Causation

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:28 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:take electricity.
can't see it, can't touch it, can't smell it, can't hear it etc



Isn't lightning visable electricity ?
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:43 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:I'm sure we can make something up.



It has something to do with light,
and physical phenomena is a dense form of light.

So,
if we could see our true nature,
it would be luminous,
like a clear light.

This (material phenomena),
is the illusion.
All is of the same substance. (Light)

Or is that my bullshit theory ?
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Re: Causation

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:44 pm

lightning is an effect.

Buddhahood is an effect,
a condition brought about by the elimination of errors in reasoning.
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:55 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:Buddhahood is an effect,
a condition brought about by the elimination of errors in reasoning.


But if we ultimately do not exist,
then who errors ?
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Re: Causation

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:58 pm

then who errors ?


a possibility for existence.
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:05 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:
a possibility for existence.



That doesn't make sense,
you mean this illusion makes mistakes ?
Can a dreamer make mistakes in a dream ?
If so,
are there real consequenses ?
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Re: Causation

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:44 pm

a display of nature, appearance.
Buddhists call it a display of Buddha Nature and a Buddha has realised 'what's so'.
Buddhahood wins hands down.

Think of it as a movie and you are an actor.
Shakespeare noted,
all the world's a stage and we are players upon it.

So, what's your act Sandy?
your possibility?
your project?
your winning formula?
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:06 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:a display of nature, appearance.
Yes, but what i am asking you is why form appears ? Why don't we remain formless ? Why is emptiness form ?
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Re: Causation

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:36 am

What's your winning formula?

don't burn the toast
clean knickers every day
always say please
turn the other cheek
shiny shoes
reject everybody before they reject you, get in first
money in the bank
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Re: Causation

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:09 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:Sherlock knew motive was key to arrive at the who. He wanted the who. He didn't dwell on the psychology of the who that generated the motive. Sherlock used inference or constructed models for possible suspects and these models didn't find the who, they only narrowed the field of possibilities. He looked for opportunity, who was where and when: deduction.


You seem to make some kind of distinction between who/motive and who/psyche. Or between "psychology of the who" and "field of possibilities". This is a meaningless distinction, made by you and then abolished by you. And then revealed it was meaningless to begin with! And of course it is. But did this exercise solve anything?
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:34 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:What's your winning formula?



Compassion
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Re: Causation

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:06 am

For human beings motive is implicit.
the why and a who.
Sherlock wanted the who and looked for the opportunity, who was where and when.

Kunga asks:
Yes, but what i am asking you is why form appears ? Why don't we remain formless ? Why is emptiness form ?


She is inferring 'true nature' has a motive,
next she'll want the who,
then we'll wind up with a God and a game plan.
We'll have a religion and a bunch of prayers.

There are no reasons.

Compassion


How does compassion win hands down strategically.
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:38 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:How does compassion win hands down strategically.


How does hatred,
greed and violence win?
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Re: Causation

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:17 am

So, you've got a duality set-up.

compassion cuts out hatred, greed and violence.
an antidote to existential terror.
a winning formula,
a practice,
an existential activity.
a doingness for being in relation to other.
a strategy.
a motive.
what's the payoff for you.
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:43 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:what's the payoff for you.
,


I am less greedy,hate-filled and violent.
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Re: Causation

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:16 pm

America wins basketball Gold.
thank God for slavery.
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:04 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:She is inferring 'true nature' has a motive,
next she'll want the who,
then we'll wind up with a God and a game plan.
We'll have a religion and a bunch of prayers.

There are no reasons.



No,
I just want to know the truth. Why do you say there are no reasons for the formless to form?

Have you ever read the Buddhas explaination?
We were once composed of clear light. Google the Agganna Sutta.
desire is the cause of our true nature devolving into course material.
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Re: Causation

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:44 pm

Is compassion desirous?

A reason for true nature hasn't been given.
Desire is given as a reason for a predicament.
That desire is an error of reasoning.
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Re: Causation

Postby brad walker » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:16 pm

What's the value of abstractions of causality? Why not accept it as a given like awareness as part of submission?
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Re: Causation

Postby movingalways » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:40 pm

Dennis: I think what you're getting at Pam is you're studiously withdrawing your projections.


Very well put.
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Re: Causation

Postby movingalways » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:54 pm

Kunga wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:She is inferring 'true nature' has a motive,
next she'll want the who,
then we'll wind up with a God and a game plan.
We'll have a religion and a bunch of prayers.

There are no reasons.



No,
I just want to know the truth. Why do you say there are no reasons for the formless to form?

Have you ever read the Buddhas explaination?
We were once composed of clear light. Google the Agganna Sutta.
desire is the cause of our true nature devolving into course material.


Kunga, it is true that desire, ignorance, causes the material, but what causes desire? Ultimately, the mind arrives at silence of cause. Nibbana.
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Re: Causation

Postby Tomas » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:23 am

The Buddhist Phony wrote:America wins basketball Gold.
thank God for slavery.

Yes. Australia should be proud that there are Aborigine Reservations.
Don't run to your death
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Re: Causation

Postby Dennis Mahar » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:57 am

Very well put.


Pam, the reasoning goes something like this.

the problem is the projection of a self-image,
running counter to one's primordial nature not-self,
this self-image projected into the world, affected by constant buffeting, requiring constant makeover, demanding compliance from others,
gets angry, frustrated, crestfallen, needy because its expectations are rarely met,
and falls deeper and deeper into inauthenticity and suffering.
the self-image is actually a projected winning formula that is meant to win hands down but sustains some wins and some losses that constitute the up and down of samsaric existence.
One is tied to the self-image and hangs on grimly, believing it exists inherently.
It's the story. the self narrative, the activity of selfing.


projecting a self-image of a compassionate nature, bringing the possibility of virtue into play,
generates peace, harmonious relations, has one relatively free of affective emotions like anger, fear, grief,
generates moods of enthusiasm, joy, a bit like winning the lottery.
It's noble in nature and not to be dismissed lightly.
It does a power of good in the community.
Nevertheless it is a self-image that one ties one self to, and can be easily defeated if expectations are not met.
it is an intelligent step in the direction of eliminating suffering but is vulnerable.

The activity of Bodhisatva involves the prior realisation of emptiness (not-self),
projecting compassion into the world,
in order to draw those suffering into a greater possibility.
the safeguard for the bodhisatva pattern is that realisation of emptiness.
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:50 am

Taking the Bodhisattva Vow as a student doesn't make one a Bodhisattva, although you take it seriously, and have bodhicitta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhicitta), it's still a practice until perfected. There are many levels of Bodhisattva (10, I think).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_%28Buddhism%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_vow
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Re: Causation

Postby Kunga » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:36 am

movingalways wrote:Kunga, it is true that desire, ignorance, causes the material, but what causes desire? Ultimately, the mind arrives at silence of cause. Nibbana.



Greed, caused desire (according to the Agganna Sutta/Buddha).http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Agganna_Sutta
But I agree that trying to figure some things out can be fruitless,
and only lead one to more unanswerable questions,
thus prolonging ignorance, when the energy can be used for other more liberating and useful activity.

Like if someone shot you, would you be more concerned knowing who fired the shot,
or try to save yourself from bleeding to death ?
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