Reasoning exists, too. Yet, whenever yours is challenged on a particular subject, all you do is say the same thing, just like you did above; that existence exists.

Fucken hell, Dennis. Like, wow. "Existence exists". That's really deep grammar, man.