Core Dysfunction and what it does

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Bobo
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Bobo »

Alex Jacob wrote: Once you have *seen* that everything is caused, that there is no free will, and that all of man's doings are the doings of ignorant false egos, it provides you with a unique if utterly reductive tool to go back through all human creations and, at least in your own mind, wipe them off the map. Devalue them. See through them. See into them as emblematic of 'ignorance' and everything evil and stupid and unnecessary in human affairs. Once you have embraced this peculiar QRS-Buddhism, you have no choice really but to see, for example, the figure of Jesus only as David does: a sort of a mushroom that should have popped up in Asia but somehow popped up in Judea. Using this strange 'acidic' view, you can undermine every aspect of 'context', and eliminate every aspect of teaching that does not conform to the only view that you can hold: that all spirituality is one thing and only one thing, this thing that you call 'enlightenment'.
If we say that the house philosophy is based fundamentally on emotionalism, does it make sense to be against QRS's axioms? Be it on 'freedom of will', 'no-self', 'Buddhism' or all spirituality being one thing. For illustration:
St John of Ruysbroeck - Adornment of the Spiritual Marriage wrote: Whosoever wishes to meet Christ as his beloved Bridegroom, and to possess in Him, and with Him, eternal life; he must now, in time, go out to meet Christ at three points or in three ways. The first point is that he shall have God in mind in all things through which we earn eternal life. The second point is that there shall be nothing that he means or loves more than God or even so much as God. And the third point is that he shall with great zeal seek to rest in God, above all creatures and above all God’s gifts, above all the works of virtue and above all feelings that God may infuse into soul and body.

Now grasp this well: whosoever means God must have God present in his mind under some godly attribute; and thereby he should mean only Him Who is the Lord of heaven and earth and all creatures, Who died for him, and Who can, and will, give him eternal bliss. In whatever way or under whatever name we represent God to ourselves, if it be as the Lord over all creatures, that is always right. If we conceive one of the Divine Persons, and in Him the being and the might of the Divine Nature, that is right. If we set God before us as Maintainer, Redeemer, Creator, Ruler; as Bliss, Power, Wisdom, Truth, Goodness, and all this as within the abysmal properties of the Divine Nature, that is right.


Though the names which we give to God are many, the most high Nature of God is a Simplicity which cannot be named by any creature. But because of His incomprehensible nobility and sublimity, which we cannot rightly name nor wholly express, we give Him all these names. This is the way and the manner of apprehension in which we should have God present in our mind; for, to mean God, this is to see God in ghostly wise. And to this intention charity and love also belong; for to know God and to be without charity has no savour, neither does it help or further us. That is why a man should always in all his works stretch towards God with love; Whom, above all things, he aims at and loves. And this is going out to meet God by intention and by love.

HOW WE ACHIEVE SUPERNATURAL SIGHT IN OUR INWARD WORKINGS
Now concerning the first point. Christ says: Behold. Whosoever wishes to see in a supernatural way in his inward exercises must have three things. The first is the light of Divine grace, and this in a more lofty degree than that which we can experience in the outward and active life without earnest inward diligence. The second thing is the casting out of all distracting images and attachments from the heart; so that the man may be free and imageless, released from all attachments, and empty of all creatures. The third thing is a free turning of the will, with a gathering together of all our powers, both bodily and ghostly, cleansed from every inordinate love. Thereby the will flows forth into the unity of God and into the unity of the mind; and thus the rational creature may obtain and possess the most high unity of God in a supernatural manner. For this God has created heaven and earth and everything; and for this reason He became man, and taught us, and lived for our sake, and has Himself become the Way to the unity. And He died in the bonds of love, and has ascended and has opened to us that very unity, in which we may possess eternal bliss.

OF THE RENUNCIATION OF SELF WILL
From this obedience there springs the renunciation of one’s own will and one’s own opinion, for none can submit his own will in all things to the will of another, save the obedient man: though one may obey in outward things and yet remain self-willed.
The forsaking of one’s own will causes a man to live without preference for either this or that, in doing or leaving undone, in those things which are strange and special in the saints, in their precepts and in their practice; but it makes him to live always according to the glory and the commandments of God, and the will of his prelates, and in peace with all men in his neighbourhood, so far as true prudence permits.
By renouncing self-will in doing, in leaving undone, and in suffering, the material and occasion of pride are wholly cast out, and humility is made perfect in the highest degree. And God becomes the Lord of the man’s whole will; and the man’s will is so united with the will of God that he can neither will nor desire in any other way. This man has put off the old man, and has put on the new man, who is renewed and made according to the dearest will of God. Of all such Christ says: Blessed are the poor in spirit—that is to say, those who have renounced self-will—for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.


Now understand this: we find in Christ, according to His Godhead, two kinds of humility.
The first kind is this: that He willed to become man, and took upon Himself that very nature which had been banished and cursed to the bottom of hell, and willed to become one with it according to His personality; so that now any man, either good or evil, can say: Christ, the Son of God, is my brother.
The second kind of humility according to His Godhead consists in this; that He chose a poor maiden, and not a king’s daughter, for His mother, so that a poor maiden should be the mother of God, who is Lord of heaven and earth and all creatures.
And further, we can say of all the works of humility which Christ ever wrought, that they were wrought by God Himself.


Yet here we must take heed to the order of Divine and creaturely things as they are here shown. For God gives His light, and by this light man gives his willing and perfect conversion: and of these two is born a perfect love towards God. And from this love there come forth perfect contrition and purification of conscience. And these arise from the consideration of misdeeds and all that may defile the soul: for when a man loves God he despises himself and all his works. This is the order of every conversion. From it there come true repentance, a perfect sorrow for every evil thing which one has done, and an ardent desire never to sin again and evermore to serve God in humble obedience. Hence too an open confession, without reserve, ambiguity, or excuse; a perfect satisfaction according to the counsel of a prudent priest; and the beginning of virtue and of all good works.
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Russell Parr
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Russell Parr »

He ain't touching the Truth with a 10 foot pole. He fights against it with every inch of his being. No sort of rebuttal whatsoever towards Dan's response regarding inherent existence. He automatically assumes it's "problematic" on the face of it. All he saw was the jabs, and went full apeshit with the insults. Typical, of course.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I had to fork out for a box of tissues and a chocolate eclair for comfort.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

It gets to a point where enough is enough, shouldn't even refer to him (A, the dark one) by name, lest he lead us into his realm of ceaseless repetition and damnation.
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Alex Jacob wrote:With a good deal more 'nuance', which may indeed be a spiritual gift, and a gift of the combination of intelligence and thoughtfulness, I think it would be possible to make something *more* out of the QRS critical position

"What is called the self is a distinction drawn by the mind, the same as anything else."

Explain to me how it's possible to make something more of the above statement than is already obvious.
But I do recognize, and naturally I do assert, that in general terms the QRS position is by brutes and for brutes.

This is what a conversation with a Gfer reduces to: hurling brute insults.
Indeed.
Still, I am speaking of 'valuation' in a wider sense, a sense that extends beyond you and me and our skirmishing.

I disagree with Dan(and Nietzsche) that there can be a war of values. Truth is the *only* thing that can be valued, since untruth(as distinct from truth) is non-existent. One who values anything other than truth doesn't value anything at all.

"God(truth) is love(value), and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."
Leyla Shen
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

Lol

And since truth is belief because it can't be proven, anything goes, right Jupiviv!

Bloody Christians.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dan Rowden »

Russell wrote:He ain't touching the Truth with a 10 foot pole. He fights against it with every inch of his being. No sort of rebuttal whatsoever towards Dan's response regarding inherent existence. He automatically assumes it's "problematic" on the face of it. All he saw was the jabs, and went full apeshit with the insults. Typical, of course.
The thing is, that for Alex, something as simple as an absolute truth of the order of: there are no married bachelors - constitutes one goosestep away from Nazism. That is his paranoia, his neurosis. Seen it all before a million times. That said, I do understand it and think he should in fact express "suspicion". The trouble is that's where he wants to remain because it suits him down to the ground, spiritually and psychologically. He will never untie his knots because he just doesn't want to. He's been increasingly declaring this in his posts; I'm not even sure if he's aware that he's doing it.
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Leyla Shen wrote:And since truth is belief because it can't be proven, anything goes, right Jupiviv!
Any *thing* goes, yes. That's irrefutable, yet unprovable, since all proofs are in it.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

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All proofs are "in" (meaning derived from) A=A, not God.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote: A=A, not God.
You mean the I am that I am god?
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

Which is exactly why many of the proofs for the Christian creator god, for example, have been suitably refuted.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

What am I saying!?

Make that: which is exactly why ALL proofs for a Christian god have been refuted.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:Which is exactly why many of the proofs for the Christian creator god, for example, have been suitably refuted.
Bar one: A = I Am.
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Leyla Shen wrote:All proofs are "in" (meaning derived from) A=A, not God.
"In" != "meaning derived from"

Lern2logic.

Besides, A=A, like 1+1=2 or x^2*x^2=x^4, doesn't provide any meaning in itself.
Last edited by jupiviv on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

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"In" != "meaning derived from"
Oh, sorry. In = In.

Better, ya silly sook!
Lern2logic.
Lol! That's almost as good as truth = belief!
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

Diebert, what's Christian about that, exactly?
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Leyla Shen wrote:
"In" != "meaning derived from"
Oh, sorry. In = In.

Better, ya silly sook!
Explain how something being in x is equivalent to it deriving its meaning from x.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

Besides, A=A, like 1+1=2 or x^2*x^2=x^4, doesn't provide any meaning in itself.
The first is a law, the balance of your examples, mathematical function. The law is a law derived from and for meaning, coherence and non-contradiction.

Explain how truth is the same as belief.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

I mean, really. Are you serious?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:Diebert, what's Christian about that, exactly?
The Christian god is in terms of provability not different from any other god and in this case derives even directly from the Judean one.

The only thing which can be refuted or falsified are statements about a god which contain anything that can be analyzed beyond taking it on authority or faith. The burning bush statement comes not only from a (for Christians and religious Jews) highly authoritative source, it also contains an analytical statement, a reply on the question to describe the nature (name, origin) of this god. This is perhaps the only statement qualifying for falsification. And since that statement follows the law of identity pretty much, it remains valid. Therefore there's no refutation possible. Of course it leads to the hypothesis that not a personal god but existential reality or consciousness itself was being addressed in the story. Leading to the theory religion is the animated version of a philosophical teaching which became bloody Pixar incorporated. Which is not proven either....
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

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The Christian god is in terms of provability not different from any other god and in this case derives even directly from the Judean one.
Yeah, the real meaning of monotheism...
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

(I'll have to look up the burning bush thing before I considering commenting. I missed your post with the link earlier.)
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Leyla Shen wrote:
Besides, A=A, like 1+1=2 or x^2*x^2=x^4, doesn't provide any meaning in itself.
The first is a law, the balance of your examples, mathematical function. The law is a law derived from and for meaning, coherence and non-contradiction.
A=A is no more or less of a law than 1+1=2, and provides as much/as little meaning etc. If you really believe it to be the source of meaning/coherence then you're a moron.
Explain how truth is the same as belief.
Because it cannot be proven to be true.

Or, as Weininger wrote:

If, rather than acknowledging the proposition A = A, I wanted to attempt to refute it, in so doing I would have to make use of logic, i.e., of exactly this proposition. If at some point I did not comply with it, that would mean that my deduction was false. The proposition itself is thus the criterion of truth and falsity, and from the start it is the measure of my deduction, the standard which I work from as soon as I begin to deduce. Therefore, I can at most reject all inferences, and abstain from judgement. Whether I undertook to refute the proposition, or to prove it, in both cases it would already be presupposed in the argumentation, in both cases I would have obtained the result by fraud. The proposition thus remains a thesis that can neither be proven nor disproven. I can trouble myself about it, but am not logically obliged to, for logic culminates precisely in the content of this proposition (and its other two forms of expression, the laws of non-contradiction and excluded middle4, the relative advantages of which, greater or lesser, will not be gone into here). That I cannot escape from this proposition may be of interest to pathological psychology, but it is of no significance for the explanation of the proposition; I cannot escape from various other things, either, e.g., from myself. Thus logic cannot be proven, cannot be derived from something else: Q.E.D.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

A=A is no more or less of a law than 1+1=2, and provides as much/as little meaning etc. If you really believe it to be the source of meaning/coherence then you're a moron
No worries, mate! You stick with your meaning-making god and I'll remain a moron.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

A thing and its meaning(whatever it is said to be) are both in God, which is why "with God all things are possible."
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