Masochism

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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brad walker
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Masochism

Post by brad walker »

Phillip K. Dick, [i]VALIS[/i] wrote:In his study of the form that masochism takes in modern man, Theodor Reik puts forth an interesting view. Masochism is more widespread than we realize because it takes an attenuated form. The basic dynamism is as follows: a human being sees something bad which is coming as inevitable. There is no way he can halt the process; he is helpless. This sense of helplessness generates a need to gain some control over the impending pain--any kind of control will do. This makes sense; the subjective feeling of helplessness is more painful than the impending misery. So the person seizes control over the situation in the only way open to him: he connives to bring on the impending misery; he hastens it. This activity on his part promotes the false impression that he enjoys pain. Not so. It is simply that he cannot any longer endure the helplessness or the supposed helplessness. But in the process of gaining control over the inevitable misery he becomes, automatically, anhedonic (which means being unable or unwilling to enjoy pleasure.) Anhedonia sets in stealthily. Over the years it takes control of him. For example, he learns to defer gratification; this is a step in the dismal process of anhedonia. In learning to defer gratification he experiences a sense of self-mastery; he has become stoic, disciplined; he does not give way to impulse. He has control. Control over himself in terms of his impulses and control over the external situation. He is a controlled and controlling person. Pretty soon he has branched out and is controlling other people, as part of the situation. He becomes a manipulator. Of course, he is not consciously aware of this; all he intends to do is lessen his own sense of impotence. But in his task of lessening this sense, he insidiously overpowers the freedom of others. Yet, he derives no pleasure from this, no positive psychological gain; all his gains are essentially negative.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Masochism

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Although there are some interesting insights there, there is also a rather vulgar blending of categories that are in different spheres of being.

An envious man suffers from helplessness and is akin to a drowning man. He looks to other men as sources of floatation, but they throw him off like the nuisance he is. His helplessness and shame deepen into mindless anger, and he learns to focus on the transient pleasure of sabotage. Sabotage is the much more pleasurable alternative of helplessness and powerlessness. The kind of man I just described is indeed masochistic.

The purpose of stoicism, at least how I practise it, is to re-establish the purity that one had lost in childhood.

Healthy children are easily delighted by simple things, but gradually they become wounded, demoralized and resort to common vices, such as alcohol.

Stoicism functions then to purge, to cleanse, and to discharge things that were acquired as a result of the very ignorance of childhood.

Enlightenment is like childhood minus the ignorance.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Masochism

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Cory

"Enlightenment is like childhood minus the ignorance."

Enlightenment is like childhood before the pretense of knowledge.

Complete thoughtlessness, complete detachment, (Like a young toddler seeing everything for the first time) is enlightenment.

This leads to complete realization that all experience flows as one,(thoughts,dreams,this world, death,rebirth is just changing sensual experience) and is made of the same "stuff", flowing from a common source.

I'd say enlightenment is like adulthood but with more ignorance (thoughtlessness counts as ignorance although it was wisdom that brought it about)...... and acceptance of the things you already know but can't admit that you are ignorant to.


brad

I like the post and can relate to it, you can too otherwise you wouldn't have posted, as I have unconsciously been manipulating the people around me since childhood, even in the sense of telling my mum I love her a bunch of times when I want something :p

This leads to laziness and trying to make everyone do everything for you while you benefit and sit back, it is negative if one has that feeling of dominance they need to uphold, but being disinterested and generally unaffected by circumstance also leads to not caring about appearance/judgement, being "below" others and not caring what you appear to be while still using them to do everything for you hahah.
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mental vagrant
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Re: Masochism

Post by mental vagrant »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Cory

"Enlightenment is like childhood minus the ignorance."

Enlightenment is like childhood before the pretense of knowledge.


Complete thoughtlessness, complete detachment, (Like a young toddler seeing everything for the first time) is enlightenment.

This leads to complete realization that all experience flows as one,(thoughts,dreams,this world, death,rebirth is just changing sensual experience) and is made of the same "stuff", flowing from a common source.

I'd say enlightenment is like adulthood but with more ignorance (thoughtlessness counts as ignorance although it was wisdom that brought it about)...... and acceptance of the things you already know but can't admit that you are ignorant to.


brad

I like the post and can relate to it, you can too otherwise you wouldn't have posted, as I have unconsciously been manipulating the people around me since childhood, even in the sense of telling my mum I love her a bunch of times when I want something :p

This leads to laziness and trying to make everyone do everything for you while you benefit and sit back, it is negative if one has that feeling of dominance they need to uphold, but being disinterested and generally unaffected by circumstance also leads to not caring about appearance/judgement, being "below" others and not caring what you appear to be while still using them to do everything for you hahah.
Am i the only person that thought this hilarious. I'm not digging into you by the way.
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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Masochism

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

"Enlightenment is like childhood minus the ignorance" is bullshit, there is always ignorance, enlightenment is much closer to simply recognizing how ignorant you are, there is no absence of ignorance.

* If that was the part you found hilarious? As it was highlighted
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mental vagrant
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Re: Masochism

Post by mental vagrant »

Enlightenment is popularized culture.

The irony is the following, childhood is a noun which can like most words be interpreted in different ways, as in, it comprises of different parts, so; the part of life as child, the child experience, baby skin winter-wear. I read the highlighted as being just the experience, being equivalent to ignorance, therefor by removing ignorance, removing child.
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Consistency
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Re: Masochism

Post by Consistency »

Dreams do come true, if we only wish hard enough, You can have anything in life if you will sacrifice everything else for it. James M. Barrie

Masochism = survival?
professional of energy.
michaeljee

Re: Masochism

Post by michaeljee »

Hi That is great, That is awesome information, i was also looking for this.
Regards
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Masochism

Post by Dan Rowden »

Oh, you're welcome, you tedious fucking spammer. I left your post this time as a potential lesson to others of how not to be a transparent, tedious fucking spammer. Probably a waste of time, but, hell, who knows.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Masochism

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Great Dan, That was an awesome lesson, I was also pondering it.
Regards

PS you are masochistic, not?
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brad walker
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Re: Masochism

Post by brad walker »

I think I'm not the only one who has recently found unusual inspiration. I've learned to not toy with the occult.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Masochism

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Are you going to explain or does it need to remain occulted?

To my mind many occult practices employ powerful psychological "hooks" already present in the mind. Although I'm not sure how far reaching their effects can be, it's obvious they can backfire badly when stirred up experimentally.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Masochism

Post by Dan Rowden »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:"Enlightenment is like childhood minus the ignorance" is bullshit, there is always ignorance, enlightenment is much closer to simply recognizing how ignorant you are, there is no absence of ignorance.
That is actually inaccurate. There is no ignorance in enlightenment because there is no thought of things to "know". You can't have ignorance when there's nothing to know. I suspect this may be more what you're trying to get at, but are misstating it. Of course this is dependent to some degree on what we intend by the concept of "knowledge" and the context in which we're applying it.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Masochism

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

There is no delusion in enlightenment, but being ignorant to something means not knowing about it. We experience and understand only through direct experience, we are still wholly ignorant. At least we aren't as ignorant as to think this form is our self and aren't fearing death. Those are delusions.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Masochism

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:There is no delusion in enlightenment, but being ignorant to something means not knowing about it.
If you're using the terms delusion and enlightenment like Buddhism normally applies them, you should also use the term ignorance in the way Buddhism applies it (and there ignorance & delusion mean the same). Otherwise you're just blowing smoke out of our ass. That would be not delusion or ignorance by the way. Just retardation.
ROB

Re: Masochism

Post by ROB »

I always refer back to my child-state-ego, and find the answers there.

;)
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