Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Leyla Shen
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Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Leyla Shen »

"Nothing forces anyone to enjoy except the superego. The superego is the imperative of jouissance - Enjoy!" -- Lacan; On Feminine Sexuality

Edit (1) 14/04/2013:
Although jouissance can be translated as "enjoyment," translators of Lacan often leave it in French in order to render palpable its excessive, properly traumatic character: we are not dealing with simple pleasures, but with a violent intrusion that brings more pain than pleasure. This is how we usually perceive the Freudian superego, the cruel and sadistic ethical agency which bombards us with impossible demands and then gleefully observes our failure to meet them. No wonder, then, that Lacan posited an equation between jouissance and superego: to enjoy is not a matter of following one's spontaneous tendencies; it is rather something we do as a kind of weird and twisted ethical duty.
***End Edit (1)***
This simple, although unexpected, thesis encapsulates the way Lacan reads Freud. Freud uses three distinct terms for the agency that propels the subject to act ethically: he speaks of ideal ego (Idealich), ego-ideal (Ich-Ideal) and superego (Ueberich). He tends to identify these three terms: he often uses the expression Ichideal oder Idealich (Ego-Ideal or ideal ego), and the title of the chapter III of his booklet The Ego and the Id) is "Ego and Superego (Ego-Ideal)". Lacan introduces a precise distinction between these three terms: the "ideal ego" stands for the idealized self-image of the subject (the way I would like to be, I would like others to see me); the Ego-Ideal is the agency whose gaze I try to impress with my ego image, the big Other who watches over me and propels me to give my best, the ideal I try to follow and actualize; and the superego is this same agency in its revengeful, sadistic, punishing, aspect. The underlying structuring principle of these three terms is clearly Lacan's triad Imaginary-Symbolic-Real: ideal ego is imaginary, what Lacan calls the "small other," the idealized double-image of my ego; Ego-Ideal is symbolic, the point of my symbolic identification, the point in the big Other from which I observe (and judge) myself; superego is real, the cruel and insatiable agency which bombards me with impossible demands and which mocks my failed attempts to meet them, the agency in the eyes of which I am all the more guilty, the more I try to suppress my "sinful" strivings and meet its demands. The old cynical Stalinist motto about the accused at the show trials who professed their innocence ("the more they are innocent, the more they deserve to be shot") is superego at its purest.
Last edited by Leyla Shen on Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

The old cynical Stalinist motto about the accused at the show trials who professed their innocence ("the more they are innocent, the more they deserve to be shot") is superego at its purest.
Interesting that this phrase came actually from a single man, a dramatist, stage director, and poet: Bertolt Brecht. An even more perfect illustration then!
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Leyla Shen »

I never knew that!

Didn't think much of either of them myself, really.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Yeah, just looked him up but Brecht supported the East German government during the uprising in 1953 in East Germany. He was at the time completely behind the Socialist Unity Party of Germany. And didn't think much of communists elsewhere either: the party was everything. I'd guess his support for Soviet intervention during the uprising and the quote made it all Stalinesque, drama and events blending into motto.

But interesting passage nevertheless. You should add some.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Orenholt »

It doesn't make sense to say that the ego ideal is all about the good in people (or that it exists). There is no inherent "good" aspect of people, it's all selfishness and most of it is subconscious. Everything from stealing televisions to helping old ladies cross the street is all done in the name of self satisfaction. The only difference is that helping an old lady cross the street might involve empathy or simply some kind of desire to be proud of one's self. Don't be fooled. Empathy is a selfish mechanism too. It's an instinct built into us for survival as a species. As for feelings like guilt, they're purely reactionary. If you do steal a television and then you see the family who you stole from being sad or you think about them being sad about the break in then you might feel empathy for them and thus regret or guilt. There's also the learned factor of what's right and wrong. Maybe a child isn't very empathetic or doesn't know that stealing other children's toys is bad. When they are taught that it's bad to do that then they gain a conscience about it because they think about the consequences of their actions like possibly being spanked or being put in time out.

The main point is that there is no inherent factor in the human brain that tells us what's right and wrong social behavior. It has to be learned through experience of either internal or external consequences.

Edited for accuracy. -__-
Last edited by Orenholt on Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Leyla Shen »

Jesus fucking Christ.

She needs some serious discipline, Dan.

You really should give her the boot.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Robert »

Hahaha

She's just bored, and boring. She'll move on soon enough when something elsewhere takes her interest.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Orenholt »

Sorry I meant to say ego ideal instead of super ego. -_-'
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Orenholt wrote: Empathy is a selfish mechanism too. It's an instinct built into us for survival as a species.
You mean to say here that the species as a whole is now "selfish". But sneakily you have thereby created another type of self (the species) and therefore the former meaning of selfishness (advantage to the individual human) has shifted into another thing altogether. You need to understand this fundamental flaw in they way you develop your thinking. Better to say that at every level there appear self-promoting forces, to affirm and maintain a continuation. But the levels do conflict and it certainly doesn't make sense to call someone sharing everything with everyone just as "selfish" as someone not sharing anything with anyone. Because when you say "it's all selfishness", with that the word "selfishness" looses meaning. You could just as well say "it is all love" or "it is all good". It can be argued but it seems more destructive to meaning than anything else. Unless that's your goal of course. Is that your goal to get rid of meanings and words?
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Leyla Shen »

I'm sure there's something Zennish to fighting thin air, but this is just ridiculous.

Off with her head!
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Kunga »

Don't feel bad Orenholt. At least they cared enough to give you a bit of their time and energy....unlike someone that is ignored like a total loser.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Orenholt »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Orenholt wrote: Empathy is a selfish mechanism too. It's an instinct built into us for survival as a species.
You mean to say here that the species as a whole is now "selfish". But sneakily you have thereby created another type of self (the species) and therefore the former meaning of selfishness (advantage to the individual human) has shifted into another thing altogether. You need to understand this fundamental flaw in they way you develop your thinking. Better to say that at every level there appear self-promoting forces, to affirm and maintain a continuation. But the levels do conflict and it certainly doesn't make sense to call someone sharing everything with everyone just as "selfish" as someone not sharing anything with anyone. Because when you say "it's all selfishness", with that the word "selfishness" looses meaning. You could just as well say "it is all love" or "it is all good". It can be argued but it seems more destructive to meaning than anything else. Unless that's your goal of course. Is that your goal to get rid of meanings and words?

The reason we're interested in survival "as a species" is because we're too dumb and weak to survive on our own most of the time.
My goal is to show that all human behavior is in self interest and that "selfishness" can sometimes be a good thing.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

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Orenholt wrote:My goal is to show that all human behavior is in self interest and that "selfishness" can sometimes be a good thing.
How does the majority of human population not already resemble this?
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Orenholt »

Russell wrote:
Orenholt wrote:My goal is to show that all human behavior is in self interest and that "selfishness" can sometimes be a good thing.
How does the majority of human population not already resemble this?
The majority may resemble it quite well but certain people might think that certain actions are NOT in self interest. Such as becoming enlightened.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Orenholt makes a fantastic point.

Is altruism I-making.

A survival strategy.
assessing the situation, reveals a set of options where altruism gets an advantage.
a formula for a winning personality.

at least Orenholt is looking at machinery.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Dan Rowden »

I more or less agree with Orenholt's point about altruism, but I can't help but think her original response to Leyla's post was something of a non sequiter. Could be me, however.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Leyla Shen »

She exhibits an aversion to the term superego, is totally blind to it, which makes me wonder................

It's like she has an automatic safety mechanism. Every time you say the word "superego" -- bounce! off! off! off! she goes into space, yes -- yes she does, Precious!

She doesn't fully engage with either the term or the concept. Consequently. it's mashed in somehow and all summed up as "ego".

Mother Teresa was the quintessential altruist. Also superego at its purest.
Last edited by Leyla Shen on Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Leyla Shen »

Orenholt:
The main point is that there is no inherent factor in the human brain that tells us what's right and wrong social behavior. It has to be learned through experience of either internal or external consequences.
And what follows from this "main point"?
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Leyla Shen »

Even slipped on it (the word "superego") in true Freudian fashion, initially. (:
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Orenholt »

Leyla Shen wrote:
And what follows from this "main point"?

That the ego ideal doesn't exist and that it's a silly concept.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Getoriks »

Zizek, as in Slavoj Žižek?
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Dennis Mahar »

female sexuality.
a desire to be desired by other.
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:female sexuality.
a desire to be desired by other.
Are you saying then, that men that desire to be desired by women are females ?
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Leyla Shen »

That the ego ideal doesn't exist and that it's a silly concept.
Are you saying that people don't have images they strive to live up to?

The Symbolic Order (the realm of the Ego Ideal) is language; signifier and signified.

Are you planning to reach your goal/s without language?
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Re: Zizek on Lacan's Triad & Interpretation of Freud

Post by Leyla Shen »

Getoriks wrote:Zizek, as in Slavoj Žižek?
Yes. But without the fancy accents... (:
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