the universe doesnt have to be infinite

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Perhaps we need address the question: what does it mean for a thing to be finite?

Perhaps a tautology? They both have an end or boundary. The universe is not a thing and therefore also not finite. But not because it contains a definable amount of things (including "infinite amount") since that would make the universe a thing again, or: assembly. A term which seems to tie in to the origin of the term "thing". Personally I'd go with "container" as better term for both object and thing. Container of one or more attributes - which are limitations by design.

[Kunga]

Finite=A begining and an end
Infinite=Without a begining or end.

Dualistic thinking

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Finite=A begining and an end
Infinite=Without a begining or end.

Dualistic thinking

The attribute "without..." is limiting.
The attribute "dualistic..." is dualistic thinking

As always, better first learn straight thinking before entertaining "non-dual" thought.

[oxytocinNA]

..for there to be nothing else.

Space-time could be infinite and there still could be more.

Maybe i'm confused but i think the reasons given for why the totality has to be infinite are not all that convincing.

"the universe doesnt have to be infinite for there to be nothing else."

OK I will take this in another direction. First up - the word nothing. In the context of existence - the word is useless. It is an impossibility. So to start with the statement/proposition is faulty. So what the faulty statement (faulty do to the use of the word "nothing" in context with "existence") does do, is force one to guess as to how you are using/defining the word "universe".

[oxytocinNA]

duplicate erased

[Bobo]

Perhaps we need address the question: what does it mean for a thing to be finite?

A thing is Finite if it does not relate only to itself, a thing is Infinite if it relates only to itself.

If the totality is infinite everything else - not the totality - is finite.
If something else is infinite there is no totality.

From this a thing that is infinite can be the totality or not.


We can dig it further:

If the infinite relates only to itself, and there are no other things which it isn't, there are no finite things.
If there are things which are finite there is no infinite.


I can reformulate the definition as:

A thing is Finite if it relates to itself, to some things and not to other things, a thing is Infinite if it relates to itself and to all other things.

If there are finite things, and if there is the infinite, then the infinite is the totality.

So what is the infinite?
Can the Infinite be a thing which prevents things from relating to other things?

[Pincho Paxton]

Most of the problems are with the Universe not being infinite. If the Universe has an end then behind that end is something that is impossible.

That's the simple problem. The Universe has to be infinite, it's impossible for it not to be infinite.

You can't have nothing at the end. Nothing doesn't exist.

[Dennis Mahar]

infinite means unconditioned.
oh dear, I've conditioned it.
geddit?

infinite/finite is an identity-relation,
of a conventional nature.
empty.

not that.

a shift in perception.
non-conceptual.

it's all a trick of consciousness.

[Wesson]

Imagine-

A track.

It's broken somewhere in between itself & another. Infinite wise it goes on forever,.



HHHHHHHHHHHHHH/HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Wesson]

Being-/

Dubious & dubious Wise!

[Pincho Paxton]

There are a lot of strange examples of infinite on here. what's wrong with the dictionary version...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/infinite

What's wrong with thinking in particles?

Particles that go on forever. That's infinite to me.

[Dennis Mahar]

what's a particle?
a name?

there has to be something constituted in particle that gives rise to the name particle.
if other stuff makes up 'particle' then there's no such thing as 'particle',
'particle' must be other stuff.
what's the other stuff?


similarly 'forever',
what is constituted in forever,
what is forever comprised of?

[Pincho Paxton]

what's a particle?
a name?

there has to be something constituted in particle that gives rise to the name particle.
if other stuff makes up 'particle' then there's no such thing as 'particle',
'particle' must be other stuff.
what's the other stuff?


similarly 'forever',
what is constituted in forever,
what is forever comprised of?

If the universe is infinite then a particle is made from particles. there's no problem with that. They just get smaller. You can make them so small that they fold inside out. It's all easy to figure out.

[oxytocinNA]

There are a lot of strange examples of infinite on here. what's wrong with the dictionary version...

The problem with communication! If the terms - definitions/context are not verified/agreed on - it is pointless to discuss. Everyone starts interpreting. This responsibility for T - D/C lay with the author of the thread.

[Dennis Mahar]

Pincho seems to be saying Cosmos exists intrinsically in itself independent of language/concept.

self caused, self defined, self identical.

'a thing is what it is'

a self perpetuating machine infinite in duration.

he forgets a thing receives identity from what it is not.

his theory is not independent of language/concept.

there are 4 options:

a thing is what it is
a thing is what it is not
neither
both

none explain,
ineffable silence.

[Pincho Paxton]

The universe is made from infinite zero particles. 1 + -1 = 0 They add up to zero. Their scale adds up to zero, their number adds up to zero. They are infinite, but add up to zero. Their physics fold inside out so that they add up to zero. The folding of their physics adds up to zero. Their shape adds up to zero, because it cancels itself out. Convex cancels out concave.

The zero particle is infinite. It adds up to zero. Overlapping zero particles create everything else.

[Wesson]

what's a particle?
a name?

there has to be something constituted in particle that gives rise to the name particle.
if other stuff makes up 'particle' then there's no such thing as 'particle',
'particle' must be other stuff.
what's the other stuff?


similarly 'forever',
what is constituted in forever,
what is forever comprised of?

ANEX: A Universal Comprehension!

[Wesson]

I had the same concept when I was born...

Then, my brother was born!,!


Universality is A=A. In my beak on or theory Theoretically Speaking....A Consciousness Survived After The Big/Bang Theory, which led to other beings,!


Take-
Total fractions. Total-parts. And...
The conscience is As I say, left with nowhere to Go! Without, consciousness No communication. So, the Universe is in Play, over-Laterally due to impart to what " Pincho-Paxton" says,!.....

[Wesson]

I agree with Dennis, Y you can't take apart what's already there,!,,,,Save for judgement of Equalization,,,,,,.

[Dennis Mahar]

This and What.

The passing parade of objects appearing (this) (sense/conception)

is that Reality?

the What is inconceivable.

the What can't be conceptualised.

If the What is conceptualised it's a belief.

[Pincho Paxton]

Look at it this way...

The Universe has no intelligence. So to build the Universe is the easiest thing you can imagine. The easiest way to make the universe is infinite particles bumping together. They have to make every object in the universe, because they are infinite, and they are bumping together.

It's like infinite monkeys on a typewriter. they write every story that is possible to write.

Infinite particles create every thing possible.

But what is every thing possible?

Every thing possible is a fractal of the touching particles.

Touching particles have to stack in a certain way.

That shape is nature.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Love doing this one.

"The universe has no intelligence"..said the universe.


"If the what is conceptualized it is a belief"

If the what is conceptualized it is a conceptualization, no one can deny that, which means he's been beaten.

[Dennis Mahar]

The easiest way to make the universe is infinite particles bumping together. They have to make every object in the universe, because they are infinite, and they are bumping together.

direct perception 'sees' finite,
every thing arises, ceases, endures.
causes/conditions.
relationship, relatedness, relativity.
dependent arising.
this ceases, that ceases.
nothing is permanent and because all things are conditional, all is empty of self-nature.

infinite particle

this is your 'simple substance' or monad or build of the cosmos.

that which can't be broken down in to constituent elements.

you are giving it permanency, self-nature, absolute identity.
effectively, you are naming 'infinite particle' God.
correct?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

A thing is Finite if it does not relate only to itself, a thing is Infinite if it relates only to itself.

Are you saying that a 'finitude' (thing) relates to itself and to something else? Relating to self is another word for inherent by the way. You are saying things are inherently existing then?

It would be way better to see it in terms of 'finitudes' only relating to everything else (it is the sum of relations) and the infinite as relating to nothing (emptiness) and one could perhaps say the infinite relates only to itself. But that would mean existence exists inherently which might lead to problems though in conceiving of it.

[Pincho Paxton]

Love doing this one.

"The universe has no intelligence"..said the universe.


"If the what is conceptualized it is a belief"

If the what is conceptualized it is a conceptualization, no one can deny that, which means he's been beaten.

I'm not the Universe. I'm local to a position in the Universe. My location has intelligence. The Universe contains locations that have intelligence, but those locations are far away from the building of the Universe. My location had to be built before it became intelligent. You must try to follow the rules of realistic thinking. Cause happens before effect. Particles happen before intelligence arises. You can recreate the whole thing in a computer. Particles to life, not the other way around. Maybe it is complicated for you. Try not to make things complicated for yourself.