How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Jamesh
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How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Jamesh »

Time to stir up the pot again.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/ - lots of decent self-help type articles on many topics.

This one appealed to me. I've come to realise that I'm fooling myself about being ever the type that will Cross the Road as per David's essay. I've never really been convinced that anyone ever does actually become egoless.

How to Build a Stronger Ego

January 20th, 2010 by Steve Pavlina

There’s a notion that’s been spread around the spiritual side of the self-help field that suggests one of our primary aims in life should be ego-less enlightenment, a state where we achieve near-perfect inner peace, where we’re one with everything but attached to nothing, and where nothing in the physical world can knock us off balance.

This creates some personal challenges for me because whenever I write about anything remotely spiritual in nature (and sometimes even when I don’t), some readers assume I’m one of the guys promoting this same sort of ideal. Then they question why my behavior doesn’t seem consistent with it.

My behavior isn’t consistent with the pursuit of ego-less enlightenment because I have no interest in that path. If other people find value in it, that’s their choice, but I find other paths of development to be much more practical and fulfilling, both for myself and for others I’ve observed over the years.

Do you really want to kill your ego?

Do you even want to weaken it?

In this case I’m using the word ego to refer to your physical world identity, mainly your personality and sense of self. I’m not referring to ego in the sense of being arrogant, such as when people say, “So-and-so has a big ego.”

Many spiritual seekers claim it’s wise to weaken the ego as much as possible. The ones who really go all out with this idea give away all their possessions, shave their heads, and spend their days meditating and doing chores, striving to burn away any last bits of attachment to their previous identities.

But most people who claim to pursue this path have mixed feelings about it, so they hold themselves in a state of limbo. They can’t get themselves to progress on the ego-empowering path, so they don’t take strong steps to advance in their careers or make much more money — that would be too ego-based for their spiritual beliefs. On the other hand, they can’t get themselves to relinquish all attachment to their identities and their stuff, so they strive to get by with a sense of minimalism. But they’re never really satisfied living in this halfway space, so quite often their “spiritual practice” devolves into attacking others they believe are more ego-based than they are. It temporarily makes them feel better about themselves.

Often the people stuck in this middle place maintain careers with pseudo-spiritual associations such as being a healer, massage therapist, yoga instructor, tarot card reader, astrologer, etc., but the one thing they usually have in common is that they’re borderline broke most of the time.

This is a very half-assed approach to enlightenment. From what I’ve observed in those who attempt it, it just doesn’t work. It leads to long-term stagnation. You can find whole communities of bloggers like this, and they seem to spend much of their time writing posts that express frustration and judgment at everything they dislike about the world. Meanwhile, they do nothing tangible to make the world any better.

You may want to question whether or not you really want to weaken your ego. Is that truly a wise idea? Sure it’s a popular piece of religious dogma, but is it really how you want to live? Does it even make sense?

Building a stronger ego

Instead of weakening your ego, let me suggest an alternative approach that works really well for me, one that will allow you to avoid stagnation… not to mention bitter blogger syndrome.

Build an even stronger ego.

Your ego is your character, an important part of your human avatar. If you try to weaken your ego, you’re simply weakening your character. Do you really want to devolve into a sidelined NPC (non-player character)? Or would you rather build out a really strong character with well-defined attributes?

How does it serve you — or anyone else — to play the game of life with a weak character? Are you really doing much good by checking out from life and cocooning yourself in a mini-monastery?

Instead of trying to weaken your ego, consider what good you might achieve with it instead. How would you like to develop your character during your time here on earth?

Let me offer you some ideas to get you thinking…

Character-building ideas

Honesty – See how honest and open you can make your character. Be honest in your dealings with others. Stop pretending and hiding who you are. Share yourself openly with the world.

Courage – Continually push yourself to face your fears instead of shrinking from them. This will give your character more options.
Exploration – Experiment. Learn by trial and error. Step into the unknown and learn by doing. Develop an ego that loves to dive in and explore new things.

Service – Tune your ego in the direction of serving others, such that the stronger your ego becomes, the more you push yourself to help people. Make service to others part of your identity.

Acceptance – When you accept yourself as having a strong ego, you’ll be more willing to accept other strong people into your life as well instead of feeling you need to attack the strong in order to justify your own weakness.

Discipline – Develop an ego that identifies itself with good habits like regular exercise and solid productivity.

Connection – Develop your social skills, so you can connect with others easily. Learn how to surround your ego with social support that helps to refine your positive character qualities while chipping away at your unwanted attributes.

Notice that since these are character qualities, they can’t be taken away from you. You may lose your possessions, job, relationships, etc., but your character qualities are yours to keep.

Intelligence, not enlightenment

My gold standard for conscious living isn’t enlightenment. It’s intelligence.

In this case I define intelligent living as having three main components:

1) Developing a progressively more accurate model of reality and living in accordance with it.

If you’re living intelligently, then as a general rule, you should find that life becomes progressively easier and your results get measurably better as your mental model of reality gradually becomes more accurate.
When you encounter a spiritual teacher who can’t pay his/her electric bill, I’d say something is off.

2) Deliberately engineering your social environment to actively support you in fulfilling your desires.

We humans are very social creatures. Your environment plays a huge role in your development. Unfortunately most of us find ourselves with rather unsupportive social circles when we try to stretch and grow. We have the power to change that, however. We can drop the connections that don’t support our continued development and invite new connections that do. This is a significant growth accelerator.
It isn’t intelligent to remain stuck with an unsupportive social circle. Place your loyalty not with your pity posse but with your highest vision of yourself, and surround yourself with people who can help you support that vision. The first step is to say no to connections with those people who reject your vision. Hang out with people who will help you develop a strong, positive, service-oriented ego, not a frustrated one.
Don’t become obsessed with trying to transcend your feelings towards people who consistently bring you down. Just drop the nay-sayers and move on. Saying “I’m done with you” once can be more effective than having to say “I forgive you” a dozen more times. This creates the space where new connections can come into your life, the kind that will have you saying, “Thank you so much!” dozens of times instead.
When you’re living intelligently, you won’t settle for social connections that drain you. You’ll consciously build ample social support and resources for pursuing your goals and fulfilling your desires. You will notice that over time, your life becomes increasingly abundant.

3) Getting stronger.

Intelligence seeks its own improvement.

If you’re on a path of intelligent living, you should find your character growing increasingly capable. You should see yourself progressively building courage and overcoming more and more fears such as fear of rejection, fear of failure, fear of embarrassment, and fear of success. You’ll learn to stop giving your power away and take your foot off the brake pedal.

Engage with life

Checking out from life and trying to pursue ego-less enlightenment may be popular in certain spiritual circles, but it’s not a path I recommend, especially after witnessing the long-term results of many of the practitioners, not to mention the behind-the-scenes inconsistencies of certain proponents. It’s a path that can feel comforting at first because it gives you permission to avoid many of your fears instead of facing them. You can shrink away from life instead of boldly pushing yourself. You don’t have to stand out much. You can simply sit still and quiet your mind. There are many benefits to meditation of course, but don’t let the practice turn into escapism.
I think you’ll find it much more beneficial to relate to life on the basis of ego development as opposed to ego destruction.
Ego destruction is slow suicide. It’s yet another version of giving your power away. As long as “become ego-less” remains on your spiritual to-do list, you can use it to distract yourself from facing the real life challenges that scare you… like stretching yourself to go out and make a real difference in the world instead of escaping into the land of make-believe enlightenment.

Having a strong ego is not in conflict with inner peace. Inner peace doesn’t mean being passive. You can be quite active and engaged with life and still feel very peaceful and centered on your path.

Part of the reason ego-less living has so many people pushing it is that it’s a control strategy. People with strong egos are harder to control. If a religious leader wants to be surrounded by a bunch of loyal followers, it’s much easier to do that while encouraging all the followers to shed their egos. Then standing up to the leader can be called out as an act of ego and therefore something that the culture itself will repress, thereby keeping the leader in charge. However, this structure stunts the leader’s growth as well if the leader must pretend to be upholding the same ego-less standard that’s being preached to the followers.

Own your character

Again, having a strong ego doesn’t mean putting yourself above others. But it’s perfectly fine to take complete ownership of your character and express your pleasure with what you’ve developed so far. That’s much better than being secretly ashamed of your character, isn’t it?
There are limitless ways to grow your character, and where you take your character’s development is for you to decide. But when you catch yourself criticizing others for the choices they’ve made, consider that perhaps you’re giving your power away to them because you aren’t satisfied with the character development choices you’ve been making. Stop fussing over other people’s egos, and direct your attention back on your own to see where you need to improve.

When done consciously it can be fun to develop your character. You can shop from a vast menu of new skills to learn and character attributes to develop. Do you want to build a character who’s very brave? Very physical? Very social? Very musical? The choice is yours. You can even dress up your avatar with a little extra bling if you’d like.

When I blogged about fashion a few months ago, I saw comments from a few people on Twitter and Facebook to the effect of, Well, Steve… this is a rather ego-driven pursuit. And I thought, Well of course it is! Is that supposed to be a bad thing???

I’ve been writing this post from my hotel room in Puerto Rico. I’m here for a weeklong leadership retreat for the Transformational Leadership Council. When I got in late last night, I exchanged hugs with about a dozen TLC members in the lobby. Several of them gushed over how much they liked my new hair. By making a small change to my avatar, it created a fun shift in the way people relate to me, even people who already know me. But prior to making this change, I was one of those guys who could criticize others for fussing over their appearance. It took me a while to realize that I was giving my power away to others so as to avoid taking full ownership of my own avatar’s appearance.
It’s very easy to give our power away and use it to feed criticism of others. It’s much more challenging — but a lot more beneficial — to channel our power into creating what we desire, including the myriad ways we can develop our characters’ potential.

Are you taking full ownership of your character? Where do you catch yourself criticizing others for being too ego-driven? What does that say about the character attributes you’ve been refusing to develop in yourself? Are you bothered by people who are super confident, very focused, very attractive, financially abundant, successful in relationships, super healthy, etc? Stop giving your power away to other people’s egos, and reclaim 100% responsibility for developing those aspects of your own character. It will take time to be sure, but you won’t get there faster by succumbing to denial.

Even though your truest identity is the consciousness behind your ego and not the ego itself, that doesn’t invalidate the reasons for building a strong and capable ego as your primary means of interacting with the physical world. An underdeveloped ego won’t do your consciousness much good anyway; a weak ego will only limit the range of experiences that are possible for you, thereby stunting your conscious growth. So don’t be so quick to buy into the notion that ego-less enlightenment is an intelligent spiritual ideal. Consider that building a stronger ego may be the more intelligent, heart-centered choice for you.

================================================================

This dude (whose humour and style remind me of Tumbleman), even though in the "self-help" domain has at least done the right thing in releasing all his copyrights

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2010/1 ... opyrights/

Could it be Tumbleman?

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/0 ... conscious/

"The difference between these two groups is that the first group has settled for the default mental operating system installed by their upbringing and social conditioning. Call it Human OS 1.0. They accepted whatever programming they initially received. The second group, however, challenges themselves to continuously improve upon that initial programming, embarking on a lifelong quest to design a more intelligent mental operating system. And they succeed. So while group one is stuck with a shabby and outdated mental OS, group two continues to upgrade its version, enjoying compounding benefits year after year. It doesn’t matter whether they’re currently using Human OS 1.1 or Human OS 7.0 — it’s the process of frequent upgrading that matters most, not the particular version number being used"
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Dan Rowden
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Dan Rowden »

James, are you at all aware that this guy has no idea whatsoever what enlightenment is and how "egolessness" relates to it? Seriously. You'd think delusion was irrelevant to everything.
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Jamesh
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Jamesh »

Well, that just means I have no idea either - even after X years. This guy is just presenting the Alex viewpoint in a simple way.

(PS. I've a noticable tendency to get gungho about novel-to-me positions for a few days then forget about them. Novelty is my primary provider of happiness).
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Talking Ass
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Talking Ass »

I don't want to appear an ego-driven dick---though such claims against me HAVE been made---but Alex really scavenged his 'philosophy' from me, and I am the 'Avatar of Simplicity' if truth be told.

Interesting that this 'strong ego' approach sets its goals on almost exactly those of the 'egoless'. The question seems to be how one relates to the 'ego' and employs it. This implies a 'superego' which observes and directs.

I don't know what you assholes achieve either with your egofullness or egolessness but in my case my major goal of 2013 is that of controlling my erections! You have no idea how embarrassing it is for me---giving a talk for example in a crowded auditorium---to have my physical, ego-structure so overtly assert itself against my very own controlling superego.
fiat mihi
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »


Hi Jamez, it's not a bad blog. But Steve's issue sits in this sentence:
  • In this case I’m using the word ego to refer to your physical world identity, mainly your personality and sense of self.
Which is more or less the Freudian definition mixed with the linguistic self (reference to a sense). But the traditions Steve seems to question are generally talking about concepts on the boundary of self, its causes, its lack of any permanence and so on. The confusion arises sometimes because for example the Buddhist path appears in some cases to have consequences for how one might value things or what kind of life path one decides to take next. For example someone might loose interest in becoming rich or buying new things. But I think it's quite rare for people to give up personality or identity unless they go for a cult or have other psychological issues with nihilism or something. It's used that way at times I guess. These days the philosophy is often selected to affirm the general condition of the customer. And Alex might get another erection reading this.
Could it be Tumbleman?
No, he was actually working in the movies and not in computers that much. He was mentioned in IMDB but would have to dig to find it again. Not sure if he'd like that information out here either. While he and I had long feisty discussions, it was not all what it seemed.
(PS. I've a noticable tendency to get gungho about novel-to-me positions for a few days then forget about them. Novelty is my primary provider of happiness).
Ha, I liked that remark! Novelty is indeed a drug. The internet a loyal pimp. It's in itself an interesting topic, this whole 24h news cycle big business thrives on it. Meaningless news works still as news!
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Talking Ass
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Talking Ass »

Diebert wrote: But the traditions Steve seems to question are generally talking about concepts on the boundary of self, its causes, its lack of any permanence and so on. The confusion arises sometimes because for example the Buddhist path appears in some cases to have consequences for how one might value things or what kind of life path one decides to take next.
Unless I am terribly mistaken the concept of elimination of 'ego' within a religious and metaphysical context of the cultures of the Indian subcontinent, as it was understood then and is still understood today, had all to do with, essentially, eliminating the very incarnated self from its desire to be and exist in this very world. Therefor, you make no home in this world, you begin to dismantle your home. Sadhana is the practice of a discipline of disappearance.

If Dan is enlightened I am ... Seabiscuit!
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Dennis Mahar »

and so novelty is familiarity.

'a stronger ego' is to be in control of the narrative.

Aristotle's causality:
4 causes.

The first of the four causes he calls the causa materialis, and this refers to the material
used to make an object
The second is the causa formalis, and this is the shape that the material is formed into.
The third is the causa finalis, and this relates to what the end purpose of the object will be, in other words the human significance
of its making. fourth is the causa efficiens, and this is what brings about the effect on the material.

of the meaning of causa.
described how it belongs to the verb cadere which means ‘to fall’, so it is ‘that which
brings it about that something falls out as a result in such and such a way.’

to control the narrative for ego is to have the result fall the way of ego.

ego exists in a Story about separation.
meaning maker.
Last edited by Dennis Mahar on Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Talking Ass wrote:Unless I am terribly mistaken the concept of elimination of 'ego' within a religious and metaphysical context of the cultures of the Indian subcontinent, as it was understood then and is still understood today, had all to do with, essentially, eliminating the very incarnated self from its desire to be and exist in this very world. Therefor, you make no home in this world, you begin to dismantle your home. Sadhana is the practice of a discipline of disappearance.
Ego is in the end all about control no matter if it's controlled driving off the cliff or avoiding it. You already named it "a discipline" and here you see the terrible mistake: discipline to get rid of discipline? As for how this worked out on the Indian subcontinent and the whole body of scholarly work which rose out of that, one has to assume first that the understandings were being understood by all the academics and yogi's who formed that body. Every large body of culture so far showed sooner or later clear signs of decline and decadence, the same taste of nihilism. You can taste it in Hinduism, Buddhism just as pungent as in most of Christianity (and with "Christianity" as more civilizational than religious).

The realization that one is out of control and that ego is false has never called for any disappearance. I think what you see happening are just people, fully realized or not, practicing whatever they were driven to in their context. Not because of any realization and not despite of it. It might be true though that many realizations only could happen after some kind of organized fundamental challenge to get to the fundamental questions. But all of those practices become quickly predictably and formulaic. It happened all over again in many civilizations and cults. Wisdom cannot be caught in any scheme.
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Wisdom cannot be caught in any scheme
a narrative (winning formula) is seen to be 'like a rainbow in the summer sky'
falls out of an infinite array of causes,
therefore is empty.

emptiness, being the narrative of 'no narrative'
as a narrative,
collapses under itself,

rainbow disappears,
'tasting sky'
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Talking Ass
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Talking Ass »

*Sigh*

Talking Ass finds himself, yet again, down among the acid-eaters...
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You hide your money to keep it out of reach of your girlfriend else the money would be out of your control and lost.

therefore causality is that to which you are indebted.
it 'owns' you.
cowering in terror.

you don't understand this because of massive comprehension failure.
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Is talking ass alex?


And why over complicate "egolessness"? Don't talk about it from the perspective of other people talking about it, they were probably making the same mistake themselves.

Talk about it from the perspective of your own perspective, direct experience, the only way.

"Egoless" is the recognition that there is no ego, or "me", there are only constantly changing phenomena.

How can there be a "me" if "me" was an appearance that changed and is now a different appearance? It clearly isn't the same "me", there clearly is no "me", unless you want to try and define it by continuity which doesn't make sense.

People confuse this whole situation by talking about it like there is an ego which one must rid themselves of, wtf, there was never an ego, there never has been an ego.

When someone gets angry and says "I want it this way" people might say he is being egotistical, but in reality he never had an ego.

Thoughts and actions that arise which are based on attachment to self are called egotistical, "overcoming the ego" at best could be described as having thoughts and actions which are in recognition that there is no ego, "this is not me", it is only a changing experience.

Truly it is dependent on the fundamental understanding of the cycle of death and rebirth- when your body dies but experience continues, was that body your Self? Clearly not, now you have a new false "me!".
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Non-attachment = "egolessness"

non-attachment= Non-bias observation

Non-bias observation = Look! Obviously "this am I not!"

Experience is eternal.
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Talking Ass »

In those Indian schools, Diebert, one surrenders one's will and intentions to a guru-master who assumes the role of deity, but in every instance I am aware of there is always some technique or practice. Even surrendering to that guiding figure is a 'technique'. And in one school of raja-yoga the 'technique' that is offered is described as a literal reversal of the processes by which we became incarnated into this sphere of flesh-life. Clearly a metaphysic is represented, and clearly a group of techniques for 'demateriization'. I suppose that one would have to be utterly fed up with terrestrial, flesh-encased life and all its limitations and tragedy to be capable and ready for such dematerialization. The Buddhist school and the Zen school are still derived from the same general idea and it is evident in the basic assumptions of Christianity as you are aware. Unless I am terribly mistaken 'enlightenment' and 'liberation' is the beginning of the end of the desire to be here.

The egolessness trip as practiced by Westerners and the imitation of the yoga-Buddhism-Zen schools is based on the same pattern, the same basic formula. But it generally seems to fuck them up and confuse them and become 'absurd'. It seems to me that the basic idea runs counter to the core Occidental understanding of spiritual life which on the West has been handled by the Catholic Church through European history. The 'technique' of that 'school' is a form of training but not elimination of the ego. Since the highest spiritual activity is 'charity' in all its depth of meaning, the understanding of 'liberation' is not the same.
fiat mihi
Dennis Mahar
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Dennis Mahar »

who wrote that.

fiat wiki?
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Talking Ass you simply don't know of the topic you refer to and hence don't understand it, being and non-being, extinction is the choice of non-being due to being being suffering.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Talking Ass wrote:... in every instance I am aware of there is always some technique or practice. Even surrendering to that guiding figure is a 'technique'. .... Unless I am terribly mistaken 'enlightenment' and 'liberation' is the beginning of the end of the desire to be here.
It's ego all the way then. A while ago I already outlined the the core Buddhist notion of "craving not to be" along the other main possible desires. What makes the ego desires to undo itself? Many factors, Alex, embedded in culture sometimes, some personal disposition or inclination linked to various factors in history, imprinting, environment and so on. Some people just decide not to be anymore or diminish functionality or participation. I guess it's tempting to tie it to some core belief system but I don't think it's that easy, it's asking for troubles in the details when delving further.
The egolessness trip as practiced by Westerners and the imitation of the yoga-Buddhism-Zen schools is based on the same pattern, the same basic formula. But it generally seems to fuck them up and confuse them and become 'absurd'.
What is taken is exactly what is desired in these cases. A consumer culture which is absurdity incarnated all by itself, the notion that happiness and success, even thoughts, can be purchased or borrowed somewhere else.
It seems to me that the basic idea runs counter to the core Occidental understanding of spiritual life which on the West has been handled by the Catholic Church through European history. The 'technique' of that 'school' is a form of training but not elimination of the ego. Since the highest spiritual activity is 'charity' in all its depth of meaning, the understanding of 'liberation' is not the same.
It's not entirely clear to me if that really encapsulates the core "Occidental" understanding and "that school" or if it's even practiced in that way in Christendom, Europe or "West". It seems more like something you've found, a path you're chasing yourself. Of course you'll find it then everywhere at some point under the rocks of many spiritual understandings if it has any real depth. That's how our mind leads a way.
ROB

Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by ROB »

Hello!
I've been reading y+mx. You can kiss my arse! The general population doesn't care what you broods breed!
Lego-my-ego-/
A~rse
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Talking Ass wrote: And in one school of raja-yoga the 'technique' that is offered is described as a literal reversal of the processes by which we became incarnated into this sphere of flesh-life. Clearly a metaphysic is represented
In addition to what I already replied so far I'd like to ask if you're really offering one school which nobody ever heard of within Rāja, which is itself one of the nine schools of thought which form the body of "Indian thought" as a good example for the case you are making? I think you need to do better than that. Obviously returning to any "unborn" or "pure" state would be a source of recurrent misunderstandings everywhere. It's related to the Buddhist notion of unbinding, "the foremost ease".

But let me explain something about the paradoxical nature of self or ego. For this example I'll take chairs just to make it as blunt as possible. Three conversations are happening:

"Is that a chair over there? I need a chair"
"What?"

"Hi, how are you? It was a long journey."
"I'm fine, thanks. Do take a seat and have a cup of tea."

"How many chairs could fit in this room theoretically?"
"You are crazy."


The question of that last conversation is rather pointless because it's impossible without defining in detail the size and form of the object in mind to make a meaningful calculation. But if "seats" are meant than the floor might do. People could sit on top of each other using a tiny pillow and the whole discussion becomes vague and revolving what is meant by sitting or if the persons need to remain healthy. In short: insanity!
The first question suffers from the same issue. There's a need to sit and "chair" only happens in the context of need, or actually the context of a broader conversation (or calculation). But this conversation isn't going very well. Only the middle conversation has some fluency and naturalness. I guess some chair was presented in the process. This is in a nutshell the problem of self.

What happens when someone starts believing in the existence of the illusionary self? A certain reinforcement happens and this could help in the development of certain activity. It's like a feedback loop. What then happens when the reinforcement stopped? It all returns to normal. Does that mean the reinforcement was "wrong". No, it might have had a purpose and a cause. What certain types of philosophy are addressing is the difficulty to let go of the illusion after its appearance and disappearance ran its natural course. The forcing at that stage is called ignorance and is at times labeled suffering because of the needless confusion and emotion it keeps causing and spreading.
Last edited by Diebert van Rhijn on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Talking Ass
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Talking Ass »

Diebert wrote:It's not entirely clear to me if that really encapsulates the core "Occidental" understanding and "that school" or if it's even practiced in that way in Christendom, Europe or "West". It seems more like something you've found, a path you're chasing yourself. Of course you'll find it then everywhere at some point under the rocks of many spiritual understandings if it has any real depth. That's how our mind leads a way.
Is everything 'entirely clear' to you? I mean, is there no area yet still open to discovery? In the most general sense, and through religious and philosophical formulations that arise out of the context of European Catholicism, Westerners train and use their ego and they do not eliminate it.

To say that the ego-annihilation strategies of the East (Indian subcontinent) are not tied to or produced by the metaphysical systems of those cultures seems to me quite erroneous but it might be interesting to hear you defend the idea.

And I would not say it [European Catholicism and its influence in forming a general Western praxis] is something I have 'found' but is a core and basic 'thing' about the West. I do understand that the reference itself, the mere mention of European Catholicism and Judaism/Christianity is a very sour note in the ears of many who read here and especially those invested in 'enlightenment' philosophies and methods and who necessarily must negate aspects of their own selves, history, cultural influence, etc. Yet I am interested more in facts than fantasies and all this is pretty basic knowledge.
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Talking Ass »

Diebert wrote:What happens when someone starts believe in the existence of the illusionary self? A certain reinforcement happens and this could help in the development of certain activity. It's like a feedback loop. What then happens when the reinforcement stopped? It all returns to normal. Does that mean the reinforcement was "wrong". No, it might have had a purpose and a cause. What certain types of philosophy are addressing is the difficulty to let go of the illusion after its appearance and disappearance ran its natural course. The forcing at that stage is called ignorance and is at times labeled suffering because of the needless confusion and emotion it keeps causing and spreading.
So THAT'S it! That is what explains our 62 year old and our 19 year old? A feedback loop! Whoever would have guessed? Well, I'll leave a chair out on the porch and the light on and if ever they desire to sit down they are certainly welcome to.
Last edited by Talking Ass on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Diebert wrote:It's not entirely clear to me ..
Alex wrote:Is everything 'entirely clear' to you?
Uhmm, obviously not as I just said it was not. You should breath a bit deeper and hide your erection.
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Talking Ass wrote:
Diebert wrote:What happens when someone starts believe in the existence of the illusionary self? A certain reinforcement happens and this could help in the development of certain activity. It's like a feedback loop. What then happens when the reinforcement stopped? It all returns to normal. Does that mean the reinforcement was "wrong". No, it might have had a purpose and a cause. What certain types of philosophy are addressing is the difficulty to let go of the illusion after its appearance and disappearance ran its natural course. The forcing at that stage is called ignorance and is at times labeled suffering because of the needless confusion and emotion it keeps causing and spreading.
So THAT'S it! That is what explains our 62 year old and our 19 year old? A feedback loop! Whoever would have guessed? Well, I'll leave a chair out on the porch and the light on and if ever they desire to sit down they are certainly welcome to.
You should phrase your objections a bit more clearly perhaps. You mean to say you don't get it?
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
It seems to me that the basic idea runs counter to the core Occidental understanding of spiritual life which on the West has been handled by the Catholic Church through European history. The 'technique' of that 'school' is a form of training but not elimination of the ego. Since the highest spiritual activity is 'charity' in all its depth of meaning, the understanding of 'liberation' is not the same.
It's not entirely clear to me if that really encapsulates the core "Occidental" understanding and "that school" or if it's even practiced in that way in Christendom, Europe or "West". It seems more like something you've found, a path you're chasing yourself. Of course you'll find it then everywhere at some point under the rocks of many spiritual understandings if it has any real depth. That's how our mind leads a way.
To clarify with that I meant the "highest spiritual activity" you called "charity". Not the addressing of ego (which was often performed by servitude and surrender to Mary, God and Church nevertheless).
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Re: How to Build a Stronger Ego - Steve Pavlina

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The idea of charity (caritas: unexpected and usually undeserved good fortune) seems to be a cornerstone of Catholic philosophy. Schools, hospitals, that sort of thing. And at the base of it is a very strongly defined 'personalism': that the person is the relevant and important thing. And that explains Western notions of humanism, human rights, and undergirds jurisprudence, etc. Again, the ego is, say, harnessed and directed but not annihilated. Instead of the 'ego' being a self-willed entity (the idea of rebellion is pretty acute in the West, obviously), the ego is brought into service. It seems a pretty dominant question and issue for Westerners.
In addition to what I already replied so far I'd like to ask if you're really offering one school which nobody ever heard of within Rāja, which is itself one of the nine schools of thought which form the body of "Indian thought" as a good example for the case you are making? I think you need to do better than that. Obviously returning to any "unborn" or "pure" state would be a source of recurrent misunderstandings everywhere. It's related to the Buddhist notion of unbinding, "the foremost ease".
What I referred to as Raja, and techniques for reversal of the processes that have led to incarnation, is precisely the yoga school of Paramahansa Yogananda. His Bhagavad-Gita translation-interpretation sums it up: yoga as a science of reversal of incarnation. A deliberate, thought-out process of beginning to disappear from this plane of existence. But all the yoga schools that I am aware of all seem predicated on one basic idea: life is an illusory experience, is suffering, and can be brought to an end by 'reabsorption'.
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