Animals and nirvana

[Pam Seeback]

It is no secret from my recent posts that I am focused on the sufferings of the animal kingdom, specifically the wild animal kingdom, and have come to the conclusion that in order to reconcile their sufferings with the wisdom of infinite subjectivity, it is necessary to accept the doctrine of animal-human soul/mind transmigration. From wiki:

Animals have always been regarded in Buddhist thought as sentient beings, different in their intellectual ability than humans but no less capable of feeling suffering. Furthermore, animals possess Buddha nature (according to the Mahāyāna school) and therefore potential for future enlightenment. Moreover, the doctrine of rebirth held that any human could be reborn as an animal, and any animal could be reborn as a human. An animal might be a reborn dead relative, and anybody who looked far enough back through his or her infinite series of lives would eventually perceive every animal to be a distant relative. The Buddha expounded that sentient beings currently living in the animal realm have been our mothers, brothers, sisters, fathers, children, friends in past rebirths. One could not, therefore, make a hard distinction between moral rules applicable to animals and those applicable to humans; ultimately humans and animals were part of a single family. They are all interconnected.

In cosmological terms, the animals were believed to inhabit a distinct "world", separated from humans not by space but by state of mind. This world was called Tiryagyoni in Sanskrit, Tiracchānayoni in Pāli. Rebirth as an animal was considered to be one of the unhappy rebirths, usually involving more than human suffering. Buddhist commentarial texts depict many sufferings associated with the animal world: even where no human beings are present, they are attacked and eaten by other animals or live in fear of it, they endure extreme changes of environment throughout the year, and they have no security of habitation. Those that live among humans are often slaughtered for their bodies, or taken and forced to work with many beatings until they are slaughtered at the end of their lives. On top of this, they suffer from ignorance, not knowing or understanding with any clarity what is happening to them and unable to do much about it, acting primarily on instinct.

I would be very interested to hear the thoughts of others on the above.

[David Quinn]

Only an animal could write that wiki entry.

[Pam Seeback]

This is wisdom's voice, a dismissive retort?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

No doubt since beginningless existence one has experienced anything and everything that could be imagined, but often when others speak of rebirth or having a life as an animal it is misleading, implying one was this person and has now been born as an animal. Rather than the truth that these forms are only passing appearances. Of course I'm sure you don't mean the transmigration of a soul, ego or personality. So there's nothing wrong with saying there is the experience of countless lifetimes of every sort, though I feel absolutely no need,want,desire, or reason to attempt lessening the suffering of the countless animals or beings. Such an attempt is no doubt delusional, and useless. It is the opposite action of one who no longer has belief in a permanent, or inherently real world.

[Kunga]

I feel absolutely no need,want,desire, or reason to attempt lessening the suffering of the countless animals or beings. Such an attempt is no doubt delusional, and useless. It is the opposite action of one who no longer has belief in a permanent, or inherently real world.

So.....you have no feelings anymore ?
Have you ever had a pet dog or cat ?
Didn't you feed then and love them ?

I don't think throwing out compassion is a trait of one that aspires to wisdom.
Without compassion...there is no wisdom.

Compassion, even though there are no sentient beings, means you have compassion for them regardless.....

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .amar.html


Compassion

Karu.naa is the Paali word translated as compassion. Contemporary writers have spoken of it thus:


It is defined as that which makes the heart of the good quiver when others are subject to suffering, or that which dissipates the suffering of others.[15]


Compassion is a virtue which uproots the wish to harm others. It makes people so sensitive to the sufferings of others and causes them to make these sufferings so much their own that they do not want to further increase them.[16]


This (compassion) isn't self-pity or pity for others. It's really feeling one's own pain and recognizing the pain of others... Seeing the web of suffering we're all entangled in, we become kind and compassionate to one another.[17]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl141.html



The Basic Passage on the Four Sublime States from the Discourses of the Buddha


I. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with loving-kindness, likewise the second, the third, and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with loving-kindness, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

II. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with compassion, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with compassion, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

III. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with sympathetic joy, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with sympathetic joy, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

IV. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with equanimity, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with equanimity, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

— Digha Nikaya 13



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el006.html

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Do you just put a ... whenever your going to make an absolute claim without any reason?

Didn't say anything about abusing people around you or wishing them pain, but trying to rid the world of suffering is the same as fighting against impermanence, all life decays, experiences suffering, fails and dies. If you want to be compassionate, talk to people, (or write, etc) about enlightenment. Yet even that is a delusional effort if done as a means to an expected end.

[Kunga]

Do you just put a ... whenever your going to make an absolute claim without any reason?

..... [silence]


I know I use them a lot.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

[Dennis Mahar]

The relation between conventional reality and ultimate reality sets up the same way as a joke.

the seriousness and then the punchline.

ain't it awful about....(Pam)
to
don't mean shit, the jokes on you. (Seeker)

[Kunga]

Yes

form[conventional] is emptiness[ultimate]

paradox

[Dennis Mahar]

You can't have the form without the empty
and you can't have a punchline without the seriousness.

It sets up that way.

can't get no satisfaction,
duh.

[Kunga]

You can't have the form without the empty
and you can't have a punchline without the seriousness.

It sets up that way.

can't get no satisfaction,
duh.

that's why we have compassion....to lessen the suffering of the [punch]

?

[Dennis Mahar]

that's part of the show too.
a drama without a bleeding heart isn't worth the price of admittance.
gotta get your money's worth.

[Kunga]

that's part of the show too.
a drama without a bleeding heart isn't worth the price of admittance.
gotta get your money's worth.

break a leg !

:)

[Dennis Mahar]

geddit?

(:

there's nothin' to get.

[Kunga]

everything is interdependent

[Dennis Mahar]

cry me a river

[Kunga]

there's nothin' to get.

nothing=nihilism

[Dennis Mahar]

nothin' is somethin'.
you ain't seen nothin' yet.

it depends where you're holding the camera,
local or global.

[Kunga]

nothin' is somethin'.
you ain't seen nothin' yet.

it depends where you're holding the camera,
local or global.

O..........K

:)

[Dennis Mahar]

local/global perspectives.
Sartre in Being and Nothingness disclosed ambiguity there and said he would construct an ethics of ambiguity around that.
He didn't.
de Beauvoir opened it up for revealing.

Ultimately we're free and locally, morally bound.

Seeker's got a girlfriend.
What if there was a hole in the condom?
His global suddenly turns to shit for survival options.

Anyway, locally, an 'enlightened personhood' shows up here and there posing the 'acts' concommitant with that sort of thang.

[Leyla Shen]

Only an animal could write that wiki entry.

This is wisdom's voice, a dismissive retort?

Lol

It reads to me as agreeable rather than dismissive, actually.

What's wrong with calling a human an animal if all animals are sentient beings?

[David Quinn]

Only an animal could write that wiki entry.

This is wisdom's voice, a dismissive retort?

If it was a retort, it was a very mild one. In truth, one cannot have enough contempt for the trashing of the Buddha's wisdom as expressed in that entry. It is like watching someone paint a moustache on the Mona Lisa.

The path taught by the Buddha was primarily about mental development, involving not only intelligent investigation into the nature of reality, but also developing a profound grasp of human psychological realities. One can only enter into enlightenment on the back of an intelligent awareness of one's own psychology and thinking through the consequences of one's thoughts and actions. The Buddhist realms of existence (i.e. the animal realms, the hell realms, the god realms, the human realm, etc) need to be understood in this light.

As the Buddha himself said, hardly anyone on this earth is lucky enough to be born into the human realm - that is to say, hardly anyone becomes entrenched enough in that youthful, vibrant mentality full of curiosity, intelligence, open-mindedness, passion, rationality, and love of truth, to be able to make a proper run at enlightenment. It is a very rare and precious attainment! Most people either degenerate contentedly into animals by the time they are young adults, losing interest in just about everything, or else they slide screaming into the fires of hell. Either way, nirvana is forever lost to them.

But if you listen to the above entry, everything is hunk-dory. Everyone is already in the human realms! We're all close to Buddhahood, no matter how dull-minded, irrational and hateful we are. This sort of nonsense only serves to turn Buddhism into a circus. It is not unlike watching those god-awful Christian fundamentalists make a total hash of the profound teachings of the Gospels and turning Jesus into a comic figure.

People often like to project a soul into their cars, even giving them (female or pet) names in the process. So what's next? Are we going to theorize that we could one day be reborn as a car?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Seeker's got a girlfriend.
What if there was a hole in the condom?
His global suddenly turns to shit for survival options.

Kill the motherfucker 'fore its born.

the seriousness and then the punchline.

ain't it awful about....(Pam)
to
don't mean shit, the jokes on you. (Seeker)

Or the girlfriend saying 'aw' for every one of the (150+) dead kangaroo's littering the roadside. The smaller ones get bigger and longer 'awws'.

It's only logical.

[Dennis Mahar]

Kill the motherfucker 'fore its born.

That would be to not-have.
To not-have as an 'in order to for the sake of'..
Survival option.


To have 'it' looks like a failure to be something or other that is precluded by having 'it'.
To have 'it' appears to be costly which means 'something is at stake'.

Structure.
An object of aversion.
and an object of desiring.
Presence of one and absence of other called forth.

Being this or that as a mattering for Being.

The desire to be Bodhisattva shows up as vapid at some point.
The Lotus Sutra goes over this shit well enough.
The ambiguity.

There are no grounds to support your 'act'.
It's this 'groundlessness' that shows you are 'flying by the seat of your pants'.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

So.....you have no feelings anymore ?
Have you ever had a pet dog or cat ?
Didn't you feed then and love them ?

On this note, you or anyone in Aus might have heard, or it will probably be on the news soon, a friend of mine from school who aspired to be a commercial airline pilot died in a "fiery explosion" after taking off in solo training yesterday in Victoria. I must have sat with this guy thousands of time over years. I clung (is that a word?) to exactly zero emotions, no attachment to any feelings of loss or delusion. How do you think I felt about the death of a dog?