Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Alex T. Jacob
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Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob »

The purpose of this thread is to explore---I guess one must say 'once again' insofar as it has been done so often---the notion of masculine freedom.

It seems to me, it seems clear, that the foundation of the freedom to pursue spirituality or 'enlightenment' that is treasured by the founders of this forum, is the most crucial aspect of their philosophical position. It also seems to me that it is the most 'problematic' since, in a very basic sense, to desire freedom from the female, the unconscious, and from the fact of causation that determines us, is a sort of male fantasy. The fantasy is not non-useful and non-productive, however, since men in the pursuit of it have created so many important and durable things. Indeed, in a certain sense at least, male longing for freedom from biological and causal determinism, a stark resistance to 'the way things are' ('The Facts") is the cause of all material culture.

I have often thought that there is in reality no freedom from the female in truth. The longing for such a freedom is constructed within a false dichotomy: matter vs spirit. The longing to be free of 'woman' is related as a conscious desire but also an unconscious desire (longing) to be free of the terrible constraints of a flesh existence. It is pretty easy to identify 'woman' as the anchor by which men are bound. Or, put another way, women and the feminine are never seen as a means to transcendence.
“The characteristic note of our time is the dire truth that, the mediocre soul, the commonplace mind, knowing itself to be mediocre, has the gall to assert its right to mediocrity, and goes on to impose itself where it can.”

"La mujer parece resuelta a mantener la especie dentro de limites mediocres, a procurar que el hombre no llegue nunca a ser semidios."

'Tal vez el papel de la mujer en la mecanica de la historia es ser una fuerza retardaria frente a la turbulenta inquietud del hombre."

― José Ortega y Gasset
(I leave it to you to translate the Spanish).

So, I hope that in this thread we might revisit the topic.

Along these lines I heard a strange story recently that intrigued me. I may use it as the basis of a story (indeed I have sort of novelized it here!) In skeleton form it went like this:
  • A man who had been going out with a woman for a couple of years happened to go to her house unexpectedly and overheard her and her lawyer talking on the back porch. He learned that she'd deliberately stopped taking birth control when the two of them had formally agreed always to use birth control. The man had explained clearly that he did not want to have children. But the woman, it turned out, very much wanted children and was also hung up on the man in a rather obsessive way (I think he had explained that he 'wanted his space' or something to that effect but was still fucking her regularly). And the man in question, as it turned out, had a certain amount of money too. The conversation he overheard had to do with the woman speaking about her surreptitious choice to get pregnant and also a rather direct and Machiavellian conversation with her lawyer about her 'options': what she could get out of him and how best to plan it.

    Obviously, if she had the child (she was 4 weeks pregnant or so), she would be able to make a case for child support and alimony and also---a long shot perhaps---some part of the man's wealth. He heard all this and was shocked, naturally. But he did not let on. He had to leave town for a few days and used that time to think it over. He came up with a rather dastardly counter-plan: He invited her to take a trip to Mexico where he had arranged to get hold of the abortive RU-486 (Mifepristone) and while on the trip secretly administered the abortive to her. She aborted with no problems. And it was at this point that he factually told her all he knew, all he had overheard. In short, he 'busted' her.

    The other part of the story, almost necessary to understand why he did it all this way, and of course why he bothered to tell her after he'd done it, was that he had transferred his assets out of the US, and with his decision to abort his child in the womb of a 'malicious' woman who was scheming on his wealth, he also decided to leave the US altogether. I seem to remember he went to live in Singapore.
The story fascinated me because it was so counter-crafty and contained so much 'metis' (trickery). I am curious to know what you-all think of the ethics of his decision and what it might mean as a 'morality tale'.

My position is that women, speaking generally, are very much indeed a mediocrity, but certainly no more and often quite a bit less than the vast multitudes of men. But with that in mind (as operative knowledge) it *should* be a man's decision to in some way or other break out of mediocrity. Not to conform to women's desires for him, not to become merely her 'biological servant'. In the best case, if indeed a man had such characteristics, he would could still have relations with women, but what complicates the whole issue is that, certainly in the First World, a woman represents a very real trap. Again, harkening to the Greek concept of 'metis': the clever designs employed by nature to disguise predation and the predator, and pushing the metaphor further: to 'guild the cage' or to scent it with lovely scent, but it is still a trap. Marriage and paternity can be and often is a Life Sentence for a man: once in you never get out.

My personal view is that a woman is something that one should consciously decide to 'control'. One must secure one's own position and make it unassailable (no way to get at what you have), and from that position one chooses the exact level of involvement one wants. For example, I have a GF (here in Latin America) who is really a sweet and respectful person and who is also getting help to finish school (she has a five years-old son, not mine). In truth she is a beautiful soul and did not have designs on me, as many Latinas do of foreigners, and this is why it became easy to desire to help her. She lives now with her mother and I definitely have no intention of inviting her to live with me. So, it turns into almost the 'perfect situation', but it is all predicated on male power: I have my own sources of income which are unassailable. Isn't this, I ask, what any one of us should seek? Our own sovereignty?

Looking forward to hearing what you-all have to say...
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What's the transaction?
Sex in exchange for Education?

hooking into that chick and her 5 year old son also involves hooking into the son's father; the chick will have parents, brothers, sisters, friends, uncles, aunts, cousins etc..

meet the fokkers.

by the way,
projecting 'beautiful soul' on her is your anima projection.
own it, integrate it.
it's part of you, not her.
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Alex T. Jacob
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob »

The transaction is: man's relationship with 'woman', if you wanted to put it that way. In the broadest of terms, man handles material culture: he builds it, oversees it. The beneficiary is 'woman'. So, what is the exchange? It is exactly in that. What you get out of it...is your very self. You came into the world as a result of that exchange! Trippy, huh?

In order to be able to help her (and to be clear about it), I had to be very clear that the offer to help was independent of any part of the affective relationship. If she wanted to end the affective relationship my help would not come to an end. (And similarly if I decided to end the affective relationship with her). That would be quite cheesy, wouldn't it? That would really reduce friendship to a base level (and it is mostly about friendship, as I see it). It may appear paternalistic (but that is also the theme of this thread: paternalism) but it is quite rewarding to see a person move from a dead-end job where all the money earned is consumed in very basic needs for her, her family and her child, to being able to advance on very different fronts with strong, forward moving strides. It made me think of Nietzsche's statement about well-being or happiness as the sense that obstacles fall away and one can advance unfettered. Isn't it the same for you or anyone? And if you do not have experience with the underprivileged world: about 40% of the population is in dire straits. They require an investment of (I calculated once) around $20,000.00 each one. All the stuff that we in the First World are given by the state. But the State doesn't have those resources. Actually, everything hinges on the question of 'resources', and not only monetary. If you do not have anything to give, you cannot give, you just don't have it.

I can see why your mind would gravitate to the sex-exchange thing: it is fairly typical. But in my case it has never been hard to get all the sex I desire if I desired it, and I have certainly done all of that. Had concubines, etc. Sex is not really on the top rung of my needs or desires. In Latin America, if you know how to handle women, you can get all the women and all the sex you want. There are literally zillions of women who are available for it if you know how to approach them. But, you will come face-to-face with generally underprivileged people who need things. Things you have. And I am talking about much more than just money. For me it becomes a sort of metaphor for a man's relationship to the world, if you will. And to 'woman'. That is the topic of this thread.

The other part of what I said about 'controlling' (circumstances): I don't really want to meet her mother, and I have no need to know her brother or anyone else. I control access in that sense. I decide what I want and what I don't want. (And the kid's father is completely absent from the scene.) I can do that because, in this sense, I decide.

And BTW to recognize a 'beautiful soul' is not a 'projection', though I can imagine why you might see it like that. In fact this woman indeed HAS a beautiful personality and a great deal of grace. In the region of Colombia where I live one sees a great deal of beauty in people, an above-average amount. I ask myself all the time what are the 'causes' of it and I haven't yet discovered an exact answer. Some places (physical places) by virtue of qualities in the place itself (the land, the soil?) are unusually productive and rich. I have noticed this in my world travels. I think another element here is a strong Catholic culture where there is a genuine expression of the classical Christian values: concern for others, respect, and so forth. Really, it is a bit hard to understand because in Colombia overall (as everyone has heard) there is also a strong violent streak. Colombians are a strange, gifted and also complex and sometimes bizarre people. But trust me on this one Dennis: this person has an unusual inner beauty that is noticeable outwardly.

We do have the ability to see objectively, I think. And there are objective facts to be seen. The world does not originate in us and get projected outward, I don't think. It is there independently of us.

But moreover I am noticing the dynamic: it is our role as men to channel our efforts toward benefitting other people, and naturally toward women and women's culture. This is sort of my whole point. Cutting ourself off from 'it' is not the answer or, if it is an answer, it is a temporary and possibly neurotic one. You can't cut yourself off but have to choose how you are going to relate.
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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

hahahah, man the guy in that story cracked me up.

"My personal view is that a woman is something that one should consciously decide to 'control'."

Yeah, although what this means really is to awaken them to release them from their negativity and over attachment/ need to constrain, you just do what you want to do,even without giving them time, and if you treat them nice, lots of kisses, it works out fine anyway.

You should just never think of the past or future, ever, and also never plan ahead in fear of being deceived, or mistrust before you have a reason to, nothing will go wrong.
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar »

But moreover I am noticing the dynamic: it is our role as men to channel our efforts toward benefitting other people, and naturally toward women and women's culture. This is sort of my whole point. Cutting ourself off from 'it' is not the answer or, if it is an answer, it is a temporary and possibly neurotic one. You can't cut yourself off but have to choose how you are going to relate.
It certainly seems like the classic anima projection.

Pulling Cinderella out from the ashes.

Pygmalion/My Fair Lady.

providing male ascendancy and an elevated mood of nobility.

there is sex exchanged for a 'glass slipper' thing about it, and it wouldn't happen without the provision of sex.
Enjoy it.

Is it a man's role to assume power/control over women?



Good idea to keep the fokkers out of it.

How come you live in Colombia?
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Alex T. Jacob
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob »

Sure Dennis, but in the realm of 'what seems' is sometimes the area of the greatest 'projections'. One thing about the Jungian frame is that it is too easy to 'project' it on the whole world, all relationships. Overall this is what the classic Jungian does: the narrative they look at is chemically converted into a tale of anima, animus, archetype, shadow, etc. It is a very attractive system to throw at the world. The danger is that it is far too broad and too dependent on the subjective status of the observer.

The whole force of my argument is precisely in a definition of 'man's relationship with woman'. The way I see this is that man creates a technological secondary world and culture and society arises within it. 'Woman', to use the singular group designation of QRS, is the principal beneficiary of the creation of this 'world'. Man serves woman. So, at the base of the relationship to 'woman' is exactly the dynamic of, say, Pygmalion.

The strict class barriers in that story certainly correspond to Latin American culture. The structure is very different from our First World comprised generally of a giant middle class (and I note that nearly everyone who participates in this forum responds to most questions and issues from exactly that perspective, with all its assumptions, presuppositions, value-judgements, etc.) where everyone is more or less equal. In Latin America almost half of the population is impoverished, seventy five percent in not altogether favorable circumstances, with a small faction doing well, with classical mobility, etc. To live in Latin America, unless one were to hang out within the upper echelons, is to come directly into contact with disadvantage. The upper classes remain hermetically sealed away in their advantage.

Anyway, the idea I am working with is pretty classically chauvinist and is sort of a reversal of the Marxian model. It is perhaps one of the strongest areas of agreement I have with the philosophy of the Founders of GF: men make this world, and it is man's activity within the material of the world that precisely defines man. "La mujer parece resuelta a mantener la especie dentro de limites mediocres, a procurar que el hombre no llegue nunca a ser semidios", is an interesting meditation within an examination of man's power. My interest---especially in this thread---is in defining masculine power. So, it is 'male ascendency' as a validated goal. In fact it seems to me that, especially in the First World where one false move with a woman will lead directly to a form of slavery, that men should learn to protect their interests. All those horrible tales of being stripped of everything when the divorce is put in motion are pretty sobering tales. What I think this means is that the State itself, as representative of women's interests, becomes man's enemy. And this is extended even further: commercial and corporate interests, as the enemies of 'wisdom' and the possibility of masculine 'ascendency' (as Pye would say: transcendence), create systems that bind men. It becomes a strange but telling parable of the Manichean myth of the 'evil world', filled with traps at every point, that seeks to mire the Seeker. If the point is to avoid all that, and I assume this is an interesting subject for all concerned, how is it to be carried out? Get a vasectomy, go on (First World only) welfare, and hide out in a shack reciting and internalizing The Dharma?

So, as I see it, being proactive in relation to a deserving person, a person who didn't expect it but definitely appreciates it, is to acknowledge one's 'superior' position and to consciously choose to benefit her. That benefit will have repercussions in the present and also in the future. It is a rational choice but within an affective relationship. I find it all very curious and interesting.
Is it a man's role to assume power/control over women?
This is exactly the area where all my questions are focussed. Knowledge of the world, understanding it, manipulating it, lead directly to 'control' of it. But you use 'role' as if there is, or there is not, some pre-established pattern. Intelligence, self-consciousness, technological mastery, mastery of concepts, leads directly to rulership. If I have learned one central thing from my participation here in this forum it is that it is within THAT that we have to focus.

Why do I live in Colombia? The Archetype made me do it! ;-)
______________________________________
Seeker wrote: "Yeah, although what this means really is to awaken them to release them from their negativity and over attachment/ need to constrain, you just do what you want to do,even without giving them time, and if you treat them nice, lots of kisses, it works out fine anyway."
Well, it sounds as though you have your project defined and cut out for yourself! The work of the Sage, the Educator. Still, you have defined a top-down relationship: work on the unconscious protoplasm! The rest of what you wrote, if you'll permit me to say it, is highly romantic, a little newagey?
You should just never think of the past or future, ever, and also never plan ahead in fear of being deceived, or mistrust before you have a reason to, nothing will go wrong.
You should think of the past and future always; you should know that deception and trickery (to get what you have amassed) is part-and-parcel of the world. The world in this sense has designs on you from the moment you stepped out of the womb! The world is a predation-system and it is a wise person who understands this dynamic. That is also one of my main points: the need to see things clearly, not 'romantically'.

You say that story cracked you up. Why?
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Tomas
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Tomas »

Alex T. Jacob wrote:
Seeker wrote: "Yeah, although what this means really is to awaken them to release them from their negativity and over attachment/ need to constrain, you just do what you want to do,even without giving them time, and if you treat them nice, lots of kisses, it works out fine anyway."
Well, it sounds as though you have your project defined and cut out for yourself! The work of the Sage, the Educator. Still, you have defined a top-down relationship: work on the unconscious protoplasm! The rest of what you wrote, if you'll permit me to say it, is highly romantic, a little newagey?
You should just never think of the past or future, ever, and also never plan ahead in fear of being deceived, or mistrust before you have a reason to, nothing will go wrong.
You should think of the past and future always; you should know that deception and trickery (to get what you have amassed) is part-and-parcel of the world. The world in this sense has designs on you from the moment you stepped out of the womb! The world is a predation-system and it is a wise person who understands this dynamic. That is also one of my main points: the need to see things clearly, not 'romantically'.
Well stated, Alex. You win a cookie!
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar »

So, as I see it, being proactive in relation to a deserving person, a person who didn't expect it but definitely appreciates it, is to acknowledge one's 'superior' position and to consciously choose to benefit her. That benefit will have repercussions in the present and also in the future. It is a rational choice but within an affective relationship. I find it all very curious and interesting.
Sounds like you've found some peace and healing.
found your centre.
become mature.
can't see the trickster any more.
very welcome.
thanks.
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Alex T. Jacob
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob »

You're projecting, Dennis! You see what you desire to see, perhaps? Everything I am writing about stems from 'mercurial' possibilities, both of seeing and acting. My notions about the Trickster have simply become more thorough, more refined. Man's whole intellectual structure is 'tricksterism', and all of life is 'the trick'. To be wise in life is to deal with many blows, many attacks, many false-fronts, and the clever mind that develops from that is 'trickster intellect'.
"At some crucial point in his career the hero has to confront the spells of some god of great cunning who holds the secret of his success. The god possesses the power to assume all kinds of different forms and, as the contest proceeds, this makes him a kind of polymorphous monster, a terrifying opponent, impossible to seize. To conquer him it is necessary to take him by surprise with a trick, a disguise, an ambush---as Menalaus does with the ancient Proteus."

---Cunning Intelligence in Greek Culture and Society, by Marcel Detienne & Jean-Pierre Vernant
I refer to the Greek mythology and methodology because it is these ideas, deeply sublimated in all our thinking and acting and confronting life, that are at the core of our Western approach.

What I find curious about you, and I link you with Seeker in this sense, is your desire to 'project' onto the world what you desire it to be, what you insist it must be! And that for you is 'very welcome' and for that you can give 'thanks'. From my vantage this is all silliness. 'Noble' silliness, yes, but still romantic and unrealistic, hence also immature, untested? The skills necessary to advance in this world---as it is and as it will remain---are discomfiting to middle class sensibilities. The world is what it is and is not changed by how we look at it. It seems to me that the more clear we get about that, the better equipped we become to see things as they are. The 'trickster' is always there, like an ironic presence laughing at us behind the manifestation, and all its tricks are only to make us aware. The 'power' that pushes us toward awareness is utterly indifferent to us! And to become strong ourselves is to mimic this power.
"The fish trap exists because of the fish; once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap ... Words exist because of meaning; once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words." ---The Talking Ass in a private talk given to intimate nymphomaniac girl-disciples of his innermost circle.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar »

everyone is projecting a possibility for world,
even you,
we are meaningmakers.


if trickster lies in wait for anyone it lies in wait for you as well.

so, this man/woman possibility you want to generate is a political act correct?
A winning formula for social order.
a utopia.

an impregnable fortress.

a rich, male benefactor must find his cinderella in the ashes.

the woman receives, appreciatively, like a cup,
the nectar of the man's toils.

he gives his gift, she receives his gift,
she gives her gift, he receives her gift.

benefactor, gift, receiver united in a single act without separation,
perfect harmony.

Is that the thesis?

stick to the bloody thesis will you, the winning formula,
subjecting us to paragraph after paragraph of whining about other peoples formulas is inane.

You've got your set of assessments there, the central focus being:
'It's a dangerous world"

you've got your set of options including putting the bulk of your money out of her reach except for the trickle you provide as necessary to keep the show on the road.

out of that comes the winning formula.
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Alex T. Jacob
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob »

Ah, but it is one thing to 'meaning-make', and another to interpret inaccurately. If as you say our meaning-making is a spurious, arbitrary activity, an imposition on the world, the implication is that any meaning-assignment is false in se. It seems to me that that cannot be so, otherwise no interpretive system for our world would function.

A predator, such as the fabled fox, succeeds so well because he interprets his world with precision. All creatures that depend on 'metis' (Metis: μῆτις means 'cunningness' or 'wisdom, craft, skill' in Ancient Greek) are wise and capable because they interpret their world accurately. This forum, according to its declarations, holds Wisdom as a very high and necessary quality. I am placing that Wisdom into the word μῆτις and am exploring it.

What I find interesting here, so far, is how you first identify 'projection' but then engage in it at each turn! You are certainly free to do that, and indeed it is really sort of fun. I mean, we all engage in our 'interpretive impositions'. But there is a point where we must ask: Is my interpretation accurate?

Trickster, as I am defining it, is part-and-parcel of the world, that is true. It is that zone within or perhaps between maya-ignorance and awareness-consciousness. If this is 'true', then of course I have to confront it.
So, this man/woman possibility you want to generate is a political act, correct?
They used to say The personal is Political. Can you think of anything that is NOT, at least in some sense, political? Again, it is interesting to see you, rather clumsily, wield your interpretations. While this was not part of the subject for this thread, still it is quite relevant. In this sense: as men (who have special analytical strength and, from all appearances, greater responsibility) we are required to see better, more clearly; to see through the form to the essence. But if we are interpreting wrong, we won't be able to arrive at the correct 'essence'. My answer to you is that, no, my relationship to the specific woman I am seeing is not conditioned by political considerations...but how could I deny that there isn't a political element?

As to 'winning formulas, social order, impregnable fortresses, and Cinderellas'...I would only note how strangely your interpretive mind works! Aren't you really saying that were you to engage in anything like I am, that you would do it on the basis of those motivators, or those desired outcomes? I am not unaware of those possibilities but the reason I do it is for the fun of it. Because I can and because I want to. There is a huge difference between your projected assumptions...and 'reality'.
The woman receives, appreciatively, like a cup,
the nectar of the man's toils.
This is a statement that, to my eyes, comes close to a statement of fact. There is probably some sort of 'archetypal' truth there.

As to the rest, I only hope that you can take note of your interpretive errors. I mean of course only if you want to. There is in all these questions all kinds of ranges of shadowing and nuance. If you so crudely force it to be only what you demand that it be, you make deliberate interpretive errors. And I say this is not a good course for men.

My understanding is that, at the most fundamental level, the world is decidedly dangerous. Existence is fragile.

As to the financial reality, I would rather say that it is imperative for men to 1) have and handle resources, and 2) certainly know how to protect them. But if you have nothing to protect that is also a way out of the whole problem, at least apparently.
Is that the thesis?
Can the thesis be μῆτις? Any objection?
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Kunga »

Sounds like premeditated murder to me.
Cold & calculating.
Wrong intensions.
Selfish.
Egotistical.
Selfrighteous.

I prefer the Romantic spontaneous approach....free of pretense...inspired by love.....
Intensions are everything.

You will reap what you sow.

She maybe calculating & playing the sweet soul you see her as.....
Maybe the drug cartel is behind her.

Don't think with your dick dipped in rationality...
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Quit mucking about.
deflecting.

the elements are as given.

girl in dire straits.
trickle small amounts of money into her hands and keep the bulk of the assets out of her reach.
Male in dominant position. power and control.
male gets sex and relationship in return.

looks like a guy with abandonment issues hatching a Machievellian plot to lock up a chick in a contract that minimises the chances of getting abandoned again.
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Alex T. Jacob
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob »

Dennis, you are somewhat close, but tellingly incorrect in your interpretation! It is the part where you are forcing your own view and assuming it is mine (or any other as the case may be) that reveals, er-hum, the 'projection'.

So:
Sounds like you've found some peace and healing.
found your centre.
become mature.
can't see the trickster any more.
very welcome.
thanks.
Becomes:
Looks like a guy with abandonment issues hatching a Machievellian plot to lock up a chick in a contract that minimises the chances of getting abandoned again.
What a luxury: To assume the position of Ultimate Arbiter!

FYI: both of these assessments are inaccurate! Trippy, huh? ;-) Look over what I am writing and see if you can reconsider!
_____________________________________________
Kunga wrote: Sounds like premeditated murder to me.
Cold & calculating.
Wrong intensions.
Selfish.
Egotistical.
Self-righteous.

I prefer the Romantic spontaneous approach....free of pretense...inspired by love.....
Intensions are everything.
Love is an interesting word. One worth exploring. I think it was Ortega y Gasset who said something like: everything we call love has more the look and effect of hate. I would say that some huge part of what is called 'love' is really not love at all. I also tend to think that 'real love' is something very different, and is never 'romantic'. Romanticism is idealism run through the emotions, and that is fine as far as it goes. But 'real love', that is love-as-action, I think, arises from a position of strength and also power. Might this be some kind of Nietzschean love? In any case, I think I would begin to define a more sober, masculine love.

It seems to me that we have to know who we are and when we actually understand that---not easy, really---we can then soberly make choices. Life is actually composed by and comprised of coldness and calculatingness, dubious intentions (mixed desires, mixed signals and deceptive presentation of self); we are indeed selfish as 'the first order of offerings is always to the self'; and we are certainly egoic. Self-righteousness? I am not sure how that got thrown in, but to know who you are, what you stand for, what you are capable of, and what you desire might be construed as self-righteousness, okay. But all these designators are meaningless, to me. You have to start with what you really and truly are, without deception.
She maybe calculating & playing the sweet soul you see her as.....
Maybe the drug cartel is behind her.
And whoever she is, whatever she does, is her issue, not mine. Do you see? If you are going to give something to someone the most important thing is to REALLY GIVE IT. Don't give to get. Both you and Dennis seem like you are completely uncertain, and perhaps even incapable, of actually giving something freely to someone else. (From the sound of your paranoid, inaccurate assessments...)

I admit it is a charged topic though. And those generally become the most productive threads, from my perspective anyway.
I can't go on. I'll go on.
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Kunga
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Kunga »

Alex T. Jacob wrote:the most important thing is to REALLY GIVE IT. Don't give to get. Both you and Dennis seem like you are completely uncertain, and perhaps even incapable, of actually giving something freely to someone else. (From the sound of your paranoid, inaccurate assessments...)
It sounded like you are the paranoid one....trying to protect your assets.
I agree that to give, it is done freely , without preconcieved attachments or expectations.
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob »

Kunga, dearest, do you have any real experience in this world? (Sorry, I know that sounds condescending). Are you aware that with a slight slip-up in the way one's assets are held that it can all be taken from you? Is it because you have no wealth that you have no understanding of these things? Do you understand why it is that people who have assets hire lawyers to structure their ownership so that in the event of a, say, insurance-related lawsuit, or an assault by an unhappy ex or in so many different ways, for example sickness when you are under-insured, can wipe out a lifetime's work?

Paranoia is defined as irrational, unfounded fear, imagined fear. But I am speaking about tangible, demonstrable and real things, not fantasies. I began this thread with a story I heard on another forum I participate on. A man who discovered that his GF and her lawyer were plotting on his wealth. That is called μῆτις: craft or skill to attain something. He employed a counter-μῆτις to be sure that didn't happen. What do you think about that specific story?

I am not speaking about my own position which is far simpler, but I am speaking about men gaining all sorts of self-consciousness so to be able to handle, consciously and skillfully, all that they are about. That is not paranoia, it is... μῆτις!

Try to look clearly at what I am writing and saying and not what you think I am writing and saying, or what it would mean if you were writing and saying it!
I agree that to give, it is done freely , without preconcieved attachments or expectations.
I would modify this: I would say that it is a GIVEN that we have mixed motives, that we have attachments and desires ALWAYS. It is more a question of knowing exactly who we are and still deciding to do 'the right thing' despite ourselves.
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Kunga wrote: You will reap what you sow.
Alex, that's because you haven't yet fully accepted that your circumstances and future is pre-meditated by your own thoughts and feelings, if you let go of past and future completely, every single day, shit's just going to work out for you, either because you don't care/ are content and aren't thinking whether it is or isn't working out, or I'm actually correct and you are altering what happens to you simply through your personal attitude and thoughts. You said yourself you were suspicious that you were altering things from that invisible center inside, I'm under the impression this is true and that you can even test it, it has definitely worked for me and I would say it's completely conclusive but it's not going to be easy for someone in your position to accept this possibility, you came with your little heart set that there is something looming ahead, but if you are living in the every moment, as if nothing's wrong, what's wrong? No one is going to steal your money.

Either way, as Kunga said, you will reap what you sow, do whatever doesn't hurt, in which you don't feel guilty, and then once the decision is made, forget about it, don't keep these problems on your mind.
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Kunga »

I think it's horrible what that woman was trying to do...I hate gold-diggers.
No, I haven't any money...I live from paycheck to paycheck....but I live comfortably with little & have little needs.
I just think your calculating and controlling characteristics concerning money & women, are just as calculating as a calculating woman looking for control & money. ( Same thing).

I have always fallen in love with poor men (with rich hearts) & (that worked just as hard as me).
Never cared about money, (only to take care of basic needs ).
Yes, I'm a romantic. ( I feel intoxicated by the richness of appreciating the little things in life)
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I can make any leading statements I like Alex in your request for exploration.



the elements are as given.

girl in dire straits. (opportunity)
trickle small amounts of money into her hands and keep the bulk of the assets out of her reach.
Male in dominant position. power and control.
male gets sex and relationship in return.

you call it a mercurial possibility.
I call it a winning formula.
same thing.

To say 'I do it for fun 'cos I can' and 'cunning like a fox',
as motives.

Am I supposed to be impressed?
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Alex T. Jacob »

Kunga, and what do you think of what the man did in response?
___________________________________________

Seeker, I believe I grasp at least somewhat well the tenets you are working with. I see it somewhat differently: I think that what we do inside ourselves (a *place* hard to define but it is very central and 'core' to ourselves) does most certainly influence our trajectory in the world, and also seems to create resonances with other persons in strange ways, nevertheless I do not think we have any sort of 'absolute control' or that we completely direct the show. I rather think that we have a certain, even rather small, percentage of leverage that we can use. But I place the use of this, if you will, 'existential magic' ALSO right there within the notion of μῆτις! I understand your present relationship to the idea of a kind of 'dreamed-reality' and, for myself, see even that differently.

You have made a mistake---why do you all make this mistake, I wonder?---of projecting into what I am communicating content that is not there. I did not say, nor do I fear, that anything in particular is 'looming ahead', but I do very much believe that---and I am specifically speaking to men about men's reality, and this thread is couched in specifics---men need very much to take themselves and their entire situation in hand. While I recognize that one can do things 'intuitively', or one can allow things to occur spontaneously and hold a mental frame that 'everything is fine and it is going to work out fine', I also think that one needs also to plan carefully, think things through, make intelligent choices. I don't know how these notions fit in with you ideas.

In the I-Ching there is a line: Places white rushes underneath. No blame. When you are moving a heavy object you take precautions and place 'white rushes' underneath so it doesn't scratch the floor. The idea has wide implications.

The phrase 'reap what you sow' is a little bit of a tired cliche, for me. According to your views it would seem that one might 'dream what one wills' which is different.
_______________________________________________

Dennis, you are mistaken once again! No part of this is intended to 'impress' you or anyone else. Is it possible that you can see no further than your own limited outlook?!
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Kunga »

Alex T. Jacob wrote:what do you think of what the man did in response?
She deserved it . Karma is a bitch.
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Dennis, you are mistaken once again! No part of this is intended to 'impress' you or anyone else. Is it possible that you can see no further than your own limited outlook?!
You said a mercurial possibility.
a method for men to have dominion over women.
you want it evaluated.
you are asking is it impressive by implication.

quit deflecting.

are these the elements?

girl in dire straits. (opportunity)
trickle small amounts of money into her hands and keep the bulk of the assets out of her reach.
Male in dominant position. power and control.
male gets sex and relationship in return.

Let's take a look at Quinn's position in regard to women.
To use them as equipment for worldly desires is out of the question.
He invites them to join a conversation concerning the nature of ultimate reality by way of logic and reason.

That is impressive.
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Kunga
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Kunga »

Alex T. Jacob wrote:The phrase 'reap what you sow' is a little bit of a tired cliche, for me. According to your views it would seem that one might 'dream what one wills' which is different.
How i saw in in context of your relationship with the Columbian woman, is this :

You have a plan = She has a plan
Whatever plans (intensions) you have, will manifest likewise on her end.
She most likely has ulteirior motives & plans to correspond with your motives.
Get it ?


Why do you even bother with women that are not your equal ? (Intellectually & Economically)
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Dennis Mahar »

She most likely has ulteirior motives & plans to correspond with your motives.
Get it ?
Foxy lady.
The way he tells it, with a 5yo kid she's short on options.
Why do you even bother with women that are not your equal ? (Intellectually & Economically)
Because he would have no power/control.
Last edited by Dennis Mahar on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Women, Freedom, Entrapment, Strategy

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Foxy lady.
Generally speaking, Columbian women are not very smart, unless educated....I can't imagine Alex spending much time with a dullard...unless her femininity is too irresistable (hot body). He's a fool then.

As far as power & control goes....yeah, Columbian women don't like wimpy men, Columbian men are aggressive with their women, so he's playing the part (macho-type). But a desperate woman with a hot body & oozing kindness can pussy whip him & he knows this....that's why he's getting his fucks (ducks) in a row !
LOL
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