Otto Weininger on MTV

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
cousinbasil
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by cousinbasil »

Talking Ass wrote:Pretty cool video. Also liked the music quite a bit. Tell me, is Sex and Character a book that should be read straight through or is it the sort of book that can be read in parts? And if so, what is a good chapter to read? I have it but I haven't done much more than read random pages.
Nice video. SAC is a miasma of too much, too soon, in one mind. The ideas are like a series of stillbirths. If one has the stomach for that, I say go for it. If there were TV in his time, I would say that Otto spent too much time in front of it, trying to be the best TV watcher of his generation. There is something of the American Idol in him, please love me, I have briefly studied many things, and wish my grand pronouncement to be reviewed by every important intellect in the world, and if you don't love me I shall kill myself. The tragedy, of course, was never his death, but that a mind that could produce this ceased to contribute. It ceased to function. It is such an irritation that he is lionized in any way - a more mature suicide would have been preferable. Even Van Gogh produced masterpieces before his own suicide - to call SAC a masterpiece is as unforgivable as his death itself. It reeks of sentiment. The body of work is paltry - let it go, let it die, for wasn't that Weininger's own verdict?
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Talking Ass
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Talking Ass »

To take a 'moral' position in regard to someone, that is to guide another person morally, to insist on morality as one might do it with a child, is in a sense an act of 'violence'. From the little I have read so far, Weininger's whole motivation and thrust is essentially religious and moral. He did after all convert to Protestantism and it seems that he internalized these ideas and was driven by them. Christianity is after all essentially a moral religion, and it is God who says: "If you behave right I will maintain relatedness with you. If you do not, you will lose your relationship with Me. True, there is always a way to get it back (repentance and recommitment to the moral path), but I really do not have to stop at anything to get through to you."

This is the 'moral relationship' that W understands and values. He says that this is a higher relationship than that of blood-bond, which is specific, selfish and unconditional. He is saying that conditional relationships are "masculine" and also superior to "feminine", unconditional relationships.

He is coming at his analysis of maleness and femaleness through a moral lens, driven by his Protestantism.

I haven't read his Jewish critique section yet, but the problem, now, as opposed to then (pre-Holocaust), is that it is not possible to have a rational conversation about the pros and cons of the Jewish impact within the Occidental world. (The reasons are obvious: the slightest murmer of a question about Jewishness is read as 'anti-Semitism' as it often but not always is). But there was and I suppose there is an active, intelligent conversation that can be had on the topic. It is a crucial conversation and a relevant one. But, there is an underpinning that is often there and which muddies it: Judenhass (a better word than 'anti-semitism in my view). From what I have scanned so far of W, he is taking out on his own self (as a Jew) his own anger and contempt for what he considers retrograde in Judaism. Naturally, he does this as a recently-converted (convoited) Christian. Jewish reaction to Judaism is as old as the hills and is part and parcel of it, in fact. There have been thousands and thousands of Jewish converts to Christianity and they have all done it with well-reasoned arguments. As I say, it is an active and open conversation which is not easy to have. Not the least reason being: there is almost no one prepared to have that conversation. Not you. Not the QRS. And almost no one on this board. You'd have to have a wide familiarity with the context of Occidental letters and philosophy, and what that really means is insight into the 'manner of being' of the Occidental person. We are losing the ability to see ourselves in the mirror because few take the time to study 'the pool' from which all this comes.

I cannot see, yet, in W's writing anything that looks like judenhass. It might be contempt (normal) or deep frsutration (also normal) but it is not the virulent anti-semitism that became the Shoa. (But neither does this mean that there are not links to it as anti-semitism is a very, very complex phenomenon). (Which QRS have no understanding of nor interest in understanding, but of course there is not a great deal they are 'interested in' or understand with any profundity---a terrible shortcoming on their parts).

PS: cousinbasil---the true sockpuppet of himself and no other---has written something that seems quite on the money. A glimpse into an adolescent psychology. Too much, too soon. But, as with any philosopher and any group of ideas, we have the luxery of being able to sort through it, think it over in relation to our present, accept and reject, etc.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Cory Duchesne »

On Weininger's regard for jews; another philosopher mentioned that OW made a distinction between Zionism and Judaism, implicating that Zionism was the cloistering together as a homogeneous unit that he viewed as unspiritual and cowardly, whereas the instinct of Judaism was dispersion, which he seen as a masculine impulse. So while he critiqued the Jewish character, he also pointed to the solution for his people, implicating that they had made progress in a direction he approved of.
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Kunga
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Kunga »

Does anyone here know anything about his personal life and relationships with women [lovers] ?
Was he a virgin ?
I can't help but think his was very unsatisfactory.
What was his realtionship with his mother ?

I ran across another quote from Lao tzu :

"The Tyrant does not die a natural death. "

[O.W. and his rants on women], resulting in a hole in the heart.
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Dennis Mahar »

chattering monkeys chatter incessantly.
as an act of sheer ignorance in failing to distinguish Context from Content proceeds utter confusion.

Weininger's attack was on inauthentic modes of Being.
Weininger kick-started possibilities for women that were not women hiding in 'roles' like mother and prostitute.
Intelligent women acknowledge a debt to Otto.

Is it possible for you lot to get with it?

The Context you live out of Alex,
'failed writer',
is breathtakingly perfect in substance and execution,
kudos.
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Kunga
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Kunga »

The hatred of woman is always only, the not yet overcome hatred of one's own sexuality. [O.W.]

Also in a letter to a friend:

I would like to ask you one thing; do not expect to hear too much from me about myself........Perhaps someday I will
tell you of it....I lead besides the life that you know, always yet two or three others, of which you do not know. To this
I draw your attension; I cannot say more to you, but please do not inquire into it in any way. [O.W.]

Did he feel guilt/frustration because of his inability to express his sexuality openly and freely ?
He probebly thought any involvement with desire was sinful ?
He felt guilty of his [probable] homosexual liasons [that noone else knew about] ?

In one letter to his friend he says: I Kiss You !

In reading his letters I see his loneliness and need for compainionship with his friend, most men would be corresponding like this
with a female lover....but he was closer to men, and so craved for their understanding and compainonship....It's as if he was writing to his lover, but his friend was straight.....he [Otto] tried to pound some sense into his friends head about women, and why waste time pursuing them.......


http://www.theabsolute.net/ottow/aphlett.pdf
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

  • "Donkey-cult among the Jews. The Jew is the castigation of the donkey: he is not stupid at all." (from OW's 'Notebook')
It's a complex topic. Vienna at the time was in the midst of a suicide craze. Almost fashionable with intellectuals, artistocrast and poets. One could say Weininger's suicide is what made him so average in his context. Or perhaps he became very literally a man of his time" "a criminal dies from inside (time), the sick person from outside". He was becoming convinced in his low energy moods that he was a criminal as he defined it following his own logic and value system.

And most people overlook the documented fact that Weininger was experiencing violent mood swings already for a long while. It's there in the correspondence. As for Otto's demeise, the following passage of Nietzsche hints at a psychological framework that could explain it a bit:
With this Homeric happiness in one's soul one is also more capable of suffering than any other creature under the sun. This is the only price for which one can buy the most precious shell that the waves of existence have ever yet washed on the shore. As its owner one becomes ever more refined in pain and ultimately too refined; any small dejection and nausea was quite enough in the end to spoil life for Homer. He had been unable to guess a foolish little riddle posed to him by some fishermen. Yes, little riddles are the danger that confronts those who are happiest. (from The Gay Science, trans. W. Kaufmann, s. 302).
and just noticed this one too:
But thanks to your drunkenness you never break a limb;, your muscles are too relaxed and your brain too benighted for you to find the stones of these stairs as hard as we do. For us life is more dangerous: we are made of glass; woe unto us if we merely bump ourselves! And all is lost if we fall (s. 154)
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jupiviv
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by jupiviv »

Talking Ass wrote:But it is not prostitution as it may have been in Weininger's day: you don't have to pay for her or keep her as your mistress. Or if you do the upkeep is minimal.
"It must be noted that the type of the prostitute includes not only women who sell themselves, but also many so-called nice girls and married women, some of whom never commit adultery not because the circumstances are not favorable, but because they themselves do not allow things to reach that point." - Weininger

He says that right at the beginning. You should read this material before commenting on it.
Cory Duchesne wrote:You have a wildly different interpretation than I do. You're taking this very literally to the point where I wouldn't even no where to begin to help you see things like I do, but it would appear very different.
I don't think Weininger was talking metaphorically. He was clearly making a division between the behaviours of empirical women.
His choice in the word "prostitute" is ironic, first of all.

For instance, the mother type engages in sex with her husband in return for material goods, she is very controlling and even mean.

The prostitute, on the other hand, enjoys sex and danger for it's own sake, but refuses to take any responsibility, which includes carelessness in parenting. She is not meant for children. Therefore, around the prostitute type are poets, philosophers, musicians, criminals and madmen. Any dangerous, risky lifestyle for a male grants him access mostly to these types of women.

The prostitute type is used for sex, support, inspiration, and little else. She is the muse and cheering companion.

The mother type is conscious of being used, and takes more responsibility for her role in the community, taking pride in her children and her husbands social standing. She is more worldly.

I don't think Weininger used the word prostitute ironically. He was just using a word that indicates women closest to the type he was trying to describe. Other than that I think this is mostly right.

I'm not sure about the prostitute being the muse to philosophers etc. Let's take Kierkegaard for example. Was Regine of the prostitute type? I don't think so. Nietzsche and Weininger never had any serious romantic relationships with any women. Nor did Schopenhauer or Kant. Socrates had Xanthippe - was she of the prostitute type? I don't know. But she was definitely not his muse. Jesus supposedly redeemed a prostitute, so that doesn't count either. There is only one example I can think of, and that is Seneca. But he is far from being a great philosopher. Even among poets and musicians there aren't many examples of this. Let's take Bach, arguably the greatest composer of all time - he had 10 or so children with his wife, so there you go. Goethe also married and had several children with his "muse".

Overall, I would say there's no real pattern visible that 'prostitutes' are typically selected by great men to be their muses. And the really great men, like Jesus, go far beyond the need for any kind of attachment with a woman. That is why it's precisely they who can emancipate women.

All that said, one reason I can imagine why the prostitute might be a better muse is that she'll probably leave the man before his mind is shut down completely. Kierkegaard says this:

"As I have said, it is through woman that ideality is born into the world and—what were man without her! There is many a man who has become a genius through a woman, many a one a hero, many a one a poet, many a one even a saint; but he did not become a genius through the woman he married, for through her he only became a privy councillor; he did not become a hero through the woman he married, for through her he only became a general; he did not become a poet through the woman he married, for through her he only became a father; he did not become a saint through the woman he married, for he did not marry, and would have married but one—the one whom he did not marry; just as the others became a genius, became a hero, became a poet through the help of the woman they did not marry. If woman's ideality were in itself inspiring, why, then the inspiring woman would be the one to whom a man is united for life. But life tells a different story. It is only by a negative relation to her that man is rendered productive in his ideal endeavors."
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Kunga
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Weininger's attack was on inauthentic modes of Being.
Weininger kick-started possibilities for women that were not women hiding in 'roles' like mother and prostitute.
Intelligent women acknowledge a debt to Otto.

I just started reading him..
I want to understand more about his incounters with women.
I want to understand why he critised women.
He parrots others that have gone before him,
His thoughts are just regurgitated from other sources.

Granted, he must love so deeply, to be this sensitive.
But manic-depression colors everthing black. [Eventually]
Last edited by Kunga on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jupiviv
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by jupiviv »

I've got to laugh when reading some of the posts on this thread. Reading any criticism of Weininger's work is usually like watching someone trying to put out a house fire by watering the front lawn.
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Talking Ass
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Talking Ass »

Jupi, that comment was not so much a comment on W but a comment on my own experiences. I am interested in W's analysis only insofar as I can bend it to serve my purposes, and bend it I will. I may wrap it around some heads too. ;-)

I am not taking this as some sort of textbook that must be studied and reported on 'correctly'. I leave that to you... ;-)

I have a feeling that he might not have known enough in a personal sense about the types of women he wrote about to have said more than second and third-rate things. But that's okay. I still think his 'study' has a lot of merit. In any case, it had a huge impact on intellectual communities all over the world in its day. Unfortunately, QRS have totally misrepresented it, and you cannot represent it either (in my view) because of your own status as a virgin. You actually have to have interacted with the female 'world' to understand it. Do you see my point?

And I agree with you that he was not being 'ironic'. It would be much better if he were! Irony comes with a little age, don't you think? He was 'too young'.
Jupi wrote: I've got to laugh when reading some of the posts on this thread. Reading any criticism of Weininger's work is usually like watching someone trying to put out a house fire by watering the front lawn.
Laughing is a good thing! It is quite good for the health they say. But would you kindly elaborate on what exactly you are referring to?
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jupiviv
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by jupiviv »

Talking Ass wrote:You actually have to have interacted with the female 'world' to understand it. Do you see my point?
Do you also have to interact with the kettle 'world' to understand kettles?
And I agree with you that he was not being 'ironic'. It would be much better if he were! Irony comes with a little age, don't you think? He was 'too young'.
I don't think you agree with me, because by saying he wasn't being ironic I was merely stating a fact and not criticising the material.
Jupi wrote: I've got to laugh when reading some of the posts on this thread. Reading any criticism of Weininger's work is usually like watching someone trying to put out a house fire by watering the front lawn.
Laughing is a good thing! It is quite good for the health they say. But would you kindly elaborate on what exactly you are referring to?[/quote]

The fact that most of the posts on this thread are assaults upon his character and work by people who haven't even read his books. You're completely ignoring the main material and instead focusing on things that are completely irrelevant to it. Slinging mud and hoping some of it sticks.
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David Quinn
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by David Quinn »

An interesting thread, but I'm not sure about Alex's recent habit of placing full-stops in the middle of sentences. Has he developed Tourette's Syndrome or something?

Talking Ass wrote: Jewish reaction to Judaism is as old as the hills and is part and parcel of it, in fact. There have been thousands and thousands of Jewish converts to Christianity and they have all done it with well-reasoned arguments. As I say, it is an active and open conversation which is not easy to have. Not the least reason being: there is almost no one prepared to have that conversation. Not you. Not the QRS. And almost no one on this board.

I'm not sure I could think of a more boring topic to think about, but each to his own.

PS: cousinbasil---the true sockpuppet of himself and no other---has written something that seems quite on the money. A glimpse into an adolescent psychology. Too much, too soon.
That's pretty much my view of it. Brilliant, but undeveloped.

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Talking Ass
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Talking Ass »

Sorry about the 'fullstops'. I have neen speaking Kalahari Bushman Dialect almost exclusively now for 3 weeks. They aren't stops but rather 'tongue-clicks'. Where you see one, just include a tongue-click. Takes getting used to, I know.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Kunga,
the chief archetypes set forth for women in that shit-rag called the Bible,
were,
Mary (mother)
Magdalene (prostitute)
cousinbasil
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by cousinbasil »

DQ wrote:An interesting thread, but I'm not sure about Alex's recent habit of placing of full-stops in the middle of sentences. Has he developed Tourette's Syndrome or something?
It's his fucking iPhone or Android, who cares. It's not the real thing. I would pay to see Alex with Tourette's! It would be the old TV Red Skelton gag I copy and paste here:

"All this talk of motorhomes in earthquakes reminds me of a very funny skit by Red Skelton,,,, He showed how a drunkard might well walk (He was very good at that part) weaving and stumbling all around... Then he said "Same drunk in an Earthquake" and started walking like a sober person on a non-earthquake day..."
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Kunga
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Kunga,
the chief archetypes set forth for women in that shit-rag called the Bible,
were,
Mary (mother)
Magdalene (prostitute)

O.K.

I Identify with them both.

Only I think it's man that created those roles for woman, to please himself.
O.W. put's the blame on women only.
obviously he was inexperienced and immature.
He admits that too, in the begining of his exposition:


"The psychology used in this exposition is purely philosophical, although its characteristic method, justified by the subject, is to set out from the most trivial details of experience."


http://feastofhateandfear.com/archives/otto.html
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Bobo »

Undeveloped you say, what I feel is that some of what lurks here appears to be developed over the poor quality criticisms of 'the' scripture. More like an extension rather than a development. Or maybe a reduction. While 'development' may be a dubious word for usage outside the personal, for example the use of the 'past sages' over here does not come across as a development.
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Dennis Mahar »

O.K.

I Identify with them both.
Only because the culture puts it into your head.
Only I think it's man that created those roles for woman, to please himself.
No excuses.
O.W. put's the blame on women only.
obviously he was inexperienced and immature.
Take the authentic message, don't dwell on the messenger.

QRS attempts to generate another possibility for women.
Misogynists try to tear down QRS.
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Talking Ass
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Talking Ass »

Is that what Dennis is putting down these days? I cannot see his posts unless someone quotes them, having put his wonderful self on Ignore. But the issue of women in the Bible is interesting. One of the most interesting is Lileth, though she is only found in the Talmud (which makes by the way a softer sort of shit-rag).
  • In Jewish folklore, from the 8th–10th centuries Alphabet of Ben Sira onwards, Lilith becomes Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time and from the same earth as Adam. This contrasts with Eve, who was created from one of Adam's ribs. The legend was greatly developed during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadic midrashim, the Zohar and Jewish mysticism. In the 13th Century writings of Rabbi Isaac ben Jacob ha-Cohen, for example, Lilith left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she mated with archangel Samael. The resulting Lilith legend is still commonly used as source material in modern Western culture, literature, occultism, fantasy, and horror.
Norea is also an unusual figure, though not quite a person. In her there are certainly shadowings of other possibilities for a woman.
  • "She burned Noah's Ark three times, then revealed the means of recovering stolen sparks through sexual emissions."

Good Heavens. I wonder if Weininger knew anything about her?
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Talking Ass »

Here is a lesson in my new tongue-clicking language.

This one goes out to Weininger.

And for you lovers of [Kalahari] poetry...
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You don't ignore me pal, you are a liar.

Words, phrases, themes I use consistently show up in your posts days or weeks later.

You're my greatest fan.
I'm in your brain like toast out of a toaster.
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by jupiviv »

David Quinn wrote:
Talking Ass wrote:PS: cousinbasil---the true sockpuppet of himself and no other---has written something that seems quite on the money. A glimpse into an adolescent psychology. Too much, too soon.
That's pretty much my view of it. Brilliant, but undeveloped.

I wouldn't call him undeveloped. He just liked to use his own definitions, and use symbolism and metaphors in order to show the relations between things. He didn't always hit the mark, but mistakes can't be avoided. What matters is that he never seems to have gotten caught up in his mistakes, unless you want to account for his personal life and suicide.

Also, "too much, too soon" compared to who? How much would have been enough at his age? One can't put a limit on one's reasoning without straying from reasoning. One either reaches the end of the way or abandons it altogether.
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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by David Quinn »

Bobo wrote:Undeveloped you say, what I feel is that some of what lurks here appears to be developed over the poor quality criticisms of 'the' scripture. More like an extension rather than a development. Or maybe a reduction. While 'development' may be a dubious word for usage outside the personal, for example the use of the 'past sages' over here does not come across as a development.
I disagree, of course. The words of the "past sages" are so timeless and profound that their full meaning has to be rediscovered anew with each passing generation. As far as wisdom is concerned, every individual starts afresh.

If only a single individual, upon encountering these words, awakens to his true nature, then that constitutes a "development" - even though such a development is, in a sense, merely a reinvention of developments in past generations. For the individual concerned, the past is irrelevant.

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Re: Otto Weininger on MTV

Post by David Quinn »

jupiviv wrote:
David Quinn wrote:
Talking Ass wrote:PS: cousinbasil---the true sockpuppet of himself and no other---has written something that seems quite on the money. A glimpse into an adolescent psychology. Too much, too soon.
That's pretty much my view of it. Brilliant, but undeveloped.
I wouldn't call him undeveloped. He just liked to use his own definitions, and use symbolism and metaphors in order to show the relations between things. He didn't always hit the mark, but mistakes can't be avoided. What matters is that he never seems to have gotten caught up in his mistakes, unless you want to account for his personal life and suicide.
Undeveloped in the sense that he wrote Sex and Character and pursued his thought during the first wave of his philosophical career. He unleashed a tsunami of brilliance, if you like, but didn't hang around long enough to assess that first wave with an older, wiser head and make the necessary corrections.

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