Absolute Reality

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Cathy Preston » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:16 am

"Those who become Buddhas, but not from Enlightment occurring in their own minds, are called Hearer-Buddhas. Most students of the Way are Enlightened through the Dharma which is taught in words and not through the Dharma of Mind. Even after the successive aeons of effort, they will not become attuned to the original Buddha-Essence. For those who are not Enlightened from within their own Mind, but from hearing the Dharma which is taught in words, make light of Mind and attach importance to doctrine, so they advance only step-by-step, neglecting their original Mind. Thus, if only you have a tacit understanding of Mind, you will not need to search for any Dharma, for then MInd is the Dharma." Haung Po


and to liveloveexperience absolute reality can't be accessed, you're always in it whether you realize it or not.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby jupiviv » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:57 am

Cathy Preston wrote:"Those who become Buddhas, but not from Enlightment occurring in their own minds, are called Hearer-Buddhas. Most students of the Way are Enlightened through the Dharma which is taught in words and not through the Dharma of Mind. Even after the successive aeons of effort, they will not become attuned to the original Buddha-Essence. For those who are not Enlightened from within their own Mind, but from hearing the Dharma which is taught in words, make light of Mind and attach importance to doctrine, so they advance only step-by-step, neglecting their original Mind. Thus, if only you have a tacit understanding of Mind, you will not need to search for any Dharma, for then MInd is the Dharma." Haung Po


In other words, only those who already know what the Mind is can understand the Dharma that is taught in words.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Cathy Preston » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:20 pm

jupiviv wrote:
Cathy Preston wrote:"Those who become Buddhas, but not from Enlightment occurring in their own minds, are called Hearer-Buddhas. Most students of the Way are Enlightened through the Dharma which is taught in words and not through the Dharma of Mind. Even after the successive aeons of effort, they will not become attuned to the original Buddha-Essence. For those who are not Enlightened from within their own Mind, but from hearing the Dharma which is taught in words, make light of Mind and attach importance to doctrine, so they advance only step-by-step, neglecting their original Mind. Thus, if only you have a tacit understanding of Mind, you will not need to search for any Dharma, for then MInd is the Dharma." Haung Po


In other words, only those who already know what the Mind is can understand the Dharma that is taught in words.



The Dharma that is taught in words is not the real Dharma its only a pointer.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby jupiviv » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:57 pm

In that quote Mind seems to refer to the All, and the Dharma to the understanding or realisation of it. Literally, "dharma" variously means religion, doctrine, principle, philosophy etc.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:59 pm

Yeah, so what does it mean when Buddha had no dharma to speak of, that he never taught any dharma ? That he too, is non-existentent/existent, [etc] ?



Do not say “empty,” or “not empty,” or “both,” or “neither:” these are mentioned for the sake of [conventional] understanding. [Nagajuna]

Totally pacifying all referents and totally pacifying fixations is peace. The Buddha nowhere taught any dharma to anyone. [Nagajuna]
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Cathy Preston » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:42 am

Kunga wrote:Yeah, so what does it mean when Buddha had no dharma to speak of, that he never taught any dharma ? That he too, is non-existentent/existent, [etc] ?

r

Do not say “empty,” or “not empty,” or “both,” or “neither:” these are mentioned for the sake of [conventional] understanding. [Nagajuna]

Totally pacifying all referents and totally pacifying fixations is peace. The Buddha nowhere taught any dharma to anyone. [Nagajuna]



The Buddha has no dharma to speak of because the real dharma cannot be spoken. Dharma is a transformation of mind within mind by mind. All we can really do is aim to make the conditions right for the real Dharma to take root.


Dharma has nothing to do with learning concepts or meaning of words. An illiterate with the right conditions could receive and understand the Dharma.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:51 am

Yes, thank you Cathy _/\_

So would you say Dharma is Awareness ?

Like the sun is always shining,
but clouds sometimes get in the way ?
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:59 am

Naturally occurring timeless awareness - utterly lucid awakened mind -
is something marvelous and superb, primordially and spontaneously present.
It is the treasury of which comes the universe of appearances and possibilities, whether of samsara or nirvana.


Timelessly and spontaneously present, this pure realm is without
transition or change.
With the perception of the true nature of phenomena within basic space,
wisdom arises continuously as the adornment of that space.
Not created or ahieved, it abides timelessly.
Like the sun in the sky, it is amazing and superb.



[Longchenpa]
Last edited by Kunga on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Cathy Preston » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:06 am

Kunga wrote:Yes, thank you Cathy _/\_

So would you say Dharma is Awareness ?

Like the sun is always shining,
but clouds sometimes get in the way ?



No I wouldn't.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:16 am

Cathy Preston wrote:The Buddha has no dharma to speak of because the real dharma cannot be spoken. Dharma is a transformation of mind within mind by mind. All we can really do is aim to make the conditions right for the real Dharma to take root.


Dharma has nothing to do with learning concepts or meaning of words. An illiterate with the right conditions could receive and understand the Dharma.



But you say Dharma is a transformation of mind within mind by mind. To me that transformation is a "Knowing" an "Awareness".

An illterate is transformed by their "Awareness", because the right conditions would mean "the clouds" of confusion have passed, and the Sun [Awareness] shines forth.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Cathy Preston » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:41 am

Wait a minute and he'll be unaware, be it asleep or in a coma or just preoccupied with a specific task. An illiterate or anyone for that matter never receives the Dharma of their own doing.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:59 am

Cathy Preston wrote:Dharma is a transformation of mind within mind by mind. All we can really do is aim to make the conditions right for the real Dharma to take root.


Cathy Preston wrote:Wait a minute and he'll be unaware, be it asleep or in a coma or just preoccupied with a specific task. An illiterate or anyone for that matter never receives the Dharma of their own doing.



Then what are you doing ["all we can really do is aim to make the conditions right"],
you are saying we DO something , and then say it's not of our doing , that we recieve the Dharma.


What is this transformation ?
What do we do to make the conditions right ?
And what is MIND ?
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:56 am

Last edited by Kunga on Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Cathy Preston » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:23 am

At some point you have to realize you've done all you can and stop grasping.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby jupiviv » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:50 am

Cathy Preston wrote:The Buddha has no dharma to speak of because the real dharma cannot be spoken. Dharma is a transformation of mind within mind by mind.


So what is the real dharma and what is the unreal dharma, and what is the distinction between them?

Dharma has nothing to do with learning concepts or meaning of words. An illiterate with the right conditions could receive and understand the Dharma.


Would he have to distinguish between real and unreal dharma like you did, or understand that it is "transformation of mind" etc.? If so, he would have to form concepts and language.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Cathy Preston » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:05 am

So what is the real dharma and what is the unreal dharma, and what is the distinction between them?


One is attempting to describe a dance, one is the actual dance.

Would he have to distinguish between real and unreal dharma like you did, or understand that it is "transformation of mind" etc.? If so, he would have to form concepts and language.


Does a butterfly need language or concepts to transform from a pupa?
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Cathy Preston » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:55 am

Would he have to distinguish between real and unreal dharma like you did, or understand that it is "transformation of mind" etc.? If so, he would have to form concepts and language.


Do you imagine that we can't use the mind without language? How did we even conceive of a language in the first place?
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:38 am

Cathy Preston wrote:At some point you have to realize you've done all you can and stop grasping.


Yes...I've been to that point many times...then I always "go back" to "beginers mind"....it is exasperating !
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:52 am

Does a butterfly need language or concepts to transform from a pupa?


How did you access 'dharma' and all it entails Cathy?
Did it fall from the sky?
What actually happened?
What conditions prevailed?
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:35 am

Please tell us your story first Dennis :)
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:40 am

All these,

:)'s
roll the eyes
lol's

are bullshit.
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:29 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:All these,

:)'s
roll the eyes
lol's

are bullshit.


No...that's just your bullshit for evading the question.


Edited the word excuse to bullshit :) LOL :P
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Kunga » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:33 am

How did you access 'dharma' and all it entails Dennis?
Did it fall from the sky?
What actually happened?
What conditions prevailed?
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Cathy Preston » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:57 am

How did you access 'dharma' and all it entails Cathy?

I didn't access anything. It always existed.
Did it fall from the sky?

no but it might as well have
What actually happened

there was a realization. It wasn't like oh I never noticed that before and now I do, nothing changed. nothing added, nothing taken away just an understanding.
What conditions prevailed?

I was driving my car at the time so I suppose my mind was sufficiently empty. But to say that was the specific cause would be incorrect, obviously other things were at play since I'd driven this way many many times before.


edited for spelling
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Re: Absolute Reality

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:04 pm

gratitude Cathy.
conventionally, the penny dropped after years of questing?

Do you subscribe to the impeccably reasoned Nagajuna conclusion that ultimately,
it's empty and meaningless,
that it's empty and meaningless.

or,
it's empty that it's empty,
no philosophic assertion can be made.

that has one authentically standing in 'don't know',
with the glorious effect that mind and world are opened up to wonder, astonishment and possibility.

that true wisdom opens up.

that the problem has been belief in the 'fitted' idea that phenomena exists from it's own side.
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