Wise Quotes Collection

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Kunga
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by Kunga » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:36 pm

First there is a mountain
Then there is no mountain
Then there is

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:58 pm

I do not think nothing exists, sense experience exists.
The Buddha did exist, he existed in other peoples seeing of him, and in his own seeing.

Without that sensing, there is no Buddha.

They have an existence dependent on conditions.

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:03 pm

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Jufa, I already told you, your question is ridiculous, it does not make sense, seeing as my point was very clear, all you have done is taken the definition of the word "real" and tried to twist my meaning.

But why?... you get my meaning perfectly. So why?

Perception exists, perception is real, the universe exists only in our perception.

Happy? I will use the word universe rather than reality, I was referring to this reality that is shared.

(and no I don't believe the tree to exist if no one is directly observing it)
SeekerofWisdom, for you to assume anyone understands what you meant is to say that which prompted you from your experiential knowledge is visible. Should this be the case, then mind-reading would be the norm.

Now for you to say my question is ridiculous and doesn't make sense; that I could see your point very clear without giving reason as to how I could look into the dark glass of relativism and see an assumption. Moreover, I have taken the definition of real and twisted its meaning. If you cannot reach the height of logic which will make it reasonable to any other persons understanding by saying what you mean, then your assumption is what is ridiculous. Example of saying what is meant is found below.

So allow me to elevate you to a higher level of meaning. The question put to you was:
"If "Reality exists only in perception" how then can perception be real?"
base on your statement:
Perception exists, perception is real, the universe exists only in our perception.


Perception is not reality. Perception is an element of reality. Reality does not exist only in perception of element of awareness because of three reasons:

1). You nor anyone else can define reality, only fragments of attached awareness which makes one aware. Well then reality individualized is not about what one is aware of, but how one interprets that which they are aware of.

2). You entered into a parenthesis of perception which existed before you perceived it. This mean reality existed before you perceived, or became aware of it.

3). Should reality exist only in perception, as you have stated, nothing could enter into individual perception, at any time which could expand the infinity of the sentient mind? How could enlightenment occur?

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa

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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:02 pm

Your sensations and feelings, mental awareness, makes up all that is. If you were to expand your consciousness, if you were to be in another "existence", another place that would is actually an illusion, as it would only be the sensations changing, (I am including thought here, as that is part of what you are witnessing, miraculous stream of feeling)

"Should reality exist only in perception, as you have stated, nothing could enter into individual perception, at any time which could expand the infinity of the sentient mind? How could enlightenment occur? "

Buddha answered this question exactly.

"And it is impossible that any one can explain the passing out of one
existence, and the entering into a new existence, or the growth,
increase, and development of consciousness, independent of
corporeality, feeling, perception, and mental formations."

Experiences change, experiences are, what else is? You imply some kind of external reality exists, that would be there outside of observation, something you have no evidence of(is impossible to evidence) and have assumed.

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:07 am

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Your sensations and feelings, mental awareness, makes up all that is. If you were to expand your consciousness, if you were to be in another "existence", another place that would is actually an illusion, as it would only be the sensations changing, (I am including thought here, as that is part of what you are witnessing, miraculous stream of feeling)

"Should reality exist only in perception, as you have stated, nothing could enter into individual perception, at any time which could expand the infinity of the sentient mind? How could enlightenment occur? "

Buddha answered this question exactly.

"And it is impossible that any one can explain the passing out of one
existence, and the entering into a new existence, or the growth,
increase, and development of consciousness, independent of
corporeality, feeling, perception, and mental formations."

Experiences change, experiences are, what else is? You imply some kind of external reality exists, that would be there outside of observation, something you have no evidence of(is impossible to evidence) and have assumed.
Saying all that without any evidence, other than your words, as to what reality is just does not lay with reasoning. You must provide perceptive reasoning as to why you exist before your opening statement can take effect. You have placed the cart before the horse.

Quoting Buddha does not give you any leverage because you do not know neither the situation, circumstances, nor condition which the Buddha was acting from when he made the statement, being
"you never go out of yourself, it is always your own thoughts that you perceive."
But should it be true
Your sensations and feelings, mental awareness, makes up all that is.
what need would there be, therefore for thought?, for
Your sensations and feelings, mental awareness, makes up all that is
and thinking nor analysis is of no meaning.

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:23 am

I can't provide any evidence, don't need to, I'm not the one assuming some reality outside of observation I have no evidence for.

Your question is what need would there be for thought? ...

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Tomas
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by Tomas » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:31 am

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:I can't provide any evidence, don't need to, I'm not the one assuming some reality outside of observation I have no evidence for.

Your question is what need would there be for thought? ...
Very good, Seeker.

Jufa is a tough nut to crack.
Don't run to your death

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Kunga
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by Kunga » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:59 am

....I am poor and naked, but I am the chief of the nation. We do not want riches but we do want to train our children right. Riches would do us no good. We could not take them with us to the other world. We do not want riches. We want peace and love.

Red Cloud

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by Kunga » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:55 am

Those who know don't talk.
Those who talk don't know.

Close your mouth,
block off your senses,
blunt your sharpness,
untie your knots,
soften your glare,
settle your dust.
This is the primal identity.

Be like the Tao.
It can't be approached or withdrawn from,
benefited or harmed,
honored or brought into disgrace.
It gives itself up continually.
That is why it endures.

~ Lao Tzu (Tao Te Ching, c.56)

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:03 am

Tomas wrote:
SeekerOfWisdom wrote:I can't provide any evidence, don't need to, I'm not the one assuming some reality outside of observation I have no evidence for.

Your question is what need would there be for thought? ...
Very good, Seeker.

Jufa is a tough nut to crack.
I am not assuming anything. You are the one who stated
perception is real,perception is real, the universe exists only in our perception. exists only in our perception.
Evidence does not ask for proof of anything, that is an insane request. Evidence is asking for your foundation of reality which birthed this analysis. Your analysis, not mine. Don't you have a platform of reasoning which you can present which we can travel with you and finally say, Ah, I perceive? Or is your position out of a book which you have adopted the reasoning of the writer of the book?

Yep, that's my question, based upon what, you stated concerning reality, what is there to think about,being your perception is
the universe?

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:08 am

"Existence is beyond the power of words to define
Terms may be used but are none of them absolute.
In the beginning of heaven and earth there were no words
Words came out of the womb of matter;
And whether man dispassionately sees the core of life,
Or passionately sees the surface,
The core and the surface are essentially the same.
Words make them seem different." - Lao Tzu


Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

Dennis Mahar
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:11 am

Jufa,
when the tit for tat falls asleep.

would you be in the area of saying,
the words are a pale imitation,
and yet,
something transmits in the language that's not the language,

is there not a bouyancy coming thru' John that hits the spot,
the sweet spot,

can you 'hear' it?

There seems to be a context:

old heads prevail and the young must run the gauntlet.

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:30 am

jufa wrote:""Existence is beyond the power of words to define
[/color]
You quote Lao Tzu here, while asking me to describe my experience of existence in words. (only works if you have had that related experience)

"Evidence is asking for your foundation of reality which birthed this analysis. Your analysis, not mine. Don't you have a platform of reasoning which you can present which we can travel with you and finally say, Ah, I perceive?"

No, I do not have a platform of reasoning, I don't require one, I know because I have vision. The reason I know this world is, well a dream, is because of the feelings, because of my perception of it. I see it very clearly, words cannot describe this seeing, they can only be used to refer to your own direct experiences, If you haven't directly experienced what I mean by: "complete and utter dream in which almost all logical deductions people have made are based on illusions, your mind believes things and rationalizes them when they are not rational, like one would do in a dream"... then you won't understand what I'm saying, you literally can't properly understand what I'm saying until you have seen it with your own eyes.

"Don't you have a platform of reasoning which you can present which we can travel with you and finally say, Ah, I perceive?"

"And I discovered that-profound truth, so difficult to perceive,
difficult to understand, tranquilizing and sublime, which is not to be
gained by mere reasoning, and is visible only to the wise."
-Buddha

Even Buddha seems to think it can't be gained by mere reasoning, that you need to see it.

Perception is real - not an assumption

The universe (what we call the universe, which is actually sense experience) exists only in our perception - not an assumption

I am not saying that there is no possibility for other things to exist outside of the human sense experience, I do not make that claim.

I claim what I know..... a) sense experience, right here right now, is real.
b) The universe, (or what we call the universe, which is actually sense experience) or everything I've ever known or seen of the universe, exists only in perception, only in sense experience.

The wrong and faulty assumption, which is based on circular reasoning and cannot be evidenced or even supported by correct reasoning, is that there is a physical external world which our brains are interpreting and then relaying to us which makes up our experiences of consciousness.

"What need would there be for thought?"
Thought happens, there is no "need" for anything as you don't have a choice, illusion of free will, you are only witnessing thoughts and actions, which have causes...

You opened your eyes here to see...sense experinece.
The sense experiences lead to the ..thoughts
Those thoughts lead to other... sense experiences
Those sense experiences lead to other.. thoughts
And those thoughts lead to other... sense experiences.

Above is a proof that there is zero control over thought. See how thought and sense experience are one? Flowing without control...
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:35 am

Translate your last post for me Dennis

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:13 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:Jufa,
when the tit for tat falls asleep.

would you be in the area of saying,
the words are a pale imitation,
and yet,
something transmits in the language that's not the language,

is there not a bouyancy coming thru' John that hits the spot,
the sweet spot,

can you 'hear' it?

There seems to be a context:

old heads prevail and the young must run the gauntlet.
Yep Dennis, when you have nothing but other people's philosophy to stand upon, there is no language to defend ones self
but the language that's not the language.
And so
old heads prevail and the young must run the gauntlet.
Nothing more to be accomplished here.


Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:18 pm

How can the thinker enter into another's thought world when thought represents the expression of and individual's experience? And when the expression of intent can only be found in an individual thought being lived because of an individuals awareness of the event of the thought taking place in their individual consciousness? - jufa

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:34 pm

How on earth did you get that I was standing on someone else's particular philosophy? I am standing on different parts from a lot of different philosophies: tao te ching, The Buddha's words, and the Bible would be the most influential philosophies that have contributed to my own, which is now distinctly based on what I think about things. Not to mention all those different ideas I've heard from the many historical philosophers. All of which have influenced my own beliefs.

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:42 pm

"How can the thinker enter into another's thought world when thought represents the expression of and individual's experience? "

This is one of the worst phrased and most general questions I've ever heard.

First you assume I've made the claim "the thinker can enter into another's thought world"...
Then your saying how does this happen when thought is an expression of an individuals experience.

I don't know how the "thinker enter's into another's thought world"..... Shared consciousness is. I Don't presume to know the "how" of the oneness of consciousness.

...Do you know the "how"? Does anyone?

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:46 pm

Going through the mind is a metaphor which become a reality again when stillness has been centered in the mansion of the sub-consciousness.- jufa

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:56 am

"When the mind is still, the whole universe surrenders"
-Lao Tzu


"What difference between yes and no?
What difference between success and failure?
Must you value what others value,
and avoid what others avoid?
How ridiculous!"
-Lao Tzu

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:48 pm

When a man looks into the dark depth of himself, he glimpse, for a second, the reality of the light dwelling camouflaged as darkness. The darkness which is the essence of all things of matter, yet is the light center which is "the way, the truth, and the life" of man's being. And the deeper man descends into the darkness of himself, the more he is lifted up and absorbed into the reality of the meaning "the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof, the world, and they that dwell their in." With this understanding, the purposed of expanding the indwelling light of God out of the darkness eliminates the dimensions of time, space, distance and matter which once held man prisoner to the belief there was a separation between the Word of God and the interpreted words of man. - jufa

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:49 am

What power does anyone have when they can't arrange each moment to unify their thoughts, interpretations, analysis, imagination, and live in the immortality of that unification? What power does thought have when the permanence of the man is not permanent? What knowledge does a man have of good and evil when the two feed off one anothers essence to maintain their substance of singularity? How can a
man live moralistically when his thoughts are divided in sections of morality based on prejudices? And how can a man not know a black hole does not eliminate his essence when he is dependent totally upon his countenance? And no matter how far a man travels to build a perfect social order, when does a man leave his conscious thoughts and renew the spirit of his mind that would automatically demand changes of the old order?

To believe a man can out run his conscious and become conscientious without changing his inbred thoughts is man's greatest deception.
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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:28 am

"To believe consciousness is a product of an external physical world rather than the other way around is the great delusion of man" - John

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by jufa » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:09 am

Conversation of a "Higher Order", to myself, is not defined by what one knows, but how one is able to communicate beyond self-righteousness and pride of believing they are better than. Or ones refusal to take a step backward to that level of understanding they have surpassed and remember the compassion they need from those above them when they were not so high-minded. People of all intelligence make the world go round. To get stuck on a level of believing one is better than, confines one to the prison of that which is better than what? -jufa

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Re: Wise Quotes Collection

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:09 pm

"All knowledge related to the existence of anything external to, or outside of, sense experience is fundamentally flawed as nothing but sense experience has ever been evidenced, known, implied, or supported in any way and it is impossible to do so without circular or flawed reasoning."

"You are the immortal eyes that gaze into the manifestations of consciousness, you have no hand in them." John

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