Core Dysfunction and what it does

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:51 pm

Dan Rowden wrote:Is Alex incapable of knowing, or unwilling to know?
I'm pretty sure it's the latter. It's clear he hates not only the ideas propounded in this forum, but also the people who do so.
Alex Jacob wrote:I don't think you have earned the right to define 'ignorance'. Nor do I think any one of the QRS has earned the right to define it. I say this in the strongest language and indeed this is the point that I become most biting, most adamant and where I desire to sting: for a batch of fools to appropriate these terms and to assume sagesse is a deep insult to everything that I can name as important and worthy.

I don't think it's beyond Alex's ability to understand the basic truths that are bandied around here, agree with them, agree to disagree with all of the others, and then go away. But Alex won't do so and instead sticks around to insult us with his convoluted, passive-aggressive, pseudo-intellectual posts.

He sees these truths as fatal to what he holds dear, namely his idea of western philosophy and culture. He wouldn't see them as such unless he understood them and their implications at some level. I'm also reasonably certain he understands(to some degree) the infallibility of these truths by mere reasoning, which probably makes him hate them even more. Thus he perceives anyone expounding such truths or anything even resembling them as an enemy, and their reasoning as unfair and "barbaric"(since he can't fault it). So he changes the rules of engagement because as far as he's concerned the enemy isn't playing fair.

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dan Rowden » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:52 pm

You may be right about Alex's level of understanding, but I would suggest it's an hypothesis without evidence - i.e. an instinctual feeling. There's no real, intellectually solid or technically substantive evidence that Alex understands anything of metaphysics or ontology, either from an eastern or western perspective (or how they might be properly coalesced). As far as I can tell all he really "understands" is that lots of people have said lots of things about lots of stuff and anyone who is not aware of everything that lots of people have said lots of times about lots of stuff doesn't know lots.

Pillars of salt and all that...

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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:14 pm

But why did he post for 6 years on a forum whose philosophy and membership he disliked and/or didn't understand? Surely there are e-communities that would accommodate his views. Or is he so petty and vindictive that he can't bury the e-hatchet?

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dan Rowden » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:22 pm

I don't think he's vindictive, in actual fact. I think he really believes he's on a mission from "God" (in his own way).

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:31 pm

Dan Rowden wrote:Wow indeed. What does any of that actually mean, though? The question that appears nigh impossible to answer is this: Is Alex incapable of knowing, or unwilling to know? I can't figure it out.
jupiviv wrote:But why did he post for 6 years on a forum whose philosophy and membership he disliked and/or didn't understand? Surely there are e-communities that would accommodate his views. Or is he so petty and vindictive that he can't bury the e-hatchet?
Let me give some hints based on many years of experience with trying to get it this a bit in focus during my discussions with him.

Behind the glitter and dazzle of Alex lies an emptiness which goes nowhere. The great skill of Mr. Jacob - his art par excellence! - is his ability to point beyond himself. All his movements suggest a source hidden deep within him or arcane secrets hidden inside the world. Man looks and looks - but finds nothing. He exclaims, "I'm a mystery!" And no wonder! Nothing exists there to be found! Alex and his ilk is purely the superficial, whose superficiality so skillfully persuades to the contrary. For he has no depth - there is not one bit, not one tiniest fraction, not even one slither of this fraction of anything other than the superficial. His powers of deception here ultimately originate in him not actually possessing a self, for he's completely selfless. This is not the selflessness of the fully enlightened sage, but that of a child or an animal - that is, of a being who has not yet formed, or lost, reflective consciousness to any significant degree. Having no self, he is able to respond spontaneously to circumstances without all the baggage that comes with existing. He never experiences the need to conform his actions to ethical principles, and this gives him a confidence and an inner glow that is sometimes looked upon enviously by struggling men.

Does anyone recognize the above paraphrasing of a famous text? The confusion I see with some people is that they rarely encountered "Woman" expressing itself so strongly in pseudo-intellectual and expressive language, having such ass-whipping tenacity. You might have never seen it appear wrapped in the philosophical sounding topics and dialogs like this. But you are dealing with a rather pure type, where all the issues are exaggerated, like a flamboyant gay person acting more "womanly" than women themselves, as only men could. This in itself explains the draw to the forum (opposites attracts) as well as the mostly subconscious "feminine" acts of mirroring, nagging, undermining as goal in itself. Not to accomplish anything but to drag everything down to nothing at all. Purpose is derived from that for himself and the appearance of a large "ego" arises which is nothing but a phantom, derived from the environment. The oppositional stance this forum promotes as signs of individuality is being abused by this form of psychological nihilism, this will to foggy unconscious sentiment sharing.

It's fascinating but one has to realize this works like a blueprint for recognizing similar situations in ones own life. Try this view for a while, see the truth in it for yourself and in your self.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dan Rowden » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:01 pm

Hahaha, that was fucking hilarious, Diebert, but also brilliantly insightful.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Alex Jacob » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:29 pm

Charming ... and also 'terrifying'. It is the pretty darned terrible machina Weiningerae that, when the going gets rough, is rolled out from a secret underground cavern by sturdy intellectual warriors. It causes one to immediately lose control of one's bowels. It appears and pronounces like the ghost of Hamlet's father. All it needs is sound effects!
Ni ange, ni bête

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:44 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:The confusion I see with some people is that they rarely encountered "Woman" expressing itself so strongly in pseudo-intellectual and expressive language, having such ass-whipping tenacity.
The feminine as the intellectual! But still, I don't think Alex is entirely feminine, so allow me to paraphrase from another famous text:

The Alex is irreligious in the widest sense. Religiousness is not something beside and outside other things: it is the grounding of everything, the foundation on which everything else is built. The Alex is unjustly regarded as prosaic, simply because he is not enthusiastic and does not long for a primal source of being. Any genuine internal culture—whatever an individual regards as truth, so that there may be culture for him, truth for him, values for him—is deeply founded in belief and requires piety. Nor is piety something that only reveals itself in mysticism and religion: it also lies at the heart of any science and any skepticism, of anything that a human being seriously means within himself. There is no doubt that piety can express itself in a variety of ways: passion and clear-headedness, high enthusiasm and profound seriousness are the two most noble forms in which it appears. The Alex is never in raptures, but nor is he really sober. He is not ecstatic, but nor is he dry. He is not intoxicated either by base or by elevated things, and he is neither an alcoholic nor capable of higher ecstasies, but this does not make him cool and still leaves him a long way from calm and persuasive reasoning. His heat perspires and his coldness steams. If he tries to reach the heights of boundless enthusiasm he never gets beyond histrionics, but if he decides to remain within the narrowest consciousness of the intellect he still does not refrain from noisily rattling his chains. And even though he hardly feels impelled to kiss the entire world, he does not molest it any the less.

All separation and all embracing, all severity and all love, all detachment and all fervency, every true and genuine emotion of the human heart, be it serious or joyous, is ultimately based on piety. Religion is the positing of the self and of the world together with the self. Therefore belief need not always relate to a metaphysical entity, as it does with the genius, the most pious individual. It may concern something empirical and seem to be fully absorbed in this: ultimately, it is one and the same belief in a being, a value, a truth, an absolute, a god.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Pye » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:02 am

Leyla [from another thread] writes:
It's amazing how steeped in everyone's conscousness Alex is.
I would be taking a serious look at this the other way around. Seriously.

That's how ressentiment works in a climate of 'fraternity terror.' It poses its powerlessness against a fraternity of so-called power, and draws it down to its own concerns. The rhetorical 'you' have walked right into this self-fulfilling dynamic and helped Alex concretize his persecution. Judeo-Christianity 101. I am rather amazed that those who wish to vanquish Alex's plaints here have neglected to employ their most powerful weapon of all - ignoring. But Alex is working this dynamic so effectively against the so-called 'fraternity,' that the rhetorical you cannot manage even that anymore without self-fulfilling the thesis of his discontent.

Jesus H. Christ, Dan - either ban him or let him post. This power-dangling back and forth has become a measurably disgusting display of how effectively ressentiment can upend a whole world of values - outside and beside the point of any truth.

Reply to Alex's plaints, or don't. But every time [rhetorical] you make him the subject, you create the very fraternity terror he's trying to insist belongs to this place. It's becoming a fetid circus of the blind bumping into the blind . . . .

Genius Forum 'dead'? Ogoodgod, it's long past that. What's happening now, in my estimation, is the subsequent rotting - rotting that's busily exposing the layers of its own pathology . . . .

can't get any oxygen here anymore; functioning on my last breath . . . .

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:23 am

Pye wrote:Reply to Alex's plaints, or don't. But every time [rhetorical] you make him the subject, you create the very fraternity terror he's trying to insist belongs to this place. It's becoming a fetid circus of the blind bumping into the blind . . .
Just ignoring it will not change that tune, it would be explained as the fraternal silent treatment or something. Banning has been on the table a few times and yet, yet, the remains here illustrate so much, so beautifully as well. Sweet, sweet decadence and late late forum discussions.
Genius Forum 'dead'? Ogoodgod, it's long past that. What's happening now, in my estimation, is the subsequent rotting - rotting that's busily exposing the layers of its own pathology . . .
And yet you've joined, do you always go where the heat is? : -) ... But always good to see you chime in Pye!

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Pye » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:51 am

Diebert writes: And yet you've joined . . .
2006 was a 'long' time ago, eh? I, too, recall much more substantive times . . . .

Dear, endlessly resuscitating Diebert, I think you would miss it most of all. These founders, I would think, owe you a tremendous debt of gratitude.

All things must pass. Truth shall always presence itself, even without its most ardent, internet foot-soldiers . . . .

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Pye » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:20 am

btw,
Just ignoring it will not change that tune, it would be explained as the fraternal silent treatment or something.
Well, that's just it about ressentiment, isn't it? Gets you coming or going.

I would like to say here, from my own GF afterlife (so to speak :)), how much I have appreciated the appearance of Dennis here. It was his blend of existential-zen openings and always-ever embedded-in's that drew me back to these written dialogues. Dennis, who received 2 violently flowery death threats from 2 regular posters; Dennis, who created new openings with his terse verse that seemed to drive most others to violent distraction. My hat's off to you, mate, for adorning the dialogue with some of the best, most truthful zen-existentialism. I'd have been dead here some time ago without your also-endless cheer for the opening, the possibilities. Here's to this and all future clearings . . . .

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Alex Jacob » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:42 am

Pye wrote:That's how ressentiment works in a climate of 'fraternity terror.' It poses its powerlessness against a fraternity of so-called power, and draws it down to its own concerns. The rhetorical 'you' have walked right into this self-fulfilling dynamic and helped Alex concretize his persecution. Judeo-Christianity 101. I am rather amazed that those who wish to vanquish Alex's plaints here have neglected to employ their most powerful weapon of all - ignoring. But Alex is working this dynamic so effectively against the so-called 'fraternity,' that the rhetorical you cannot manage even that anymore without self-fulfilling the thesis of his discontent.
I am not 'working this dynamic', this dynamic is part-and-parcel of the basic group of formulations, and specifically of the metaphysic and philosophy of Kevin and David. You are hallucinating, or projecting, some notions of 'powerlessness' that draws [a fraternity] down to its own concerns. Your statement is a pathologizing act but this is par for the course, generally, with you. I disown any such intentions of efforts. And yet I do what I do and describe it in detail and openly. The use of a catch-all term---another sort of pathologizing---as Judeo-Christian 101---is another level of subterfuge. Own it for yourself, if you wish, but I don't accept it.
Genius Forum 'dead'? Ogoodgod, it's long past that. What's happening now, in my estimation, is the subsequent rotting - rotting that's busily exposing the layers of its own pathology . . . .
This 'life-and'death' drama is, it really does seem to me, pretty absurd no matter how you look at it. If you-all have 'died' in your philosophical, spiritual, emotional or intellectual lives, that is really your problem to solve. But in no sense do I feel AT ALL that I have either died or dying nor have putrified. (The histrionics of forum opening and forum closing is simple silliness, in my view). I feel very good about everything that I write here. I have no qualms nor regrets except in smallish areas. I do admit that it at the very least 'interesting' to watch all the contortions people go through in relation to my ideas but it is not that that I am interested in, in the end. I am concerned about idea-pathways that lead to 'living currents' where genuine productive life can occur. Really it is paths from death-realms to realms of life and light, though that sounds grandiose I suppose. And this forum, in general, has served a real function for me in this movement.
Dennis, who received 2 violently flowery death threats from 2 regular posters; Dennis, who created new openings with his terse verse that seemed to drive most others to violent distraction. My hat's off to you, mate, for adorning the dialogue with some of the best, most truthful zen-existentialism. I'd have been dead here some time ago without your also-endless cheer for the opening, the possibilities. Here's to this and all future clearings . . . .
Dennis, the prancing zennish gnome, Dennis the unsung menace! ;-)

Pye you are classic! (Who, I am bursting at the seams to know was the second? You mean I have competition?! Up ressentiment! We have WORK to perform!
...rotting that's busily exposing the layers of its own pathology.
Ooooh. What 'pathology' is that exactly? How would yo describe it?
Ni ange, ni bête

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:42 am

Pye wrote:
Diebert writes: And yet you've joined . . .
2006 was a 'long' time ago, eh? I, too, recall much more substantive times . . . .
Joined the power-dangling & ressentiment I meant of course. No nostalgia here! Then again:
Dear, endlessly resuscitating Diebert, I think you would miss it most of all.
It might surprise you but I'd miss only the forum format. The medium itself, like sniffing old vinyl! :-)

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:50 am

Who's Pye? He(?) sounds like Darth Alex's rebel apprentice.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Alex Jacob » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:29 am

"A winsome girl stood on a green hill overlooking a long plain on which boisterous men jousted. A fraternal war it might have been. Or just one in an endless series of skirmishes. The girl noticed that one little fellow was continuously knocked around by the 'big bullies' on the field of fraternal conflict. So battered was he that he didn't even speak in full sentences but had evolved a sort of groovy zenspeak, a weird Taoist hippity-hoppity poetry filled with 'possibilities' and 'reactivity components' and even a 'shithouse rat' or two. Our Idealistic Lovely, laying aside her Sartre novel, true to her feminine breast, felt deep empathy for the stuttering Zenster, and descending from her hilltop like Snow White with the train of supporting Nature twittering behind her, determinedly pushes her way through the field of raging battle as the astonished warriors exchanged baffled looks. And our motherly damsel pushed right through to the Warbling Zennite---and planted a huge, juicy kiss right on his lips! This really really happened folks!"
How the story ends:

a) They make the Warbling Zennite their King, bend their knees before him, and give him power to arbitrate all future struggles, or

b) They all turn with unimpeded fury and tear the zengeek to pieces.
________________________________

Part Two coming soon is entitled: 'And what did they do with the delightful damsel?!'
Ni ange, ni bête

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dennis Mahar » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:10 am

I 'get' Pye, and I'm certain Diebert and Laird 'get' Pye in the same way:

a quality of participation which generates enthusiasm in its performance
a kind of invigorating vitality.
bright spark.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dennis Mahar » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:56 am

Browsing thru' the definitive guide 'Playing Trickster for Dummies'.
there is, emphatically stressed, a pointed direction to resist the lure of resorting to mock, goad, insult, avoidance of overt attention seeking, avoiding being a target.

The Trickster act is grounded in subtlety.

Back to the drawing board lad.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dan Rowden » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:35 am

Alex Jacob wrote:I do admit that it at the very least 'interesting' to watch all the contortions people go through in relation to my ideas but it is not that that I am interested in, in the end.
Contortions? Yes, constant requests that you offer something intellectually substantive are "contortions".

Please note my previous post requesting/requiring you do that in a specific way is not a passing fancy on my part. Ignore it and you don't get to post anymore. I know it's terribly naughty of me to do that but that's how it's going to be. I'm not interested in allowing you to merely vacuously accuse everyone of being ignorant cultists in 346 different ways.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:38 am

Dennis Mahar wrote: The Trickster act is grounded in subtlety.

Back to the drawing board lad.

The act of posting on GF itself is attachment, one act of subtlety would be to avoid acknowledging this.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dennis Mahar » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:33 am

The word 'attachment'. You don't understand that word.

You use it like 'a millstone around the neck' or 'a straitjacket'.

clean the act up with the gestalt of 'unencumbered'

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:55 am

You can't constantly go back to anything, whether it is a person or an online activity, without that being an attachment.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Bobo » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:12 pm

Alex Jacob wrote:You are right, Bobo, about the correspondence in concept between O y G's 'mass-man' and the QRS defining of woman, at least in some broad way. In that sense QRS have noble intentions which cannot be denied. But their flaws fuck everything up, in my view.
It seems that Ortega y Gasset doesn't tackle philosophy directly in his Revolt of the Masses.
Far from this being the case, the post-war period has converted the man of science into a new social pariah. And note that I am referring to physicists, chemists, biologists, not to philosophers. Philosophy needs neither protection, attention nor sympathy from the masses. It maintains its character of complete inutility, and thereby frees itself from all subservience to the average man. It recognises itself as essentially problematic, and joyously accepts its free destiny as a bird of the air, without asking anybody to take it into account, without recommending or defending itself If it does really turn out to the advantage of anyone, it rejoices from simple human sympathy; but does not live on the profit it brings to others, neither anticipating it nor hoping for it. How can it lay claim to being taken seriously by anyone if it starts off by doubting its own existence, if it lives only in the measure in which it combats itself, deprives itself of life? Let us, then, leave out of the question philosophy, which is an adventure of another order.
But his 'barbarian' seems to steam from a lower source than QRS's Woman:
Excerpts from The Identity of Liberation in American Latin Though - Latin American Historicism and The Phenomenology of Leopold Zea wrote:Since a people has a history only if it has the capacity to think on itself and to exercise that capacity, and since "other" people (the non-European) do not exercise such capacity, then Ortega y Gasset argues that they do not have a history.

Regarding America then, Ortega y Gasset believes that the continent is just a projection of Europe (in the double sense project and extension). America is thus modern in the most extreme sense of the word. As America, it is pure novelty, a total beginning.

One of the ironies of Ortega y Gasset's argument on America is that what he leaves unsaid about the mestizo America when he wear the mantle of Eurocentered European, namely, that [which] it is not worth talking about America because of its backwardness, is precisely what Europeans- as Ortega y Gasset recognized- have said about Spain and the Spaniard Ortega y Gasset. Zea tells the anecdote about the French philosopher who at meeting in Geneva responds to Ortega y Gasset's questions by simply exclaiming "I do not understand his French!".

The point on view that sees Spanish as a "stammering" language and Spain as a barbarian country (that is, as a country that stammers when speaking the "civilized" languages) was one of Ortega y Gasset's lifelong preoccupations and frustations. On the other hand, he asserts the necessity to begin always with one's circumstance, in this case, with one's culture, In Ortega y Gasset's case, it is Spain and its Mediterranean culture. Ortega y Gasset puts it in his own peculiar way: "The individual cannot orient himself in the Universe except through his race because he is submerged within it as the drop in the passing cloud." "Europe begins when the Germanic peoples enter fully the unitary organism of the historical world. Africa is then born as the not Europe... Mediterranean culure ceases being a pure reality and is reduced to a more or a less Germanization, once Italy, France, and Spain are Germanized."

However, one must pause and reflect on Ortega y Gasset's characterizations of African Spain, and of the Spain that is the product of the Latin mestizaje, as a "wild animal" that does not let Spaniards become fully integrated with their Germanic heritage. Ortega y Gasset despairs because the Spaniard denies such Germanic inheritance. Zea does not quite bring himself to say wheter this is Ortega y Gasset making the marginalizing Europeans speak or it is Ortega Y Gasset the marginalizing European speaking. I think it is both. Futhermore, Ortega y Gasset's sophisticated thinking should not seduce us away from realizing that a call for the integration of the "Germanic" European and the "passionate" Spaniard carries with it superficial stereotypes about cultural groups. The "passionate" Spaniard also has within him the wild beast. In that way does Ortega y Gasset refer to the African in "him", that is, in the Spaniard.

We would deceive ourselves regarding Ortega y Gasset's racist statements if we were to say that Ortega Y Gasset is not calling for a rejection of the "wild beast" in him and its replacement with the "sentimental and meditative" German (also within him). Otherwise, how would one think of the person who does not carry within his or her culture the "German" element? The reader can follow the implication. The pure non-European is simply a wild beast.
Last edited by Bobo on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dennis Mahar » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:20 pm

Disclosing the being of human being as a possibility for human being,
unencumbered isn't a survival option.
Your view of attachment and detachment is a survival option.

In a story the Romans could grab you, throw you down a saltmine chained to a couple of toothless, bearded hags and feed you thin soup.
Its the situation that can be an encumberance dictated by preferences, aversions, prejudices.

Can you see a possibility of unencumbered there?

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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:49 pm

Depends on whether you consider that forced situation as differing from having a desire for whoring or journalism or horseriding. Being "chained" to an experience of body is another situation that is "forced", but I don't think needing to piss is the same as constantly returning to a website. One can remain non-attached while chained, yet not while continuously catering to an attachment (a friend, a wife, etc). You'd have to elaborate on "attachment" from your view. ( In advance, "whiney girl" to whoever thinks personal 'views' on words such as enlightenment aren't relevant to a conversation in language)

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