Faith

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Faith

Post by Dennis Mahar »

what about body sensations, emotions, memories.
what if we cut the head off.

it's all empty lad.
you haven't refuted causality.
Cathy Preston
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Re: Faith

Post by Cathy Preston »

Beingof1 wrote:
The senses are a subset of perception.

The senses are contained in the field of awareness. You do not need the senses to be aware.

If you lose the sense of sight are you still aware?
If you lose the sense of smell are you still aware?
If you lose the sense of touch are you still aware?
If you lose the sense of hearing are you still aware?
If you lose the sense of taste are you still aware?

If you lose all five senses - you are still aware. This is the point the zen gurus cannot seem to grasp.
There are more subtle senses so possibly you would be aware of something, but if either the cerebral cortex or the brain-stem are injured you end up in a coma.

For myself I like to rely on my senses and my mind, especially when doing anything other than sitting in a corner meditating. Awareness is an effect of environment, mind, and body if it existed independently it wouldn't be so susceptible to variances in any of the three.

I think much of our daily functioning is so automatic we don't even realize what exactly we are using, in this way it becomes easy to convince one self that awareness actually exists. But even something as simple as knowing what is behind you is impossible to know without using your mind or your senses, this becomes really apparent if you're a driver who does a lot of passing on the highway. Even if I thought I was psychic I wouldn't rely solely on my spidey sense to know when it was safe to pass.

The beauty of emptiness is quite breath taking, and endowing anything with inherent existence seems quite insane.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Faith

Post by Dennis Mahar »

When the word 'nothingness' is directed to you BofI, you think it means the absolute zero of physics.
It is not that.
It is the breakthrough to the silent desert where no trace of a distinction is seen.
where conceptualising breaks down and the power of the conceptualiser to make meaning is understood.

Meister Eckhart called it,

the simply modeless, formless, unthinkable and unspeakable purity.

When you say Awareness it looks like you are referring to the always/already conceptualiser that processes sense data and gives it meaning.

A mountain is a mountain.
water is water.
a football match is a football match.
so what?
Beingof1
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Re: Faith

Post by Beingof1 »

Cathy:
There are more subtle senses so possibly you would be aware of something, but if either the cerebral cortex or the brain-stem are injured you end up in a coma.
It is assumed that the brain is the source of consciousness. The brain is a resistor, capacitor and tranceiver and when thought of this way it aligns with the laws of physics in a much more coherent fashion.

It is like a TV. You can pull the plug on the TV thinking that the TV is the source of picture and sound. We know however that the radio waves that cannot be ascertained by the senses are the source.

Electromagnetic waves are the data stream or the photon.

There are on record, persons who were clinically dead for longer than the big 4 minute mark who have had an NDE. They come back with no ill effects that oxygen starvation hopes to explain.
For myself I like to rely on my senses and my mind, especially when doing anything other than sitting in a corner meditating. Awareness is an effect of environment, mind, and body if it existed independently it wouldn't be so susceptible to variances in any of the three.
There are two views that are in question:

1) All and every thing is a result of the material.

This is the dominate view at this forum. It is couched in fluffy talk of emptiness but when you boil it down the meme here is that all things are and have a base in mass or material. This is why evolution is so important to this forums view.

If consciousness is subject to the material, it must be measurable.What are the dimensions of your field of awareness?

For example:
Let P stand for physical
Let M stand for mind.

If - in all possible worlds - P is responsible and the cause for M, then P fixes M.
It must fix(allow to exist) M no matter the physics, laws, or beings.

As you can see - this is absurd.

2) All is a result of the mind or state of being. No thing can exist unless it is perceived.

I describe consciousness as the full set, awareness as a subset, and perception as a subset of awareness. If consciousness is realized as a field of information, it would solve the problems. It would also lead to major breakthroughs in biological, physics, and medical sciences that would create predictive models that would help mankind as a whole.

For example:
If someone had cancer, you could shoot a hologram into the effected area of healthy cells. The cells, if they could detect the hologram, would fall back into the original programming and begin to behave normally.

I think much of our daily functioning is so automatic we don't even realize what exactly we are using, in this way it becomes easy to convince one self that awareness actually exists.
How does one convince ones self of awareness?
But even something as simple as knowing what is behind you is impossible to know without using your mind or your senses, this becomes really apparent if you're a driver who does a lot of passing on the highway. Even if I thought I was psychic I wouldn't rely solely on my spidey sense to know when it was safe to pass.
How many things can you be aware of all at the same time?
The beauty of emptiness is quite breath taking, and endowing anything with inherent existence seems quite insane.
I know - that is why the emptiness of consciousness is.



Dennis:
what about body sensations, emotions, memories.
what if we cut the head off.

it's all empty lad.
you haven't refuted causality.
I know - that is because I was not refuting causality.

But how could you know that when you carry on conversations in your head thinking it is me you are talking to?
When the word 'nothingness' is directed to you BofI, you think it means the absolute zero of physics.It is not that.
No Dennis - that is your little guy in your head you think is me you are talking to again. But how could you know that when you block out every word I pen and then procede to talk to your self all over again.

You need to get better dude.

It is the breakthrough to the silent desert where no trace of a distinction is seen.
where conceptualising breaks down and the power of the conceptualiser to make meaning is understood.

Meister Eckhart called it,

the simply modeless, formless, unthinkable and unspeakable purity.
I know Dennis. Let me know when you stop talking to your hand puppet.
When you say Awareness it looks like you are referring to the always/already conceptualiser that processes sense data and gives it meaning.
You have no idea what I say because you keep talking to an imaginary neophyte that you need to school. The problem is - its the guy in your head and you keep confusing him with me.
A mountain is a mountain.
water is water.
a football match is a football match.
so what?
What?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Faith

Post by Dennis Mahar »

it's empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless.

geddit?

there's nothing to get.
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
there's nothing to get.
Who's Aware that there's nothing to get ?
Cathy Preston
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Re: Faith

Post by Cathy Preston »

Kunga wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:
there's nothing to get.
Who's Aware that there's nothing to get ?

The Totality is aware.
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

Cathy Preston wrote:The Totality is aware.

What is The Totality ?
Cathy Preston
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Re: Faith

Post by Cathy Preston »

Everything, everything you can see and everything you can't see.
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

Cathy Preston wrote:Everything, everything you can see and everything you can't see.

What is it that is "seeing" ?
Cathy Preston
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Re: Faith

Post by Cathy Preston »

When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

Cathy Preston wrote:When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.

What never ceases?
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Tomas
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Re: Faith

Post by Tomas »

Kunga wrote:
Cathy Preston wrote:When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.

What never ceases?
Very good, Kunga.

This should prove to be (an intellectually) entertaining dialogue.

Have at it.
Don't run to your death
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Faith

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunga:
  • What never ceases?
Nonstarter.
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

Tomas wrote:Have at it.

don't bogart it :)
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Nonstarter.

Nonender...
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Faith

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Who's Aware that there's nothing to get ?
The scriptwriter.
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:

The scriptwriter.
What was there before any script was writ by a scriptwriter ?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Faith

Post by Dennis Mahar »

the simply modeless, formless, unthinkable and unspeakable purity.
the infinite ground of being.
the infinite possibilities for being.

unravelling the scripts catches the scriptwriter in the act.

try this on for size,
a nation (idea) in relation to a physical piece of land (country),
bears exactly the same relation to,
an ego (idea) in relation to a physical body/mind.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Faith

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunga,
    • Nonstarter.
    Nonender...
Nonsense!
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Faith

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Dennis Mahar wrote:an ego (idea) in relation to a physical body/mind.
The idea in both cases acts as function to organize - keeping it together.

All organization includes its own sickness, like a tree includes its own molds, fungi and canker rot.
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:unthinkable and unspeakable purity.
the infinite ground of being.

Is it Aware ?
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

Kunga wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:unthinkable and unspeakable purity.
the infinite ground of being.

Is it Aware ?

Are you ?


If you have to ask,
you can't afford it.


Afford it ?

Yeah,
the price you pay just to know the truth....


The cat is out of the bag.


Kunga,
Shut the fuck up

No

I wanna know THE TRUTH !

YOU ARE THE TRUTH !

And the truth will set you free !

Free from what ?

Free from the illusion of who you think you are.

Who am I ?

You are the light. But only on the dimmer switch...

Oh,
how do I make it brighter ?
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Kunga
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Re: Faith

Post by Kunga »

"Learn to look without imagination, to listen without distortion: that is all. Stop attributing names and shapes to the essentially nameless and formless, realize that every mode of perception is subjective, that what is seen or heard, touched or smelled, felt or thought,expected or imagined, is in the mind and not in reality, and you will experience peace and freedom from fear." - Nisargadatta Maharaj
jufa
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Re: Faith

Post by jufa »

The title of this thread is "Faith."

The Just Shall Live By His Faith - Hab.2:4

Living by faith, being a traveling vagabond, has nothing to do with a belief in religion. "It can be said that: What we are is what we do. What we do is what we feel. What we feel is what we think. What we think is what we perceive." What we perceive is the culmination of our outer object human experiences and inner subjective interpreted feeling. In our experience and interpretations we fail to comprehend the issues of life flows out of his Christ Conscience of Spirit, [interpretable in anyway you like] not according to man's mind of human thoughts, but by taking no thought as a personal possession. Even direct revelations [aware of thought] are not personal, they are for individual understanding of all opinions, ideas revelations already written or spoken into the ethereal for consumption of all that God is, [interpret God, or don't anyway you like] and are to be utilized to reach up for the next rung of growth for individuals and mankind.

In this realization, man find that his thoughts are not his own, and thus, for him to take thoughts as personal possession is truly an act of thievery. Thief because "the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof, the world, and they that dwell therein."

It is written: "NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." But how can man say he has faith; that he lives by that faith and; his worship of God is unrestricted when his life is filled with doubt, insecurities, aloneness, and fears? And how can any man say the thoughts he has received from the invisible hovering Spirit are personal to him when God is the Father of all creation? [Believing thoughts are personal to the individual would mean no one else could receive that thought, nor benefit from it].

How can a person truthfully utter their faith is unconditional, even when they confess Jesus is Lord, when such as their confession be, does not come forth in the righteousness of humble obedience to that faith? Or in the knowledge of having Christ, the high priest of God after the order of Melchizedek, governing their mentality and yielding their wills to the Will of God? "Not my will, but thy will be done." Not my opinion, not my finding fault, not my judging, not my condemnations, not my accepting what they say, Not by my might, not by my power, not by my spirit but "thy will be done"?

How can men say honestly they have faith in God being able to do what He said He would do, when they do not "draw near to God with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having their hearts sprinkled from and evil conscience, and their bodies washed with pure water," when they can't even begin to fathom "God upholding all things by the word of his power"?

Men have faith in their jobs, children, wives, husbands, mother's, father's, automobiles, money, and on and on and on. But to have faith in God, to worship Him in Spirit and in truth is to understand, acknowledge, and demonstrate continuously they have submitted their hope unto the invisible hands of the divine Principled Substance, and there they have left it?

Faith then, from where this writer lives, means man's prayers and supposition submitted unto God cannot enter into their minds again. To take thought on that which one has surrendered to that which is unknown mentally means they have taken thought on that which they have placed in the hands of God, and have given up their hope and faith in God's ability to do what He said He promised He would do.

Faith is not about believing, faith is about trusting wholeheartedly. Wholehearted trust means once man has established his position in realistic hope, not optimism, he can no longer take thought, or become a victims of worry, or allow anxiety to enter into his mind. When man's mind is filled with realistic hope; with the Word of wisdom, there can be no possible, possible way for his human mentality to maintain its dominion over him; for hope to fail; for anything to exist in his life but the will and direction of "God upholding all things by the world of his power."

To worship God in Spirit and in truth; in humble obedience is to "cast not away, therefore, your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience that, after ye have done the will of God ye might received the promise. Now the "just shall live by faith; but if a man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Spirit, therefore, must be the first and only vibrating energy allow to flow into, and out of man's consciousness onward, into, and through his mind, coming forth out of his mouth in the form of what he has heard from that "still small voice."

Whether atheist, religious, or doubter that what takes place in your life according to your thinking is justified by your faith of believing whatever. And the saying for you - "The Just Shall Live By His Faith" - is as true for you as everyone else.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com
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