There can be no suffering without ignorance

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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SeekerOfWisdom
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There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:26 am

It is evil deeds, ignorant thoughts of desire, greed, lust, and so forth, that causes suffering, when one makes the commitment to renounce them even when they are alone and in secret, in your thoughts and at your heart, to remove ignorance, then all suffering will dissipate, things will fall by themselves into place, what appeared bad before will no longer be bad, when you work at something without doubt you will achieve it, and when you give yourself up for repentance you will be forgiven, this will make all the difference, and he who forgives you is no one but yourself, open recognition that you want to overcome your own evil thoughts and ignorance is all that is needed, a real striving for benevolence is what will bring it about, remember what you are, instantly forget all the doubt you are having, the insecurity and resentment, transform yourself and evil cannot remain.

This is not something I can prove, but if you do it within yourself you will see it's effects almost immediately, there is something deep down in you that already knows this to be true and has seen it.

Take this as truth until you have seen it yourself, the end of all your problems is one decision away.

"Our life is shaped by our mind; we become what we think. Suffering follows an evil thought as the wheels of a cart follow the oxen that draws it." - Buddha

"So do not worry, saying 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'. For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you."
-Jesus Christ

"If you don't realize the source,
you stumble in confusion and sorrow.

When you realize where you come from,
you naturally become tolerant,
disinterested, amused,
kindhearted as a grandmother,
dignified as a king.
Immersed in the wonder of the Tao,
you can deal with whatever life brings you,"
-Tao Te Ching #69

henrihoover
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by henrihoover » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:45 am

I always live by Buddha's quotes.

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:37 pm

Smart thinking

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:23 pm

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Our life is shaped by our mind; we become what we think.
Seeker it can be interesting to look to other ways to translate a verse, to see what it does, instead of lifting some quote blindly because of an emotional reaction:

- All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made. (Daw Mya Tin)
- Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. (Acharya Buddharakkhita)
- Mind precedes all knowables, mind's their chief, mind-made are they. (Ven W Sarada Maha Thero)

These are common alternatives for the text. Notice the difference between "life" and "knowables" or the difference between "shaped" and "precedes". The text you are using looks to me a self serving translation from a self-help guru. You can "shape your own destiny", just "think positive" etcetc and then use Buddha quotes to beef it up. Hahaha! A bit of bullshit of course. What is "life" after all.
"If you don't realize the source,
you stumble in confusion and sorrow.
-Tao Te Ching #69
It's actually #16 by Stephen Mitchell. Here are some other possibilities which seem more useful and less vague on "realizing Source" crap:

- Not knowing the eternal causes passions to rise; and that is evil. (D. T. Suzuki & Paul Carus)
- To know that unchanging rule is to be intelligent; not to know it leads to wild movements and evil issues. (James Legge)
- Knowing the constant is called 'enlightenment'. Not knowing the constant is the source of evil deeds because we have no roots. ( J. H. McDonald)

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:38 pm

Diebert I am sorry that you think so, it is only because you do not realize what you are, test it yourself and you will see how suffering follows evil thoughts simply because you were aware of doing something which felt wrong to you, life is like a dream after all, the act of thinking effects the future, neither of which you have control over, none the less it is true

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:59 am

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Diebert I am sorry that you think so, it is only because you do not realize what you are, test it yourself and you will see how suffering follows evil thoughts simply because you were aware of doing something which felt wrong to you, life is like a dream after all, the act of thinking effects the future, neither of which you have control over, none the less it is true
So it's okay to bullshit and say whatever you want? The moment one is caused to think "it's not okay what I'm doing here", a process can start to reflect and improve. It doesn't matter if life is a dream or not. It's still about attention being given and responding accordingly. The truth is you're making it very easy for yourself right now because you are still in love with certain things, making all sorts of "wild movements" at least in your speech.

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:22 am

You know this to be true my friend, go cause some one great suffering and some unrelated great suffering will be caused to you too, that's my guarantee, you can experiment it a thousand times it will never fail. If you haven't figured this out yet you simply haven't been listening haha, your thoughts are the only place suffering comes from, specifically evil thoughts which in turn bring about suffering in you or others through your actions.

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by Dennis Mahar » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:23 am

Diebert,
Let's have a go at identifying the pattern.

first there are trees
then there are no trees
then there are trees


John has come out of 'there are trees' into 'there are no trees'.
A breakthrough into the recognition that conventional reality has got it skewed and there is an ultimate reality.
John, in his fearless way of being in expounding the falsity of conventional reality is of benefit to us all.

'then there are no trees', is understood to be beginners mind or the Pollyanna stage,
not because 'there are no trees' is a false understanding,
but, because one has to proceed with Life and to do so recover the understanding 'then there are trees'.

The 2 distinctions of truth are to be held.
'there are no trees' and 'there are trees'.

that is the way of wisdom.

'there are no trees' actually, as John points out.
'there are trees' appearing is undeniable.

'there are trees' is how consciousness participates and comes to play.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:47 am

Yes, life is shaped by mind as mind is shaped by life.

To be half-assed about it is a weird situation to be in, amazing and terrible, sometimes even at the same time.
A halfway house, a purgatory but a miracle nevertheless. Now you see it, now you don't. A sleight of hand!

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:50 am

There is nothing and everything at once, when did I say to lay down and die because of illusion?

There are trees and fruit to be picked.

Ever since the other night I can awaken anyone if I talk to them in private Dennis, only because I figured out how to do it, instead of telling them they don't know, I ask them what they know, which creates confusion, and then start from there/ which is actually nowhere, it's been working.

Btw, for anyone with facebook, made a cool page haha http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wise-Quot ... 448?ref=hl

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:57 am

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:There is nothing and everything at once
But that's a false statement. Where there's everything there's emptiness. The opposite of everything would be anything partial, which cannot really exist by itself, has no existence by itself and therefore would be "no thing".

Pick the fruit of knowing these things!

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:14 am

It's a contradictory statement not a false one.

"Nothing exists" - Dennis

"Things do exist, appearances" - John

Nothing and everything, no time, at once.

It wasn't literal...something you guys don't yet know:

When you dream you enter eternity, timeless awareness of everything at once, "unfocused" view of the cloud, when you awake to form, that is "focused on form", you then only have fragmented faded memories spread over countless forms, that is why they appear nonsensical when you wake simply because you think they happened in order, it all made perfect sense to you at the time.

One's attachment for particular form dissipates, you grow tired inevitably and fade from "there", and return to the eternal realm of nothing and everything.

You could shut off form, "close your eyes", before you had eyelids. This is true knowledge that is why you will laugh, this is complete dissolution of false knowledge that is why it seems nonsensical, irrational, unreasonable, that is you holding on to illusion. Stop thinking and pretending to know, and you will eventually see, you could close your eyes before you had eyelids, shut off form instantly on a whim.

Craving for form brings you back, you start following one of those particular cloud manifestations again, all are being followed at once by the same awareness, your individuality an illusion, your particular form and experiences are nothing but projections of the formless.

Dennis Mahar
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by Dennis Mahar » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:08 am

Diebert's dealing with your statement.

'picking fruit'.

the fruit is nonsubstantial.
giving fruit substantial entityness ( sleight of hand) when its nature is appearance contradicts much of what you are saying.

Let's get it straight.
Ever since the other night I can awaken anyone if I talk to them in private Dennis, only because I figured out how to do it, instead of telling them they don't know, I ask them what they know, which creates confusion, and then start from there/ which is actually nowhere, it's been working.
That means, in a conversation, you are getting access to the person's epistemology for untangling.
You are directing the conversation form-wise.
That means it is scripted.

Can you descibe a conversation that worked.
how it went sentence by sentence.

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:24 am

"Give me your reasons for why you think anything exists outside of observation or your experiences"

Crickets.

"Helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know."

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:29 am

"giving fruit substantial entityness ( sleight of hand) when its nature is appearance contradicts much of what you are saying."

No it doesn't, healing the knowledgeable sick, appearances or not, brings vision where there was "blindness".

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by Dennis Mahar » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:34 am

That means, in a conversation, you are getting access to the person's epistemology for untangling.
You are directing the conversation form-wise.
That means it is scripted.

Can you descibe a conversation that worked.
how it went sentence by sentence.
We want the meal not the menu.

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:50 am

How about, instead of watching someone else eat, I serve you now? Of course, only if your table is empty, I bet I can have you believing you can alter future events with your thoughts(no other actions) within a few days :p

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:52 am

Then you shall have proof and be willing to listen

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:07 pm

"The kingdom of God is at hand" - Jesus Christ
"The great tao flows everywhere" - Lao Tzu

It is? Where? Is it at hand in the sky?

"No..... it is within you" - Jesus
"No.. it is always present within you" - Lao

What? Inside my body? I get it....I'm part of it but nothing special, a projection, an appearance with no side, there is no actual "awareness of all", as you guys seem to be describing it, and if there is, my awareness is somehow not that one. - Dennis Mahar

"no, fools, I and the father are one" - Jesus
" no, you are one with the tao " - Lao

Hold on a second... you actually mean, there is no difference between that awareness of my experiences, and that awareness of everything which is god? I am that awareness? Reality is subject to me? and that when I break from my false form, simply by sleeping, I return to the formless timeless awareness of everything? And have been experiencing what it is like to be the alpha and omega for eternity?

Bingo!

That is what I and the father are one means after all.

"May they become completely one!" - Jesus

Google Translate: They are completely one! May they realize!

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:32 pm

I have written with the authority of the truth, what is aware of you is not you but me and you, do not deny or doubt me, for with whatever measure you use it will be measured unto you, through denying and doubting yourself.

Did you know: That in both physical or dream, illusion or material, whatever the case, if you view it from the outside, non-biasly.... It is a fact that "the universe" wrote this.. or the tao... either way, I did not write this, and you did not read it, But "it" did, did you know?

How can you not see then, if you did know, what still clouds you?

Your awareness is not "your" awareness! Your thoughts are not "your" thoughts....

"the universe is not intelligent, saith the universe"

"God is not, there is no higher intelligence or being" saith God

May they become completely one and be free from doubt in their ability so that their belief may then show them proof.

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by Dennis Mahar » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:12 pm

The conversation is 'walking around on the mortal coil' concerning 'walking around on the mortal coil'.

throwing quotes around like confetti doesn't 'get' it.

if there are no trees and there is trees appearing which is our agreed upon contention.
then there are no fruits and there is fruits appearing.

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:25 pm

Yet all appearances, or, all "seen's", come from the same seed, the same awareness that is aware that your experiences are only appearances.

A fruit can't be aware it's a fruit.

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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:26 pm

Don't you yet see you aren't disagreeing with a word I've said but are still typing like you disagree?

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Kunga
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by Kunga » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:30 pm

I see fruitcakes !

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: There can be no suffering without ignorance

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:34 pm

Nutbags you mean

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