Regarding Einstein

SharpestNight · Post by **SharpestNight** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:32 am

Having read a large portion of this site, I've determined that the place to begin my attack is the following question:

Albert Einstein, although gifted with a prodigious intellect, had a very poor relationship with Reality. The highest he ever reached in this relationship was a sense of awe and wonder at the Universe

How does the genius differ from this?

Gurrb · Post by **Gurrb** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:16 pm

often, it is better to be on no path rather than the wrong one. einstein helped many others 'understand' the universe. he achieved more understanding than anyone on this forum.

the 'genius' differs because they are under the illusion of understanding. einstein took a socratic point of view about things.

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:28 am

I deal with this issue directly, including observations about Einstein, in a recent blog: Expanding the Limits of Genius.

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Jamesh · Post by **Jamesh** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:56 pm

The reason I have a soft spot for Einstein is his rejection of quantum theories that abandoned causality. To me his strong belief in causality points to a philosophically advanced mind, not a philosophical genius, but still advanced relative to other scientists. I still feel he saw more deeply the nature of reality than 99% of noted scientists since, and it was this that drove his rejection of illogical theories like the Copenhagen interpretation. [I’ve not read The World As I See It]

“Physicists I’ve met who knew Einstein told me they found his thinking slow compared to the stars of the day. While he was competent enough with the basic mathematical tools of physics, many other physicists surrounding him in Berlin and Princeton were better at it. So what accounted for his genius? In retrospect, I believe what allowed Einstein to achieve so much was primarily a moral quality. He simply cared far more than most of his colleagues that the laws of physics have to explain everything in nature coherently and consistently. As a result he was acutely sensitive to flaws and contradictions in the logical structure of physical theories”
Lee Smolin

DimWitted · Post by **DimWitted** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:19 pm

If Einstein doesn't fit the definition of a "Genius" then I wouldn't want to be one. The statement that Einstein isn't a genius because he "failed to fully understand reality" is downright ridiculous. To assume that anyone "fully understands reality" is pure folly. Einstein's theories of relativity improved mankind's understanding of reality. If there was a genius who "fully understood reality" then why didn't they postulate special and general relativity? Why is it that this genius hasn't done the rest of us a favor and unified physics. If they fully understand reality then presumably they know how gravity works on the quantum level. I for one would like to know, so would a true genius do me a favor and complete humanities understanding of physics. To think that you fully understand reality is delusional. Anyone who has some studied physics and doesn't feel a profound sense of awe, doesn't understand the beauty and complexity of the universe that surrounds them.

Cahoot · Post by **Cahoot** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:24 pm

DimWitted wrote:If Einstein doesn't fit the definition of a "Genius" then I wouldn't want to be one. The statement that Einstein isn't a genius because he "failed to fully understand reality" is downright ridiculous. To assume that anyone "fully understands reality" is pure folly. Einstein's theories of relativity improved mankind's understanding of reality. If there was a genius who "fully understood reality" then why didn't they postulate special and general relativity? Why is it that this genius hasn't done the rest of us a favor and unified physics. If they fully understand reality then presumably they know how gravity works on the quantum level. I for one would like to know, so would a true genius do me a favor and complete humanities understanding of physics. To think that you fully understand reality is delusional. Anyone who has some studied physics and doesn't feel a profound sense of awe, doesn't understand the beauty and complexity of the universe that surrounds them.

Try adjusting your comprehension of one who "fully understands reality" to include:

- one who does not grant you favors, who is not delusional, who does not write mathematical formulas and yet who does feel a sense of awe, beauty and complexity.

With average manual dexterity he could probably become an adequate plumber.

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:50 pm

Jamesh wrote:The reason I have a soft spot for Einstein is his rejection of quantum theories that abandoned causality. To me his strong belief in causality points to a philosophically advanced mind, not a philosophical genius, but still advanced relative to other scientists. I still feel he saw more deeply the nature of reality than 99% of noted scientists since, and it was this that drove his rejection of illogical theories like the Copenhagen interpretation. [I’ve not read The World As I See It]

“Physicists I’ve met who knew Einstein told me they found his thinking slow compared to the stars of the day. While he was competent enough with the basic mathematical tools of physics, many other physicists surrounding him in Berlin and Princeton were better at it. So what accounted for his genius? In retrospect, I believe what allowed Einstein to achieve so much was primarily a moral quality. He simply cared far more than most of his colleagues that the laws of physics have to explain everything in nature coherently and consistently. As a result he was acutely sensitive to flaws and contradictions in the logical structure of physical theories”
Lee Smolin

Agreed, Einstein was more philosophically aware than most of his colleagues. But that isn't saying much.

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jupiviv · Post by **jupiviv** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:41 pm

Einstein had a little genius, and that was enough to make him able to do what he did. If he had considerably more genius he wouldn't have remained within science. But people only admire genius to the extent it can produce something that appeals to their delusions and desires. They aren't so much interested in genius as in the selfish pleasure they get from idol-worship and being amazed by certain things.

Most people would place Newton, Kierkegaard, Shakespeare, Bach and a 5 year old child prodigy who gets a university degree on equal footing - all of them are geniuses to them if they can trigger a certain emotional response in them.

jupiviv · Post by **jupiviv** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:15 pm

I just found this conversation between Einstein and Rabindranath Tagore, who was an Indian poet, novelist, composer and philosopher(an all-round "genius" - perfect for being the 'pride of a nation/race/community' and suchlike, which he is over here in India):

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/ ... et-tagore/

Note the utter lack of any clarity in that conversation. It seems like they were both following a script - the script of two great minds of two nations meeting each other. Real front page stuff, but anyone who doesn't already believe that everything each of these men say is not worthy of actually being analysed seriously will be hard-pressed to find any coherence in what they said to each other.

n2xn · Post by **n2xn** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:49 am

interesting, but the more I look at physics and most science, the more it seems to be explaining the puzzles philosophy has already resolved except now empirically resounded. First, being reduction of properties, but with a microscope and some of the most amazing equipment to date. the pieces science has shed the most light upon, Especially now with the Higgs-Boson, which is almost a pure philosophical assertion(with entertainment to mathematics in its "field" interaction, but that is an energy reduction so....) Paths that lead to benefits should be nourished. Although, healthy mixture of things is also important.

Pincho Paxton · Post by **Pincho Paxton** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:24 am

Einstein was a genius, he played his part... but now it is an old part, and it doesn't work anymore. Fortunately, it is quite easy to fix his mistakes.

brad walker · Post by **brad walker** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:28 pm

I'm a supercomputer you're like a TI-82

Bobo · Post by **Bobo** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:29 am

"I do not have the professional knowledge to write a scholarly article about Spinoza. But what I think about this man I can express in a few words. Spinoza was the first to apply with strict consistency the idea of an all-pervasive determinism to human thought, feeling, and action. In my opinion, his point of view has not gained general acceptance by all those striving for clarity and logical rigor only because it requires not only consistency of thought, but also unusual integrity, magnamity, and — modesty."

"The fact that man produces a concept "I" besides the totality of his mental and emotional experiences or perceptions does not prove that there must be any specific existence behind such a concept. We are succumbing to illusions produced by our self-created language, without reaching a better understanding of anything. Most of so-called philosophy is due to this kind of fallacy."

"I agree with your remark about loving your enemy as far as actions are concerned. But for me the cognitive basis is the trust in an unrestricted causality. 'I cannot hate him, because he must do what he does.' That means for me more Spinoza than the prophets."

Bobo · Post by **Bobo** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:59 pm

"The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle.
It was the experience of mystery--even if mixed with fear--that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms--it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

David Quinn wrote:One way to keep the mind focused is to exploit your ego’s instinctive desire for happiness and use it to direct your attention to the All. For example, you can train your mind to view every aspect of Nature as an artistic masterpiece. It is easy to see that everything is immensely beautiful in an aesthetic sense. The colours, textures and sounds of even the most mundane things in life possess a sublime beauty if you know how to see it. Most people block out this beauty because they are so caught up in their daily worries, but there is no reason why you should be trapped in misery like them and go around being cranky at everything. You are well within your rights to experience the magical beauty of reality in everything that you do. It is an excellent way to find joy in the All and help free the mind from worldly attachments. All it takes is a little time and practice until it becomes second nature.

...

David Quinn wrote:Another amusing anomaly involves the stark contrast between the exceptional skill displayed by the genius within his chosen field and his sheer ineptitude outside of it. Einstein was undeniably talented within the realm of physics, but as soon as he stepped outside the lab or office, his skill and insight into life seemed to vanish. His philosophical musings, for example, were nearly always uninspired and mediocre. The following quote more or less sums up his philosophic outlook on life:

The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is.

- Albert Einstein, The World As I See It (1949)

In essence, what Einstein expresses with his philosophic views is a sense of awe at the size and structural complexity of the universe, an awe that is almost girl-like in its naivity. There is no specific knowledge on display, no depth of insight, no awareness of the logical pathways that extend beyond science, no understanding of the fundamental nature of things, not even an inkling that such an understanding is possible. Just a vague sense of astonishment that any happy-go-lucky teenager might experience when puffing on a joint. To put it bluntly, Einstein was a philosophical simpleton. If his expertise in physics went far beyond the greatest of PhD graduates, then his expertise in philosophy and spirituality went no further than the kindergarten.

"But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.
This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work, in so far as he succeeds in keeping himself from the shackles of selfish desire. It is beyond question closely akin to that which has possessed the religious geniuses of all ages."

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:47 pm

They are pretty good quotes, for a scientist. But it is still only a bit of dabbling on his part, a first hesitant step towards a deep understanding of reality. The quotes seem exceptional only because a scientist - i.e. a member of mainstream society - is making them. If someone on this forum were to say similar things they would barely register a murmer.

If Einstein had spent the last thirty years of his life following through with these thoughts and become genuinely enlightened, then that would have been something.

Gurrb · Post by **Gurrb** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:36 pm

David Quinn wrote:They are pretty good quotes, for a scientist. But it is still only a bit of dabbling on his part, a first hesitant step towards a deep understanding of reality. The quotes seem exceptional only because a scientist - i.e. a member of mainstream society - is making them. If someone on this forum were to say similar things they would barely register a murmer.

If Einstein had spent the last thirty years of his life following through with these thoughts and become genuinely enlightened, then that would have been something.

Unmerited critic. Those who can't do teach and those who can't teach criticize.

oxytocinNA · Post by **oxytocinNA** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:58 pm

The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is.

- Albert Einstein, The World As I See It (1949)

I don't know if there is a larger context to this quote - because I don't really care about the "man", so I have never read up on him.

The first sentence is wrong. One hundred and eighty degrees - wrong. And it is the set for the rest, which is also faulty thinking.

The most beautiful thing there is - is acquired knowledge - the understanding which allows you to appreciate something. Not knowing drives the curious to seek out - the prize - knowledge. Using words like mysterious, and secrets puts an absurd spin to the quote. There are no mysteries - just unsolved puzzles. Secrets? ... don't even know what to do with that. I guess some people are more dramatic about some things.

Gurrb wrote:
David Quinn wrote:They are pretty good quotes, for a scientist. But it is still only a bit of dabbling on his part, a first hesitant step towards a deep understanding of reality. The quotes seem exceptional only because a scientist - i.e. a member of mainstream society - is making them. If someone on this forum were to say similar things they would barely register a murmer.

If Einstein had spent the last thirty years of his life following through with these thoughts and become genuinely enlightened, then that would have been something.
Unmerited critic. Those who can't do teach and those who can't teach criticize.

If the quote above is what is being referred to as good .... already addressed that.

Gurrb - Your comment is a nice combination of bromide and ad hominem. Attack the argument (if you have a case) - not the man.

SeekerOfWisdom · Post by **SeekerOfWisdom** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:11 pm

"The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious."

Your consciousness and the universe is a complete mystery to you.

When you experience beauty and wonder that is a feeling of admiration of that mystery.

"Mystical"

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:39 am

The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is immortality!

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:40 am

None of you are genius-ha!

oxytocinNA · Post by **oxytocinNA** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:08 pm

Merlin wrote:The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is immortality!

...

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:"The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious."
Your consciousness and the universe is a complete mystery to you.

When you experience beauty and wonder that is a feeling of admiration of that mystery.

"Mystical"

I stand corrected - you are 180 degrees the opposite. ... :D

Just having a little fun. We already know we disagree.

Jamesh wrote:The reason I have a soft spot for Einstein is his rejection of quantum theories that abandoned causality. To me his strong belief in causality points to a philosophically advanced mind, not a philosophical genius, but still advanced relative to other scientists. I still feel he saw more deeply the nature of reality than 99% of noted scientists since, and it was this that drove his rejection of illogical theories like the Copenhagen interpretation. [I’ve not read The World As I See It]

“Physicists I’ve met who knew Einstein told me they found his thinking slow compared to the stars of the day. While he was competent enough with the basic mathematical tools of physics, many other physicists surrounding him in Berlin and Princeton were better at it. So what accounted for his genius? In retrospect, I believe what allowed Einstein to achieve so much was primarily a moral quality. He simply cared far more than most of his colleagues that the laws of physics have to explain everything in nature coherently and consistently. As a result he was acutely sensitive to flaws and contradictions in the logical structure of physical theories”
Lee Smolin

Blue: Some people are better at the larger picture of conceptual thinking, whilst other - the details (some people are probably a balance of the two). You can understand the concept before working out the math (or be mediocre at the math, or for that matter - piss poor at math). Everyone will vary.

Red:The obvious - there are no contradictions in nature - only in thought. Many would categorize that statement as philosophical. It is in fact an accurate observation of reality. This is what irritates me about philosophers and many scientists: only answers matter. Only the accurate conveyance of information / concepts.

I should add to a prior comment:

I don't know if there is a larger context to this quote - because I don't really care about the "man", so I have never read up on him.

I am familiar with his work - I just do not buy into a couple of related social concepts: Celebrity, and Nobility.

SeekerOfWisdom · Post by **SeekerOfWisdom** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:30 pm

I didn't know we disagree.

Disagree is when we forget we are experiencing the same "is",

what is there to disagree about?

Bobo · Post by **Bobo** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:43 pm

oxytocinNA wrote:The most beautiful thing there is - is acquired knowledge - the understanding which allows you to appreciate something. Not knowing drives the curious to seek out - the prize - knowledge

And how could there be acquired knowledge or a prize without "mystery"?

oxytocinNA wrote:
I don't know if there is a larger context to this quote - because I don't really care about the "man", so I have never read up on him.
I am familiar with his work - I just do not buy into a couple of related social concepts: Celebrity, and Nobility.

Einstein wrote:"My passionate sense of social justice and social responsibility has always contrasted oddly with my pronounced freedom from the need for direct contact with other human beings and human communities. I gang my own gait and have never belonged to my country, my home, my friends, or even my immediate family, with my whole heart; in the face of all these ties I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude--a feeling which increases with the years. One is sharply conscious, yet without regret, of the limits to the possibility of mutual understanding and sympathy with one's fellow-creatures. Such a person no doubt loses something in the way of geniality and light-heartedness; on the other hand, he is largely independent of the opinions, habits, and judgments of his fellows and avoids the temptation to take his stand on such insecure foundations."

"My political ideal is that of democracy. Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized. It is an irony of fate that I myself have been the recipient of excessive admiration and respect from my fellows through no fault, and no merit, of my own. The cause of this may well be the desire, unattainable for many, to understand the one or two ideas to which I have with my feeble powers attained through ceaseless struggle.
I am quite aware that it is necessary for the success of any complex undertaking that one man should do the thinking and directing and in general bear the responsibility. But the led must not be compelled, they must be able to choose their leader."

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:37 pm

God, I'm an atom!!!

oxytocinNA · Post by **oxytocinNA** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:56 pm

Bobo wrote:
oxytocinNA wrote:The most beautiful thing there is - is acquired knowledge - the understanding which allows you to appreciate something. Not knowing drives the curious to seek out - the prize - knowledge
And how could there be acquired knowledge or a prize without "mystery"?

oxytocinNA wrote:
I don't know if there is a larger context to this quote - because I don't really care about the "man", so I have never read up on him.
I am familiar with his work - I just do not buy into a couple of related social concepts: Celebrity, and Nobility.
Einstein wrote:"My passionate sense of social justice and social responsibility has always contrasted oddly with my pronounced freedom from the need for direct contact with other human beings and human communities. I gang my own gait and have never belonged to my country, my home, my friends, or even my immediate family, with my whole heart; in the face of all these ties I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude--a feeling which increases with the years. One is sharply conscious, yet without regret, of the limits to the possibility of mutual understanding and sympathy with one's fellow-creatures. Such a person no doubt loses something in the way of geniality and light-heartedness; on the other hand, he is largely independent of the opinions, habits, and judgments of his fellows and avoids the temptation to take his stand on such insecure foundations."

"My political ideal is that of democracy. Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized. It is an irony of fate that I myself have been the recipient of excessive admiration and respect from my fellows through no fault, and no merit, of my own. The cause of this may well be the desire, unattainable for many, to understand the one or two ideas to which I have with my feeble powers attained through ceaseless struggle.
I am quite aware that it is necessary for the success of any complex undertaking that one man should do the thinking and directing and in general bear the responsibility. But the led must not be compelled, they must be able to choose their leader."

(red) I have a big problem with that word - for a couple of reasons. One - the typical connotation. Second - is more specific and I don't feel like sharing - but the word puzzle works very specifically for me.

On the paragraphs from Einstein - I may respond to this later when I have more time.

GENIUS FORUMS

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