With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Dennis Mahar »

when we talk about causality, we're talking about phenomenal existence.
the ultimate reality of phenomena is that it depends on causes/conditions.

to speak about absolute existence entails either 'stabs in the dark/ inference' or 'ineffable silence'.

ineffable silence as ground or clearing shows up the nature of the phenomena as a context to understand it.
ineffable silence is the clear mind logic enables.
stuff is sorted.

warmly appreciate your contribution Eric, thanks.
you too BOI.
LiquidRainbow
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by LiquidRainbow »

is the mother of all algorithms an algorithm?
is it form (being)?

Er.. sure the mother of all algorithms is an all encompassing one sure. But if I'm correct in assuming you're looking for the cause of the algorithm and whether it is one or not.

Well, it can be, yes. But does it have to be? No.
Cathy Preston
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Cathy Preston »

Dennis Mahar wrote:when we talk about causality, we're talking about phenomenal existence.
the ultimate reality of phenomena is that it depends on causes/conditions.

to speak about absolute existence entails either 'stabs in the dark/ inference' or 'ineffable silence'.

ineffable silence as ground or clearing shows up the nature of the phenomena as a context to understand it.
ineffable silence is the clear mind logic enables.
stuff is sorted.

warmly appreciate your contribution Eric, thanks.
you too BOI.

Dennis you've completely disregarded nagarjuna's emptiness is empty. It's doesn't make sense to say that Ultimate reality exists and conventional or actual reality doesn't, and we don't have two existences because that would be a duality. It's only through ultimate nonexistence that actual existence makes sense.

Phenomena has no nature, conventionally it has no nature and ultimately it has no nature. Emptiness is empty. What we can say is that the way in which things exist is conditionally.

We realize Nirvana when we realize that things ultimately do not exist.
Beingof1
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Beingof1 »

Eric, I to appreciate your devotion and intellect. You might not get that from my previous words.
I would agree that that is the nature of what is generally labelled cause and effect (what I label syntactic association) emerging in consciousness. Perception is reality for the mind. To draw the conclusion, from that, that no reality exists outside the mind requires further argument. As far as I can determine, it is outside our epistemological limits to ascertain.
But this is all you will ever have, don`t you see that?

Perception happens when memory kicks in and not before. Awareness is never ending. Perception is identifying a single concept or thing and you literally grab it out from the infinite field into focus.

Example:
Start counting the objects in your awareness. You will quickly see there are an infinite amount of objects that are held in your field of awareness. This is a hyper-task because you are aware of a continuum of infinite things/concepts and all done in a finite amount of time.
Things exist in consciousness and appear with perception. This doesn't imply that nothing exists outside consciousness. Things could perfectly well exist in perspective but outside of perception.
Perspective is not fundamentally a property of mind, it's a property of information. Perception is of an order of complexity far greater than that of perspective.
On this particular point we may be tripping over semantics. But I must say; you just made an argument that it requires mind to have the order of complexity(logic).
Why must Mind have a special place in existence?
Perspective could have the special place in that it makes possible differentiation.
Look at your argument re framed Eric:

Star Trek exists:
This Enterprise is a spaceship. True
This Enterprise is a cat. False
The formulation of the propositions into language requires a mind, but this does not imply that Star Trek itself requires a mind.

Can Star Trek be true or false outside of the mind?

Lets take the case of the material universe as it is understood by common sense.
The galaxies of the universe are more than can be counted at this time. True.
The galaxies exist. True.
Star Trek exists. True

I could go on but I hope you see the point. You can use this argument to propose literally anything at all because you can conceive of it. You can propose universal mind, little green men or inter dimensional beings. I simply reversed engineered your argument. If logic exists outside of the mind then all conceptual possibilities are true.
As a side note- The "No things" described above is still an existence. The existence of "No things" like that outside of consciousness still implies the validity of bivalent logic.
If an existence without limits (undifferentiated being) exists then it interacts with the Mind.
Mind necessarily is included in a limitless existence- or else that existence is not limitless.
Mind would then be an unlimited existence interacting with itself.
If an unlimited existence interacts with itself to produce differentiation, then it must produce all differentiation.
An unlimited existence is infinitely divisible into differentiated states.
A fixed differentiated state, and if all such states exist then all are fixed, has a set of true propositions which describe it.
This is a beautiful argument. You just postulated that mind is universal.

I agree - mind is universal.
Cathy Preston
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Cathy Preston »

Eric wrote:As a side note- The "No things" described above is still an existence. The existence of "No things" like that outside of consciousness still implies the validity of bivalent logic.
If an existence without limits (undifferentiated being) exists then it interacts with the Mind.
Mind necessarily is included in a limitless existence- or else that existence is not limitless.
Mind would then be an unlimited existence interacting with itself.
If an unlimited existence interacts with itself to produce differentiation, then it must produce all differentiation.
An unlimited existence is infinitely divisible into differentiated states.
A fixed differentiated state, and if all such states exist then all are fixed, has a set of true propositions which describe it.
The totality of existence (things that exist conditionally) = existence without limits
Mind is conditioned thus included, Mind is finite as all things that exist are (that which exists exists conditionally)
conditioned things are all that exists, no differentiation required.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Dennis you've completely disregarded nagarjuna's emptiness is empty. It's doesn't make sense to say that Ultimate reality exists and conventional or actual reality doesn't, and we don't have two existences because that would be a duality. It's only through ultimate nonexistence that actual existence makes sense.

Phenomena has no nature, conventionally it has no nature and ultimately it has no nature. Emptiness is empty. What we can say is that the way in which things exist is conditionally.

We realize Nirvana when we realize that things ultimately do not exist.

Cathy Preston
I didn't say what you said I said.
Beingof1
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Beingof1 »

Cathy Preston wrote: The totality of existence (things that exist conditionally) = existence without limits
Mind is conditioned thus included, Mind is finite as all things that exist are (that which exists exists conditionally)
conditioned things are all that exists, no differentiation required.
If the totality of existence Is all things that exist conditionally without limits, the totality itself is conditional and therefore limited and not boundless.

It is bounded by the conditional things that exist. The totality is then made subject to its internal conditions.


There is no framework - there is only the eternal stream of consciousness. Once one surrenders all concepts, all ideas of enlightenment perish and all attempts at holding or grasping a framework the mind stretches to an infinite dimension. Thought is allowed free access and not restrained because belief in limits and mistakes caps the flow.

Realize you cannot grasp or model reality and you release a steady rush of uplifting energy. If you do have a question in and concerning the temporal the answer immediately appears to the mind. It is more surrender than figuring - give up and you win understanding by realizing you already do.
ForbidenRea

Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by ForbidenRea »

Jipper's soul mate. I think he's found his mark in the virtual book of lamp post bull shit. 0men.
Cathy Preston
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Cathy Preston »

Beingof1 wrote: If the totality of existence Is all things that exist conditionally without limits, the totality itself is conditional and therefore limited and not boundless.
The Totality being absolutely everything is without boundary and unconditioned.
Beingof1 wrote:It is bounded by the conditional things that exist. The totality is then made subject to its internal conditions.
Those boundaries are the way the mind works not actual boundaries, the fact that we can break everything down into parts (that rely on each other) means that it is actually One thing.
,
Beingof1 wrote:There is no framework - there is only the eternal stream of consciousness. Once one surrenders all concepts, all ideas of enlightenment perish and all attempts at holding or grasping a framework the mind stretches to an infinite dimension. Thought is allowed free access and not restrained because belief in limits and mistakes caps the flow.
Has your mind stretched to infinite dimension?
Beingof1 wrote:Realize you cannot grasp or model reality and you release a steady rush of uplifting energy. If you do have a question in and concerning the temporal the answer immediately appears to the mind. It is more surrender than figuring - give up and you win understanding by realizing you already do.
Beingof1 you're thoughts are a very popular theme, but from my own experiences it is extremely evident that logic can never be disregarded, the Universe is designed to be understood and through that understanding we become integrated thoroughly into the Whole. It's true clearing the mind of superficial thought is very powerful, the way one keeps it clear is through logic. We could even say the raft to cross the river, is a raft of no-mind, but once crossed we put that raft down, the Infinite has a need for minds capable of rationale thought. Every mystical experience should be held under the light of reason, because that is how we interpret them correctly.
Dennis wrote:I didn't say what you said I said.
My apologies, what are you getting at then?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Dennis Mahar »

emptiness is a logical progression that acts as a pointer.
it is meant to trigger a recognition.

it is a context or viewpoint to live from.

it is a context that ceases to give phenomena 'real' existence.
existence doesn't switch off upon realising emptiness however.

The mind has a way about it.
It likes to have a nice story to decorate existence with.
It 'knows' its object by designating meaning on it.

reading about emptiness is for most people like standing outside a restaurant looking at the menu pasted on the window.
only a few actually go in and 'taste' it.

how can lemon meringue pie with Earl Grey ice cream be tasted from reading the menu?
Beingof1
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Beingof1 »

ForbidenRea wrote:Jipper's soul mate. I think he's found his mark in the virtual book of lamp post bull shit. 0men.
Very insightful. You might be a world class sage with this kind of penetrating insight.
Beingof1
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Beingof1 »

Cathy Preston wrote:
Beingof1 wrote: If the totality of existence Is all things that exist conditionally without limits, the totality itself is conditional and therefore limited and not boundless.
The Totality being absolutely everything is without boundary and unconditioned.
You are not following the logic. If the totality exists by things - it is bounded by each and every thing.
Beingof1 wrote:It is bounded by the conditional things that exist. The totality is then made subject to its internal conditions.
Those boundaries are the way the mind works not actual boundaries, the fact that we can break everything down into parts (that rely on each other) means that it is actually One thing.
If the totality is only one thing - it is bounded by not being two things. The totality is not a thing because it does not exist.

The totality is not made of the sum of its parts, it is not subject to being only what it can be and it is stretching the envelope of possibilities. That which is impossible today is experienced tomorrow - that - is the totality.
,
Beingof1 wrote:There is no framework - there is only the eternal stream of consciousness. Once one surrenders all concepts, all ideas of enlightenment perish and all attempts at holding or grasping a framework the mind stretches to an infinite dimension. Thought is allowed free access and not restrained because belief in limits and mistakes caps the flow.
Has your mind stretched to infinite dimension?
Yes; as it is in a continual state of expansion.
Beingof1 wrote:Realize you cannot grasp or model reality and you release a steady rush of uplifting energy. If you do have a question in and concerning the temporal the answer immediately appears to the mind. It is more surrender than figuring - give up and you win understanding by realizing you already do.
Beingof1 you're thoughts are a very popular theme,
Um - no. I did not get my understanding the way you think I did. There are very, very few that allow for expansion.
but from my own experiences it is extremely evident that logic can never be disregarded, the Universe is designed to be understood and through that understanding we become integrated thoroughly into the Whole.
"The universe is designed to be understood" is what is keeping you from enlightenment. You cannot logically say " I understand reality."
It's true clearing the mind of superficial thought is very powerful, the way one keeps it clear is through logic. We could even say the raft to cross the river, is a raft of no-mind, but once crossed we put that raft down, the Infinite has a need for minds capable of rationale thought. Every mystical experience should be held under the light of reason, because that is how we interpret them correctly.
Actually, logic can only clear us of delusion. Logic cannot bring us to realization.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Actually, logic can only clear us of delusion. Logic cannot bring us to realization.
yeah, well that means the focus is off the stories which constitute the havingness of mind.

mind is the story.

catching the mind in the act.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Actually, logic can only clear us of delusion. Logic cannot bring us to realization.
That looks like misinformation.
The realisation is the conclusion afforded by the logical investigation,
comes out of the investigation.
the conclusion is the logic, the realisation is the logic.

to say the logical analysis leads up to a point of insufficiency at which point it fails, and then the realisation has to be intuited is nonsense.

the conclusion that logic cannot bring us to realisation is an amazingly stupid thing to broadcast.

If Sherlock assembled all the facts of the situation in a meticulous, ordered fashion, thereby disclosing the killer,
and he turned around to Watson and said,
I've intuited the killer, dear Watson.
Watson would have no choice but to commit Holmes to a lengthy sojourn in an insane asylum, probably for the term of his natural life.
ForbidenRea

Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by ForbidenRea »

i I read the bible up to the age of twelve.

I've since been a sage.

What briddleth the tongue?

That was my only thought; considering I am the totality.
Cathy Preston
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Cathy Preston »

The Totality which includes absolutely everything we can see and everything we can't see would be bounded by what?

The Totality is everything existent and nonexistent. Does it make sense to say you, I and the world doesn't exist?

The potential for the original emerges when we let go of wishing it's something it's not.

If we don't exist, to say you're mind has expanded makes no sense.

The only way we can understand reality is logically.
Beingof1
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Beingof1 »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Actually, logic can only clear us of delusion. Logic cannot bring us to realization.
yeah, well that means the focus is off the stories which constitute the havingness of mind.
mind is the story.
catching the mind in the act.
And in your very next post we will catch your mind in the act.

BO1Actually, logic can only clear us of delusion. Logic cannot bring us to realization.

Dennis:That looks like misinformation.
It is not an optical illusion - it just looks like one.
The realisation is the conclusion afforded by the logical investigation,
comes out of the investigation.
Yes - that is what I said.
the conclusion is the logic, the realisation is the logic.
If the realization is the logic then you can tell us how to identify the totality. A=A
to say the logical analysis leads up to a point of insufficiency at which point it fails, and then the realisation has to be intuited is nonsense.
I did not say or use the word intuition once. I said the realization occurs that logic cannot identify the totality or reality. If the totality or reality cannot be identified according to the law of identity it is therefore beyond logical frameworks.

Did you follow the logic?
the conclusion that logic cannot bring us to realisation is an amazingly stupid thing to broadcast.
What is amazingly stupid is to not understand what logic is while attempting to make the case it is essential.

If you can identify reality then by all means - do it, and you will demonstrate my stupidity. If you cannot - you are simply playing mind games like a drama queen all over again.
If Sherlock assembled all the facts of the situation in a meticulous, ordered fashion, thereby disclosing the killer,
and he turned around to Watson and said,
I've intuited the killer, dear Watson.
Watson would have no choice but to commit Holmes to a lengthy sojourn in an insane asylum, probably for the term of his natural life.
As an outsider looking in you think that reality can be compared to a killer in a novel?

To say this is a poor analogy is an understatement of a magnitude that is of epic proportion.


Cathy Preston wrote:The Totality which includes absolutely everything we can see and everything we can't see would be bounded by what?
Bounded by having to have things as its parts.
The Totality is everything existent and nonexistent. Does it make sense to say you, I and the world doesn't exist?
You changed your definition of what the totality is. Now it is things nonexistent and this is exactly what I was driving at.

Ultimately no - I nor the world exists. I and the world exist because I perceive the world as a concept. The world only exists because I hold it as a concept in my mind. It is like the belief in national boundaries. They only exist as concepts as there is no defining line in nature as to where one country begins and the other ends.
The potential for the original emerges when we let go of wishing it's something it's not.
Yup - and you should start doing that.
If we don't exist, to say you're mind has expanded makes no sense.
That is because you are still trapped in yours. You think there is a barrier you cannot escape known as the you.
The only way we can understand reality is logically.
You cannot understand reality and this is true understanding.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Your nature is experiential ability.
ontologically, life shows up as an experience.
you form a representation or concept of that experience.
what happened and the story about what happened.
the story about what happened generates a set of rules that has you running along a track like a railway carraige.

setting up 'wholes' like totality, universe, god etc are mere conventional designations.
these 'wholes' are found to be imputed on parts.
the parts themselves break down.
Cathy Preston
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Cathy Preston »

beingof1 wrote:You changed your definition of what the totality is. Now it is things nonexistent and this is exactly what I was driving at.

Ultimately no - I nor the world exists. I and the world exist because I perceive the world as a concept. The world only exists because I hold it as a concept in my mind. It is like the belief in national boundaries. They only exist as concepts as there is no defining line in nature as to where one country begins and the other ends.
I never changed my definition I always said it was absolutely everything, What does absolutely everything mean to you?

The world exists as it exists with or without you or I, the boundaries are concepts. It seems for you the world is a concept, yet the boundaries are real?
beingof1 wrote:You cannot understand reality and this is true understanding.
It's very clear why you would make this statement.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I never changed my definition I always said it was absolutely everything, What does absolutely everything mean to you?
It's all well and good to have this logical construct.
to have it sorted. to have it pointed out.
The mental object.
To have the context.

What does it DO.
What effects generate out of it.
Beingof1
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Beingof1 »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Your nature is experiential ability.
ontologically, life shows up as an experience.
1) Yes; except it is not ability it is reality. Ability gives the idea of an inability to experience. It is impossible not to experience.
2) If you are saying life and experience are the same thing I agree.
you form a representation or concept of that experience.
what happened and the story about what happened.
the story about what happened generates a set of rules that has you running along a track like a railway carraige.
I agree; except that I know all rules have been transcended and are therefore not absolutes.
setting up 'wholes' like totality, universe, god etc are mere conventional designations.
these 'wholes' are found to be imputed on parts.
the parts themselves break down.
Yes, I agree that all concepts are merely models and not the reality. There is but one whole that can be divided infinitely while remaining one whole. That is why all logical constructs fail to embrace reality.

One divides itself into two wholes while remaining One. This defies A=A yet is reality.


Cathy Preston wrote:
beingof1 wrote:You changed your definition of what the totality is. Now it is things nonexistent and this is exactly what I was driving at.

Ultimately no - I nor the world exists. I and the world exist because I perceive the world as a concept. The world only exists because I hold it as a concept in my mind. It is like the belief in national boundaries. They only exist as concepts as there is no defining line in nature as to where one country begins and the other ends.
I never changed my definition I always said it was absolutely everything, What does absolutely everything mean to you?
You need to check again.
First you said
"The totality of existence (things that exist conditionally) = existence without limits
Mind is conditioned thus included, Mind is finite as all things that exist are (that which exists exists conditionally)
conditioned things are all that exists, no differentiation required."

Then you said:
"The Totality is everything existent and nonexistent."
The world exists as it exists with or without you or I
Show me a world without you and prove what you just said.
the boundaries are concepts.
Every thing is a concept once it is defined to any degree.
It seems for you the world is a concept, yet the boundaries are real?
Read again what I wrote because you got it completely wrong.

beingof1 wrote:You cannot understand reality and this is true understanding.
It's very clear why you would make this statement.
Its very clear you do not understand that statement.
Cathy Preston
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Cathy Preston »

Beingof1 wrote:You need to check again.
First you said
"The totality of existence (things that exist conditionally) = existence without limits
Mind is conditioned thus included, Mind is finite as all things that exist are (that which exists exists conditionally)
conditioned things are all that exists, no differentiation required."

That says The Totality of existence = existence without limits, note this does not say the Totality is existence alone.
Yes, the way in which things exist is conditionally.

Beingof1 wrote:Show me a world without you and prove what you just said.
Well according to all kinds of records I was born in a hospital in Dawson Creek, BC, both my folks are dead and we inhabited the same world, they are gone world is not. When I go to sleep at night the world disappears but many workers work through the night so that I can do my job in the morning. I also just recently attended the birth of a baby girl, there was no doubt she entered the world. This body gave birth to a son many many years ago, almost dying in the process. I've seen a few dead bodies, even catching the moment once, the last breath.
beingof1 wrote:Read again what I wrote because you got it completely wrong.
beingof1 wrote:Cathy Preston wrote:The Totality which includes absolutely everything we can see and everything we can't see would be bounded by what?



Bounded by having to have things as its parts.

You are not following the logic. If the totality exists by things - it is bounded by each and every thing.
Then you go on to say the that the world is a concept, but for some reason you remain fixed on this idea that things have real boundaries.

!
Dennis Mahar
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Dennis Mahar »

When we love wisdom we are actually loving the effects generated out of wisdom.
Wisdom is realised out of logical investigation.
One doesn't 'transcend' the logical investigation.
One is the experiencer experiencing the conclusion of the logical investigation.
The conclusion doesn't have independent existence from the mind.
The mind is the conclusion of whatever the mind has concluded.

Emptiness, labelled as the perfect wisdom,
has to be proved experientially.
It is not a belief.

It's truth or its mettle or its 'experiential ability' is only found in the experience or Life.

In an experience, for instance, of 'angry neighbour' is where emptiness exists.

The inauthentic position that experience is independent of mind cannot be maintained.
'World' is mind substance only.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by Dennis Mahar »

We are in the experience of 'angry neighbour' at present.
The muslim brothers are 'up in arms' about a perceived slight of their prophet.

'channelling the zeitgeist' of religion of whatever variety amounts to suffering.

Any worldhood, be it religion, politics is Story or mind substance only.

Religion is empty and meaningless.

on 911,
2 planes smashed in to a building.
right there was a possibility for a logical investigation that could have unravelled Story.

How is it possible to have a rational conversation in the face of emotional investment.
What is being protected?

The condition 'angry neighbour' defies logic.
jufa
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Re: With only one consciousness, reality cannot be confirmed

Post by jufa »

I suggest the pinching of ones self to see if the absolute I of oneself can feel that "reality cannot be confirmed" absolutely in you.

Bet the touch and pain felt was not in the form of absolute nor comprehension of words to any one but you. Yet, although you can testify to the reality of the touch and pain, they are not the reality of your awareness of them. Why? because their existence is entirely depended whether you exist absolutely or not.

You are the real absolute of you and what you are aware of.

What is not real nor absolute, therefore, and which cannot be confirmed is your evaluation of that which you cannot define wholly.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.c om
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