Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby movingalways » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:05 am

What is reality? No being of sense intellect knows, because it lives of a reflected awareness. The question on the mind of all who acknowledge the condition of reflection, is, can it this condition be removed? This writer says yes, it can. How is the removal of the mirror accomplished?

By reasoning the things of God, of Reality, until the reasoning becomes an unshakeable conclusion, a permanent foundation of living wisdom or truth. What is the unshakeable conclusion of reasoning that becomes a permanent foundation of living truth? That by its very definition, a reflection is not real.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:46 am

it's empty and meaningless,
that
it's empty and meaningless.

void.

void and drama.
context and content.

not separate.
you are everything and everything is you.
non-duality.
One Being.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Kunga » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:13 am

Empty/Meaningless=Full/Meaningful

Samsara=Nirvana

:)
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:40 am

Empty/Meaningless=Full/Meaningful


exactly!

you have to get the full import of empty/meaningless (void)

in order to get opened up.

end of suffering does not mean end of Being.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Kunga » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:55 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:end of suffering does not mean end of Being.


Suffering/Relative reality
No suffering/Ultimate Reality

Relative Reality= Ultimate Reality


No matter how much we interpret it elaborately or in many ways, the conclusion goes back to the purity of the mind, the purity of the nature. When it goes back to the purity that also brings a kind of idea, how can it be two things? It is mind in relative reality but in ultimate reality it is purity. One thing can be shared into two different places, but in fact it is same thing. This is the nature of the inseparability of these two things, in other words we can call it the non-differentiation between the relative and ultimate reality, or the co-emergence of samsara and nirvana or the inseparability of samsara and nirvana.
http://www.kbi.com.au/cgi-bin/engine.pl ... tml&Rec=36
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Kunga » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:12 am

"To say it simply, it is seen by the wisdom, what mind sees is mostly intellectually. Wisdom doesn't see it as samsara and nirvana."

[quoted from that same websight i linked above]

So although I understand this intellectually...I haven't yet realized this experiencially.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:36 am

So although I understand this intellectually...I haven't yet realized this experiencially.


It's important to have the logic just so.

A separate self believed in drags 'rules' with it from the past in order to get a future.
The future it gets is the past.

Void past, leave it where it belongs.
Void future, leave it where it belongs.

existence has no particular intentionality,
capricious if anything.

be free.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Kunga » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:45 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:be free.



Be=The Present Moment

Timeless in Time


Sleep Naked
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:18 pm

Timeless in Time


You got it.
Non-duality.

Sleep Naked


Buy a doona.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby movingalways » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:29 pm

It is true that you are both aspects of your awareness, Being and its reflection. However, it is up to you which aspect you serve, the stillness of Nirvana, the Father, the Clear Light, or the ever moving, ever changing drama of samsara, the Lord God, the projection of the reflection. If you sow the former, you sow grace and compassion. If you sow the latter, you sow whatever is the emotion/desire of the moment.

It is when one does not see that they have a choice between becoming the stillness of themselves or the drama of themselves that they suffer. Did not the Buddha enter Nirvana, not samsara? Did not Jesus ascend into Heaven, not earth?

You have a choice. This is the truth that saves.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:45 am

If one breaks thru' or opens to the infinite,
one is still causally embodied, embedded in a World, affective, enactive.
All that doesn't just get dropped.

Compassion isn't just a word.

Emotions are purer and especially vivid.

Rather than sitting straight on a cushion which I find uncomfortable, snuggling in a doona serves brilliantly as a 'space' for those emotions to process until the restoration point called Serenity arises. A particularly impactful circumstance can take days as each and every nuance untangles.
As being-in-action from a compassionate centre requires focus and presence, an immense amount of stuff gets absorbed. It's not coming from 'I can't be bothered'.
People tend not to take time out to integrate thoughts/emotions and hardly ever come to the next encounter empty of attitude.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Cahoot » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:02 pm

movingalways wrote:It is true that you are both aspects of your awareness, Being and its reflection. However, it is up to you which aspect you serve, the stillness of Nirvana, the Father, the Clear Light, or the ever moving, ever changing drama of samsara, the Lord God, the projection of the reflection. If you sow the former, you sow grace and compassion. If you sow the latter, you sow whatever is the emotion/desire of the moment.

It is when one does not see that they have a choice between becoming the stillness of themselves or the drama of themselves that they suffer. Did not the Buddha enter Nirvana, not samsara? Did not Jesus ascend into Heaven, not earth?

You have a choice. This is the truth that saves.

Howdy,

People always do what they must do.

For example, whether or not you choose, if you respond to this posting it is because you must. If you don’t respond, it is because you must.

Determining why you must, before and after the action, can be a practice of self-deception or truth.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:14 am

do the locomotion with me
has this thing got brakes?
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Cahoot » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:13 am

nope
like a totem
gyroscope
centered on
the beak tip of a
hummingbird
claw
centered on
a spinning top
always moving, never moving
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:00 am

what dominates?
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Cahoot » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:30 pm

that :)
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:40 pm

that :)


that's all folks.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Cahoot » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:17 pm

I know that line. ;)

Empirically and rationally, realizing that people always do what they must opens the door for equanimity and forgiveness. Forgiveness loosens attachments. Attention freed from maintaining attachments naturally points awareness towards balance.

The movement towards balance is motive force. Water moves to seek its own level (balance characterized by water.) Atmosphere moves as wind to equalize pressure (balance characterized by air.) Fat kid moves forward on the teeter-totter (balance characterized by playground etiquette.) Electrons move as energy to fill valence shells (or something like that.)

Under appropriate conditions, seems that realizing the interplay of accurately perceived natural forces to be a balancing movement could correlate with anthropomorphizing elemental forces into an accurate, balancing interplay among malevolent and beneficial entities.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:44 pm

Well, you've offered some kind of picture of causes/conditions there, each expresses it differently.

The important point is that recognising emptiness or 'how it is' enables a direct knowledge of 'what's what'.
Seeing what's what discloses an ordinate amount of unnecessary suffering prevailing. Suffering that really doesn't need to be there. It's a shock to walk out the door or turn on the tv to see what's going down.

At that moment a possibility opens up of peace for human race or harmonious relations between people.
What is postulated as bad behaviour is seen as irrational in the context of reducing suffering and is transformable thru' education.

The crooners moan on about 'What the World needs now is Love, sweet Love'
Crap.
'What the World needs now is Reason, sweet Reason'.

Reason gets to the primordial 'ground' of Being.

For the most part, explorations into empirical World come up with ever more sophisticated weapons to increase suffering and machinery to destroy environment.

Being gets forgotten.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby movingalways » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:04 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:If one breaks thru' or opens to the infinite,
one is still causally embodied, embedded in a World, affective, enactive.
All that doesn't just get dropped.

Compassion isn't just a word.

Emotions are purer and especially vivid.

Rather than sitting straight on a cushion which I find uncomfortable, snuggling in a doona serves brilliantly as a 'space' for those emotions to process until the restoration point called Serenity arises. A particularly impactful circumstance can take days as each and every nuance untangles.
As being-in-action from a compassionate centre requires focus and presence, an immense amount of stuff gets absorbed. It's not coming from 'I can't be bothered'.
People tend not to take time out to integrate thoughts/emotions and hardly ever come to the next encounter empty of attitude.


Where did I say that I sit on a cushion?
Have I not already said what compassion means to me, which was certainly not that it is 'just a word?'
Where have I said that when the door to the infinite opens that one's causal body 'just gets dropped?'

Your projection of Dennis upon Pam has been an ongoing issue between us. You are not alone in this human dance of self-righteousness disguised as righteousness, after all, it is reasonable, is it not? This is why I say reasonableness is not an activity of purification of relativity, that instead, only speaking the truth of what one knows to be true of themselves allows the light of the absolute to shine through.

If our future conversations are not word to word, thought to thought, idea to idea, speaking only of our integrity of I, then, for the sake of integrity, I will no longer respond to you.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby movingalways » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:45 am

Cahoot wrote:
movingalways wrote:It is true that you are both aspects of your awareness, Being and its reflection. However, it is up to you which aspect you serve, the stillness of Nirvana, the Father, the Clear Light, or the ever moving, ever changing drama of samsara, the Lord God, the projection of the reflection. If you sow the former, you sow grace and compassion. If you sow the latter, you sow whatever is the emotion/desire of the moment.

It is when one does not see that they have a choice between becoming the stillness of themselves or the drama of themselves that they suffer. Did not the Buddha enter Nirvana, not samsara? Did not Jesus ascend into Heaven, not earth?

You have a choice. This is the truth that saves.

Howdy,

People always do what they must do.

For example, whether or not you choose, if you respond to this posting it is because you must. If you don’t respond, it is because you must.

Determining why you must, before and after the action, can be a practice of self-deception or truth.


Yes, people always do what they must do. The question is, what is the source of this "must?" If it is viewed as being sourced in mind of relativity, either called man or God, then determining why you must, before and after the action is, by definition, always a practice of self-deception. If it is viewed as being sourced in Absolute Mind then there is no self-deception, for every thought sourced in the Absolute, by definition, is purposed to purify the relative.

Choice does not exist in Absolute Mind, but there is no way relative mind can be purified by Absolute Mind unless it understands the language, unless it is a conscious act of purification, ergo the need for the concept of "choice." One must use the mind to go beyond the mind.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby movingalways » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:03 am

Cahoot wrote:I know that line. ;)

Empirically and rationally, realizing that people always do what they must opens the door for equanimity and forgiveness. Forgiveness loosens attachments. Attention freed from maintaining attachments naturally points awareness towards balance.

The movement towards balance is motive force. Water moves to seek its own level (balance characterized by water.) Atmosphere moves as wind to equalize pressure (balance characterized by air.) Fat kid moves forward on the teeter-totter (balance characterized by playground etiquette.) Electrons move as energy to fill valence shells (or something like that.)

Under appropriate conditions, seems that realizing the interplay of accurately perceived natural forces to be a balancing movement could correlate with anthropomorphizing elemental forces into an accurate, balancing interplay among malevolent and beneficial entities.


Cahoot, I like your use of the word "points" awareness toward balance, because what it is saying is that balance is already present. Which means that the movement toward balance, by definition of balance's eternal presence, is a delusion.

Therefore, to be balance or to be in balance, one must be purified of the delusion of movement.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:30 am

If our future conversations are not word to word, thought to thought, idea to idea, speaking only of our integrity of I, then, for the sake of integrity, I will no longer respond to you.

You're talking to yourself.
Geddit?

A pep talk.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby Cahoot » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:59 pm

Heya Pam,

Then I’d have to say:

- the must, or motive force, is the natural movement towards balance.

- balance is motionless.

- balance occurs when forces reach equilibrium.

- sooner or later a compounded thing becomes motionless, though its compounded components continue moving as components in the balancing act until they too become still.

- though psychological movement can be complexly cloaked by intricate interplay of causalities and attachments, the same natural movement applies. Thus the movement of mind, or thought, moves towards balance.

Thus:
The spirit of reason is motion.
Becoming is motion.
The fruit of the spirit of reason is stillness.
Being is stillness.
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Re: Becoming the fruit of the spirit of reason

Postby movingalways » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:41 pm

Heya Cahoot,

Then I’d have to say:

- the must, or motive force, is the natural movement towards balance.

- balance is motionless.

- balance occurs when forces reach equilibrium.

- sooner or later a compounded thing becomes motionless, though its compounded components continue moving as components in the balancing act until they too become still.

- though psychological movement can be complexly cloaked by intricate interplay of causalities and attachments, the same natural movement applies. Thus the movement of mind, or thought, moves towards balance.

Thus:
The spirit of reason is motion.
Becoming is motion.
The fruit of the spirit of reason is stillness.
Being is stillness.



Since balance is already established, it is not that the must, or motive force is the natural movement toward balance, or that forces reach equilibrium, but that it is the cleanser or astringent force that removes the veil of "toward" and "reach" and "equilibrium."

We cannot say what balance is, we can only observes its effect on our being.
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