Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Liberty Sea » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:30 pm

While it is true that the ego is an illusion, but if enlightenment - as commonly implied - necessarily involves the total disappearance of 'ego-consciousness', then I am rather skeptical about whether a person can completely get rid of 'ego-consciousness' even if that person is 'perfectly' aware that the ego is an illusion. Does such an enlightened person think without an "I", and does the idea of "himself" never get into his thought? He can think "neither enlightened not not enlightened" instead of "I am enlightened" or "I am not enlightened", but can he constantly keep himself in such a state, no matter what he does? What is "perfect selflessness" in action? What about sub-conscious selfishness, instinctive selfishness and other forms of instincts and sub-consciousness?


---


Richard Dawkin's ego is too big to see further. There are some genuine ideas in his thoughts, from which one can process to understand the illusion of the world. For example he was aware that he would perceive things differently if he was atom with consciousness, or a bat, and that human perceptions are not absolute. Overall he was mediocre, and too busy being the most famous atheist in the world to attain any solid wisdom.


---


Talking Ass wrote:Esteemed Colleague, your question seems so very peculiar to me. I am surprised that you do not recognize that it is a classical rhetorical question and that I can neither answer nor not answer it and actually answer it! Surely you must see this?

It is, in fact, the perfect Question for you to offer a discourse on that which you had in mind. ;-)

I am all ears...(Here, I just took this on my Android Smartphone and I submit it as Exhibit 1: 'Donkey has ears to hear').

Well, it is meant to be a question for you to ask yourself and yourself alone. If you, in your heart of hearts, can know what your honest answer to that question is, in everything you do and the reason why you are doing what you do, then no discourse from me is needed.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Jamesh » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:41 pm

For the record, I had been thinking a similar thing that David pointed out about Alex and his parents a few weeks ago.

[thus you hide away in cultural and religious theorizing]

This theorising and his general high level of memory recall he has found to be an excellent utility for attention, for drawing others into himself and having his ego gratified - Look at Me Look at How Much knowledge I Have and How Clever I am. He simply is not going to let that go. It is a utility he has over most others, developed over many years. It was probably first initiated by the normal youthful rejection of one’s parents values and control and over the years has become excessively important to his ego.

I’d like to see if he was capable of compressing his views into a structure like Liberty Sea has done in with his On Consciousness post.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby jupiviv » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:59 pm

Cathy Preston wrote:Experiencing the Great Mystery eliminates this seperation.


The Great Mystery lies in the separation itself. If it didn't then it would just be another kind of separation.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Talking Ass » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:42 pm

The psychologizing angle is always an attraction. But please note David that you have really not at all considered the central ideas I communicated in those last posts. James may agree, though I don't, that the time it takes to communicate ideas on these themes is soley some sort of ego-gratification activity, but I say that sorting through the ideas is vitally important. It is said to be the most important quality of a seeker. To discover and to become conscious of 'what has happened to us' that causes us to define a path of shearing off from ourselves, is a subject of primary importance. It is very true that in my own case I am dealing with (but I reject 'reacting to') my own culture, and I have certainly become aware of my parent's choices, but much more in the spirit of mature, careful sorting through. I would describe that as recovering from many strains of thoughtless mysticism (speaking of post-sixties alternative spirituality) and desiring to rediscover 'the real'. The real is the fact of our bodies, in time, with all we have to deal with. And despite histrionics (that's Talking Ass's bag anyway) I have described this time and again in clear, direct prose. It does not surprise me that here, in this context, it is only vaguely if not at all understood, but I do understand why. Finally, it has been necessary (apparently!) to be and remain in such an environment as GF, 'arguing against',
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Talking Ass » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:52 pm

...all these literally fantastical 'spiritual constructs' and spiritual trippiness, but I do think much of what I (and others) point out about this will.become clear. But later in life. But for now, to all appearances, most of the benefit has been mine: here, in this place, I have completely remodeled my thinking. I have rediscovered inside myself a forgotten territory and have learned to revalue what 'so many of you' thoughtlessly reject. How could one not offer thanks? ;-)

The East is not at all to be rejected. That is not the point. The question, as I understand it now, is to consider 'all that stuff' from the position of a strong and confident self, which means to deal with and to resolve our parent's use of that material in 'projects of escape'. If anything, what is important is to bring everything back to bear on the essential issue: ourselves, in a body, in time, now. Not quite as easy as it sounds.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Cathy Preston » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:39 pm

jupiviv wrote:
Cathy Preston wrote:Experiencing the Great Mystery eliminates this seperation.


The Great Mystery lies in the separation itself. If it didn't then it would just be another kind of separation.


Yes. But in truth there is no other kind of separation.


jamesh wrote: Like TA, I never actually believe that really happens. I think it is delusion. Creating spiritualism where there is none!

The changing self remains the changing self at all times - all that changes is one's ego program(s) and its related value systems, which can certainly have profound affects. There is no "snapping into one", there is merely the attachment to that ideal. Such non-duality is evident in thought processes ONLY when thinking of philosophical issues, not truly at any other time, albeit that as one's value system has changed now that the self is more tightly cognitively linked to the whole which changes one's thinking.

I don't really believe in enlightenment, as in being one with all - such a concept does not suit my psyche. That sort of thing is for people who have a well developed God Module in their brains. http://atheistempire.com/reference/brain/main.html
I think David has this - and that is the true reason he at times refers to the totality as God, as this thing of utter beauty. Dennis and Being of One also have a history of being drawn to things that stimulate the God Module.


The snapping into one is an experience, like the blink of an eye really, yet reverberates all ways. How could I look upon anything the same again?

The concept " such a concept does not suit my psyche" seems benign yet may be the one thing standing between you and the universe.

(/)
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Talking Ass » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:03 am

Ya hear that now James? You gots a big block betwixt yerself and the u-ni-verse. This is applied MEGA-psychology! Best you get right with the Lord an right fast!
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Cathy Preston » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:16 am

Liberty Sea wrote:While it is true that the ego is an illusion, but if enlightenment - as commonly implied - necessarily involves the total disappearance of 'ego-consciousness', then I am rather skeptical about whether a person can completely get rid of 'ego-consciousness' even if that person is 'perfectly' aware that the ego is an illusion. Does such an enlightened person think without an "I", and does the idea of "himself" never get into his thought? He can think "neither enlightened not not enlightened" instead of "I am enlightened" or "I am not enlightened", but can he constantly keep himself in such a state, no matter what he does? What is "perfect selflessness" in action? What about sub-conscious selfishness, instinctive selfishness and other forms of instincts and sub-consciousness?


If I am in all things and all things are in me, this particular event of experience through Cathy Preston is expedient. There is no state in which to constantly keep "himself", once you learn how to tie a shoe do you even think about the process at all. Do we have to "think" about our bodily processes, or do they occur naturally. "Perfect selflessness in action" is basically letting things happen naturally.

`
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Cathy Preston » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:24 am

Talking Ass wrote:Ya hear that now James? You gots a big block betwixt yerself and the u-ni-verse. This is applied MEGA-psychology! Best you get right with the Lord an right fast!


You laugh but why is it so important for anyone to identify so strongly with any idea. Do you really imagine that if you don't believe in gravity you'll fly off the world completely?

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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby jupiviv » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:35 am

Cathy Preston wrote:
jupiviv wrote:
Cathy Preston wrote:Experiencing the Great Mystery eliminates this seperation.


The Great Mystery lies in the separation itself. If it didn't then it would just be another kind of separation.


Yes. But in truth there is no other kind of separation.


I don't think you understood what I said. I meant that the duality/separation between things is itself their non-dual nature. The fact that things are one is precisely why they have boundaries.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Cathy Preston » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:06 am

jupiviv wrote:
Cathy Preston wrote:
jupiviv wrote:
Cathy Preston wrote:Experiencing the Great Mystery eliminates this seperation.


The Great Mystery lies in the separation itself. If it didn't then it would just be another kind of separation.

at
Yes. But in truth there is no other kind of separation.


I don't think you understood what I said. I meant that the duality/separation between things is itself their non-dual nature. The fact that things are one is precisely why they have boundaries.



I recognize your comment "The Great Mystery lies in the separation itself" as true. But then you go on with the assumption that there is a "great mystery separation" and a "other separation" since that would be the way we expect to experience things, in juxtaposition. Yet the opposite of separation is wholeness, not more separation. There is no "non-dual nature." The fact that ALL THINGS are one is precisely why there are no boundaries. The fact that we imagine boundaries at all is the Great Mystery.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Talking Ass » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:20 am

You guys just LOVE this bizarre, ungrounded, essentially senseless and useless PSYCHOBABBLE. It must be what you have replaced sex with. You deal on all these abstract definitions but you are not talking about anything substantial. He who is proficient in psychobabble, he who has mastered it, wins! I vote for movingalways. Actually, I'd love to see Cathy and movingalways meet to work out their psychobabble theatre! If Jufa made it a three-way I'd surely be jealous though...
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Cathy Preston » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:23 am

Talking Ass wrote:You guys just LOVE this bizarre, ungrounded, essentially senseless and useless PSYCHOBABBLE. It must be what you have replaced sex with. You deal on all these abstract definitions but you are not talking about anything substantial. He who is proficient in psychobabble, he who has mastered it, wins! I vote for movingalways. Actually, I'd love to see Cathy and movingalways meet to work out their psychobabble theatre! If Jufa made it a three-way I'd surely be jealous though...


If you want to have a three-way you should just go out and make it happen no need to be jealous.

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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby jupiviv » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:16 am

Cathy Preston wrote:I recognize your comment "The Great Mystery lies in the separation itself" as true. But then you go on with the assumption that there is a "great mystery separation" and a "other separation" since that would be the way we expect to experience things, in juxtaposition.


I assumed that by "great mystery" you meant the All. I didn't mean that separation/duality is a mystery. It's hard to understand what you're saying if you don't clarify your definitions.

The fact that ALL THINGS are one is precisely why there are no boundaries.


That is obviously not true, since if there were no boundaries then there would be no things which could be posited as being "one".

The fact that we imagine boundaries at all is the Great Mystery.


I don't think this mystery is so Great. Saying that boundaries are imagined is a bit like saying that all things are illusions - it doesn't mean anything. If they are imagined then who exactly is imagining them? Are the boundaries of that person also imagined? If yes, then by whom? And so on ad infinitum.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby jupiviv » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:36 am

Talking Ass wrote:You guys just LOVE this bizarre, ungrounded, essentially senseless and useless PSYCHOBABBLE. It must be what you have replaced sex with. You deal on all these abstract definitions but you are not talking about anything substantial.


You simply won't think about anything we say will you? Regardless of what any single one of us says, whether some of us disagree with or criticise others, we are still part of a radical eunuch misogynist Buddhist cult in your mind. The irony is that everything you say about us happens to be insubstantial abstract definitions that you've created to avoid the actual reality of what is going on here.

But as I said before, your perseverance is impressive. If you keep going on like this, maybe one day you'll defeat QRS. They are getting old after all - won't be long before they're taken up to that big Totality in the sky.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Talking Ass » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:31 am

I have already 'defeated' them. This is all mop-up...

;-)

I wish to suggest that 'you' don't really SAY anything. You love these word-puzzles.and to mince semantic positioning, with what appears to me as NO OTHER FUNCTION but to appear the better reasoned. You MUST cop to the aesthetic attraction for this crap. It is the mirror-image I think of your contempt for REAL aesthetics. It's perverse!
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and furthermore...

Postby Talking Ass » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:44 am

PS: I also wish to say that David, above, has committed the classic gnostic heresy, although he is 100% unaware of its effect and consequence, and will therefore be burned at the stake...

He'll have 'Infinity' to think it over!

;-)
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Cathy Preston » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:00 am

jupiviv wrote:
Cathy Preston wrote:I recognize your comment "The Great Mystery lies in the separation itself" as true. But then you go on with the assumption that there is a "great mystery separation" and a "other separation" since that would be the way we expect to experience things, in juxtaposition.


I assumed that by "great mystery" you meant the All. I didn't mean that separation/duality is a mystery. It's hard to understand what you're saying if you don't clarify your definitions.

The fact that ALL THINGS are one is precisely why there are no boundaries.


That is obviously not true, since if there were no boundaries then there would be no things which could be posited as being "one".



The Great Mystery, Universe, Totality is not a theory, it's not a concept, it's actually all there is, no-thing exists nor nothing exists that is not it. If there were "real" boundaries there would be countless things and no reason to suggest otherwise.

jupiviv wrote:I don't think this mystery is so Great. Saying that boundaries are imagined is a bit like saying that all things are illusions - it doesn't mean anything. If they are imagined then who exactly is imagining them? Are the boundaries of that person also imagined? If yes, then by whom? And so on ad infinitum.


If they are imagined then who exactly is imagining them? Who Indeed?

Are the boundaries of that person also imagined? Yes, does this not fit the definition of a mystery?

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Buddha And Jesus - The Same Dude

Postby Tomas » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:25 am

David Quinn wrote:
Talking Ass wrote:Someday, the 'some reason or other' will become clear in your mind.

The reason is already very clear in mind - namely, to put as much distance as possible between yourself and the restlessness of the eternal.

This underlying motivation shines out in everything you say.

-

Look, David. You sojourned over to VietNam a year or so back...

Tell us some about what's what, there.

i.e. Motivation for going

Did you camp out? (near temples?)

Highlands, Delta..

Stay in a posh hotel?

Blah, blah.

Let's hear the nitty-gritty.

Warm Regards,
Tomas ( I was there in 1971, came back on a stretcher) Been there three times since. Wonderful country.

PS - Come on already. Let's have it.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Liberty Sea » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:40 am

Cathy Preston wrote:If I am in all things and all things are in me, this particular event of experience through Cathy Preston is expedient. There is no state in which to constantly keep "himself", once you learn how to tie a shoe do you even think about the process at all. Do we have to "think" about our bodily processes, or do they occur naturally. "Perfect selflessness in action" is basically letting things happen naturally.

Supposing that you are right, would that practice benefit you with the largest possible amount of new truths about existence (new to you)?
And whether it does so, what is the ultimate benefit of that practice, if sooner or later the solar system will be gone, which could happen some dozens of billions of years later or tomorrow or God knows when?
Is it not for the sheer sake of "I accomplished a most difficult task?".
Supposing that it does free you from suffering, is the motive not the same as anyone who sings "We should enjoy life as much as possible!"?
And supposing that for some reason you get into a situation in which you have all your skin ripped off and your limbs grilled and your muscles drilled and your bones crushed and your teeth plucked out and your genital bitten off and are beaten to near death state; or are drugged with heavy addictive heroine or insanely strong aphrodisiacs; or get poisoned with radioactive substances or dioxins; or get some diseases like AIDS or leprosy or chronic skin syndrome or amnesia; or get enslaved or imprisoned and constantly raped in prison; or somehow are forced to get pregnant through some surgery and then forced to devour your child; or are forced (by means of value-threat, torture, drug, hypnotism) to eat your father, relatives and rape your mother; or get genetically mutated into a useless lump of meat with countless worms planted inside you; or get half of your brain shaved off or have the whole of it transplanted into a dog before or after you could finish that practice; what would be your reaction?
I am just asking for asking's sake.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Talking Ass » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:49 pm

...or get stranded, eternally, irremediably, on Genius Forums...

And anyway she had her genitals bitten off a loooooonngg time ago. It's a non-issue.
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:07 pm



    ....get stranded, eternally, irremediably, on Genius Forums...

Now lets take this a pitch higher and look at this like the general state we are in. Haven't we all a hidden "territory" inside which needs to be maintained, to fortify this weakened "lost" zone by fighting the windmills, for example those found here? Don't we all have to justify some Wall building project with self-redemptive lingo: Tor-ah!

Of course something is missing here for anyone constantly "having to deal with" all those timely "facts of the bodies". This is a good description of the brilliant misunderstanding in concept which especially Judeo-Christianity brought the world. Perhaps the greatest most misunderstood abstract, to rule them all: the body or the object itself. It might have been a necessary delusion, a side-product of advances in the conceptualizing gift of mind but a waste product which has slowly been taken over the whole (conceptualizing) world view. We all live in object-space now, in body-time. A great dream which patiently waits, sometimes even longs for its own destruction. And the miraculous element, the hilarious part is the realization it was all not needed like we were tricked into thinking before.

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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Cathy Preston » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:25 pm

Liberty Sea wrote:Supposing that you are right, would that practice benefit you with the largest possible amount of new truths about existence (new to you)?
And whether it does so, what is the ultimate benefit of that practice, if sooner or later the solar system will be gone, which could happen some dozens of billions of years later or tomorrow or God knows when?


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "practice" but here goes.
Once you realize that you are in all things and all things are in you, it's no longer a practice, letting things happen naturally is the norm. When you have a vivid dream upon awakening do you look for truths about existence in it or do you realize it was just a dream and let it go. Truths about existence are not objects that you accumulate, storing up in your bedside table, to take out and admire on occasion.

Liberty Sea wrote:Is it not for the sheer sake of "I accomplished a most difficult task?".



Not really a sense of accomplishment at all, for me there was an immediate sense that a huge joke had been played on me, and I finally just got it.

Liberty Sea wrote:Supposing that it does free you from suffering, is the motive not the same as anyone who sings "We should enjoy life as much as possible!"?
And supposing that for some reason you get into a situation in which you have all your skin ripped off and your limbs grilled and your muscles drilled and your bones crushed and your teeth plucked out and your genital bitten off and are beaten to near death state; or are drugged with heavy addictive heroine or insanely strong aphrodisiacs; or get poisoned with radioactive substances or dioxins; or get some diseases like AIDS or leprosy or chronic skin syndrome or amnesia; or get enslaved or imprisoned and constantly raped in prison; or somehow are forced to get pregnant through some surgery and then forced to devour your child; or are forced (by means of value-threat, torture, drug, hypnotism) to eat your father, relatives and rape your mother; or get genetically mutated into a useless lump of meat with countless worms planted inside you; or get half of your brain shaved off or have the whole of it transplanted into a dog before or after you could finish that practice; what would be your reaction?
I am just asking for asking's sake.


"We should enjoy life as must as possible" I have no trouble with that song. If you are sincerely driven to search for the truth it will be your joy. If something else is your joy, there's no point searching for truth. If amassing knowledge is your passion you have to follow it until you realize its futility.

Have you ever died in a dream? I would know that whatever thing or things was doing this to me was in fact me. I would know that they really couldn't harm the essence of either of us. At the same time I might be feeling a lot of physical pain, I might be throwing up, or pissing myself. I may be trying to run like hell, or physically fighting back. With any luck I'd die somewhere in that process.

`
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Talking Ass » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:27 pm

Diebert: Well, thank God we can be done with THAT!

And what [now] is the alternative?
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Re: Osho - Comparing Buddha And Jesus

Postby Cathy Preston » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:41 pm

Talking Ass wrote:...or get stranded, eternally, irremediably, on Genius Forums...

And anyway she had her genitals bitten off a loooooonngg time ago. It's a non-issue.


I had to look that word up "irremediably." Eh the power has to go out sometime.

In all seriousness though Ass, you do seem to be a bit obsessed with sex.
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