Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:03 pm

deflecting again.

You are not me and I am not you.

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:25 pm

Stare at a wall, I will stare at a wall, how is our consciousness then differing?

Block of the senses, then how do we differ?

We have thought, moods, all relatively the same, we are part of the same world, neither of us with any control over what is going on.

Whether the world is more real or illusory, think of it from the outside perspective, the universe, the world, is typing this, thinking, interacting amongst itself, it is a phenomena, don't be bias because your experiencing it, it contains within it's scope all of our thoughts and whatever intelligence.

Dennis Mahar
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:33 pm

You are not me and I am not you.

confirm please without the babble.

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:38 pm

Dennis is not John, they are particular illusions, so that's correct, but what is "you" or "I"? You've never given an answer.

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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:41 pm

Dennis is not John
thankyou.
its true.

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:44 pm

But you are not Dennis!

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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:44 pm

That is clear

Dennis Mahar
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:58 pm

Its true I am Dennis
Its true I am not Dennis

equally true OK?

I can't give myself essence
I can't give myself non-existence

correct?

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:41 pm

Again, what is "you" this is needed before you can approach this, wouldn't you say the only characteristic of "you" is consciousness/experience?

If you know that a perceived end to such experience is nothing more then an imagination based on illusions, then you should agree that consciousness is permanent and hence there is a characteristic for what "you" are.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:52 pm

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:If you know that a perceived end to such experience is nothing more then an imagination based on illusions, then you should agree that consciousness is permanent and hence there is a characteristic for what "you" are.
Tentatively. One is distinguishing that one is distinguishing as long as one is distinguishing. Indistinguishable from perception and therefore constant only with perception.

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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:18 pm

That went right over my head. Do you agree perception/experience is constant? Unaffected by what's experienced,

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:34 pm

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:That went right over my head. Do you agree perception/experience is constant? Unaffected by what's experienced,
Do you ever sleep? You seem always on. But to answer your question, perception is constant during perception. It's unaffected in the sense that perception equals what's being experienced. It couldn't be anything else. But there cannot be other being or permanence for the experience beyond that.

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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:45 pm

Gave up responsibilities and I'm always sleeping haha, yeah, that's the end, what do you seek? What is everyone seeking? If I knew, or if there is something to seek, I would go get it instead of just living to pass time

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Alex T. Jacob
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:46 pm

I had to go down to Cali and here I am. Lying on a hotel bed just after 7 hearing the street vendors rolling out their little carts on steel wheels, the sound of the garbage truck, and in direct view of the clock tower of the Cathedral on the Plaza Caicedo. 7:15. Yesterday I found a copy of Roberto Bolano's Los Detectives Salvajes and began to read it. His narrative style is one that employs little classical description and is all his odd form of narrative summary. It is quite 'easy' to write that way, really. But it seems like cheating in some way! And he is a very successful writer (though now dead, having died quite young).

I am now going to get up, shave, shower, and walk down to the panaderia Los Aragoneses for a 'croissant' and cafe con leche. Since all of this is a direct product of my mind I am choosing now that, 'miraculously', I will find there an attractive and intelligent woman, with emphasis on the intelligent, who is reading the same book. But, I am setting it up that she will have the 1996 first edition (whereas mine is 2006 and the tenth or so), but she won't know about that or care and when I mention it she will offer to trade. And we will meet and we will talk about Bolano and about other Latin American writers. Oh and she is also a writer. She is also someone floating over the rooftops of reality looking down on it, looking in to it. She will wear a silver ring on her right middle finger with a small round and intensely blue lapis lazuli.

Or perhaps it will turn out, on my way to the cafe, that I will decide to instead 'produce' a male person. Women are so complicated, or we get so interwoven in projected complication. Maybe it is best to materialize a male person? I mean, I am already exploiting one woman, 'trickling down wealth' and getting sex in exchange. I hope with this change I don't meet some freakshow on wheels transvestite or something! But I will report back in a few hours.

(Btw, as I was writin this a kestrel hawk landed on the very top of the cathedral's crucifix and then flew off again. And the rich tenor who leads the church choir resoundingly began to sing accompanied by organ. The church bells are ringing.)
I can't go on. I'll go on.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:12 pm

Sound of the garbage truck?!

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:15 pm

I wish I was there, clearly not enough to be there... woe at our existence, beauty and mystery, other forms of woe as they are forms of desire, we are so lost within ourself

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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Pye » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:40 am

Seeker, I'm not giving primacy to one thing over another (matter/mind); not dualizing them; not placing one ascendant over the other.
Seeker writes: You have only had a few fleeting illusory thoughts, completely forgetting how deeply ignorant you are, then assumed that the objects you see somehow correlate to a world independent of seeing! How did you jump here? Seriously do you even have a reason? You, like everyone else, is assuming consciousness is a result of the physical world, when instead there is no physical world outside of consciousness, what is seen.
This here is a good example of the disingenuousness I speak of with regard to solipsistic tendencies. I already gave you what you wanted (did you miss it?)
Pye wrote: Is it impossible to exceed our own instrumentation when measuring the world? Sure.
But you tell me "there is no physical world outside of consciousness, what is seen."
There's a what.
It's being "seen."
One cannot make your statements coherent without performing the same jesuitical trick that you are insisting upon: that "what" does not actually have existence. But it's not possible to talk/think about nothing. There is only existence.

Consciousness is always consciousness-of. It always takes for itself an object, or it does not appear. World and mind rise together. But with solipsistic tendencies like these, one only admits to self-consciousness (world-only-in-my-mind). Being conscious of the self is not a bad thing until it hauls off and negates the world that gave rise to it. And this particularly baffles me in persons who insist upon the buddhist dictate of no-self. You will not find me beating that drum here; quite the opposite.

But I guess you end-run the no-self by assuming an entity-in-itself called 'consciousness' that precedes anything to be conscious-of, does not rise from existence, but precedes it, exceeds it, and does not distinguish itself in the various creatures in which it appears; belongs one and the same to all of them. Now, I'm going to go brush my teeth, so I don't get cavities from all this god-searching sweetness and light. For you are indeed looking for and insisting upon an in-itself - an inherently standing, independent-of-world entity, i.e. god. Consciousness itself is your god. You believe there is consciousness-itself.

Like many of this ilk, you've found your balm, it gives you peace, you want others to have it, too.

Consciousness is a result of existence. When you cease making a straw dog out of the "physical" and drawing a definitive line between existence (your 'physical') and being conscious of it, well, then you will finally get off your slippery solipsistic slope.

And you'll find in you the spiritual everywhere and in every thing, rather than performing these spiritually nihilistic hat tricks on existence.

Because there is, after all, only existence. Consciousness has to rise from it in order to be. And it can't appear without things to become conscious-of.

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Kunga
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Kunga » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:02 am

(I just found this...((sorry Pye))...don't mean to butt in ) :

http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/old ... he_sun.htm

Pye
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Pye » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:37 am

No apology necessary, Kunga. Looks like a pretty good butt to me :)

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Alex T. Jacob
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:08 am

Well, there was no girl there reading Los Detectives Salvajes. There was a threesome of señoras who were drinking coffee after mass at La Iglesia San Judas. And really just a bunch of rather unattractive people. Oddly enough I kept looking around to see if there WERE a woman reading the same book (it has a red and yellow cover illustrated with a detail from the 1997 painting "The Billy Boys" by Jack Vettriano). I ordered coffee, croissants, sat and read my book, sipped coffee.

And then something really weird happened.

I thought I was on the verge of fainting. My perception of the world shifted unpleasantly. My ears started to ring. My breathing accelerated. Very suddenly it was like all the color went out of the world or the world went 'flat'. Monotone and dimensionless. Then I heard a really strange buzzing sound that was yet a vibration that pulsed through my body like a low frequency vibration from a low-rider's car. I realized---I actually heard a voice or was it the voice of my own thinking that explained?---that everything in the world of our projections will always appear 'flat' and colorless when we see it 'spiritually' and 'essentially'. And that was what happened. I looked at all the objects of the world, the faces of the old ladies, their hands, the counter-tops, the walls painted in glossy white, the street and the trees along La Avenida Sexta, and everything was devoid of internal energy, or as if it was enveloped in a thin fog that blanched out the colors. And the Voice told me that was 'the key to perception of the illusory world of projected dreams'.

But when I looked at the book, the goddamned Roberto Bolano book with the bright red and yellow cover and the three strange figures in the illustration, it was the only thing that glowed with its own light. I then understood that I was NOT dreaming it and that it was, permit me to say it like this, an implant: a visitor if you will. It had fallen into my hands for a reason. A message, a messenger, a 'charged metaphor'.

Everything was too strangely still. Frozen in time or in slow motion.

And then I saw her.

A little girl, a pretty little Latina with pigtails and a skipping rope. She was outside on the cracked concrete and she was singing some child's refrain. And she glowed with a very bright internal energy! When she noticed me staring at her she stopped and smiled and then set down her skipping rope and walked over to my table. I was trembling uncontrollably, I cant say why, and while there was nothing dark or dangerous about her (nothing 'demonic' or predatorial) I was by this time in a very strange trance-like state. I was in a world I did not really understand and I had the sense, an inner knowing, that it was a dangerous world. No, not dangerous, more like awesome. Death, life, time, color, the swirl of everything, a world of ever-shifting energy, significantly 'serpentine' is the only way I can think to describe it.

She came up to my table and looked straight at me. Her eyes glowed with the energy of pure consciousness and it was like luminous fingers reaching down deep inside of me. She 'hooked' me with her eyes.

---Me puedes regalar un pedacito de tu croissant?---she asked very sweetly and with exaggerated Latin politeness.

And I knew that if I said yes and gave it to her that nothing would be the same for me, ever.

There is more, much more. Since this morning---what? four hours?---I have lived events of about a month. I'll tell it as it occurred.
I can't go on. I'll go on.

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Alex T. Jacob
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:40 am

Do Dutch garbage trucks make no noise?
I can't go on. I'll go on.

Pye
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Pye » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:45 am

Dennis writes: get off the bong son.
sounds more mushroomy to me ;)

(and a little no-offense haha to you, Seeker.)

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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:05 am

As delightful as John's expression is.

he has to see that you can't have ultimate reality without conventional reality.
and,
you can't have conventional reality without ultimate reality.

dependently arisen.

the exclusion or negation of one in favour of the other doesn't 'get it'.

walking down the middle 'gets it'.

Process and Becoming is your thing Pye isn't it?

That being, this comes to be,
from the arising of that, this arises.
That being absent, this is not,
from the cessation of that, this ceases.

a valid observation.
logical and empirically tested and proven.

What it means is the situation has an access for wisdom to enact.

drip feeding needy girls with regular but small infusions of money keeps them on their backs more often than they need to be. confucius say.

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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:43 am

Pye

"Consciousness is always consciousness-of. It always takes for itself an object, or it does not appear. World and mind rise together."

I'm aware that consciousness is dependent, consciousness is a collection of experiences, without those experiences consciousness does not arise, it does not exist in itself, there is nothing permanent about it's status as the experiences are always changing, flowing, but the change is permanent. Experience is permanent and consciousness is not effected/ended by those experiences.

"Being conscious of "it"', what is it? Consciousness is made up of perception, sensation, experience in general, why do you assume those experiences are experiences of something external to consciousness? The "physical" you are talking about, matter, light, world, etc, is actually only referring to these sensory experiences correct?

These things are as real as they are ever going to get, but they are of an imaginative essence, they are not independent of experience and experience is not a result of the objects or world, the world is contained only within experience.

Neither you nor I understand how consciousness comes about, or if asking a question regarding it's beginning is anything more than an abstract imagination, but I can tell you with a guarantee that it is not a result of the body or world experienced, that logic is completely flawed as the body and world exist only as sensations.

Your understanding is that our perception of world, all our experiences of world, arise with consciousness, but you are under the impression that world exists independently of consciousness and consciousness is a result of world.

You have made this assumption unfairly, the reason is because of consistency, this "place" appearing more real than a dream "place". Why does it appear more real? You are "here" now being bias, and it is always meeting your expectations, instead of going crazy and all over the place like you remember dreams to be. You need to realize that any consistency or patterns that hold are actually only patterns of sensory experiences.

For example water always acts like water or people can use the right substances to make a laptop, this is simply learning to manipulate and navigate this world of sensation, you have never once had any evidence or correct reasoning for anything but sensation, and the consistency and convincing nature of the world is actually a consistency between illusory sensations and nothing more.

"he has to see that you can't have ultimate reality without conventional reality.
and,
you can't have conventional reality without ultimate reality.

dependently arisen."


Again discriminating. When you refer to conventional reality, and to ultimate, and to consciousness, and to the world, and to other people, every single time in every single situation, for every single second, what have you been referring to?

What have you been experiencing?

Fleeting and transient sensations. When you think of a physical independent-of-sensation place, what does that concept exist as? A sensation. What does your reply exist as? Illusions, nothing more. How can you use illusions to support the existence of not illusions? Of things independent of experience? You can't.

I'm not entirely sure where you are coming from on this Dennis, I never have been, but I know Pye has taken a look at the particulars of her fleeting sensations, such as body and world, and believed them to be "more real" things that are independent of her experience. If you are on some kind of "middle" ground, what is it?

When I'm talking about sensation I also mean thought and mental formations, although to me these are nothing more than a part of these illusory and transient experiences/feelings and flow with them.

Dennis Mahar
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:14 am

If there was no conventional reality there could be no ultimate reality.

ultimate reality is an observation concerning conventional reality.


one cannot exist without the other.

its not an observation about absolute reality as you seem to think it is.

when conventional reality collapses, the ultimate reality concerning conventional reality collapses with it.

the nature of conventional reality and the ultimate reality concerning conventional reality is:
all things arise, endure, cease.
for the time being.

calm abiding. middle way.

any notion concerning absolute reality is metaphysical speculation.
Last edited by Dennis Mahar on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:53 am, edited 4 times in total.

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