What is reality, what is a 2x4?

[Dennis Mahar]

You've called it as a dire situation Donald.
You seem to have hit the panic button.
You sound like a shrill police siren.
mind on fire.

Give us some rational strategy lad.

[Tomas]

"..you told me yourself not to post anger"

oops! Yes I did.. My bad.. Sometimes I don't know it's anger.. The words are just there the moment the feeling is there...

I thought this was a "genius forum"..?

I can't find the switches to delete my membership..? Where is it?..

Canadians have a rough time here at Genius.

Kick back, enjoy the scene pass you by.

[Talking Ass]

Personally, I appreciate Donald's posts. I think the Vision of Hell is a necessary aspect of 'spiritual life'. It could be also because I am reading a so-called radical theolgian (Thomas Altizer: The Descent Into Hell) and that he proposes that this is what spiritual life must be: a confrontation with all that is hellish in ourselves, the culture, the world itself. Many great souls have dealt on this: Blake, Kierkegaard, Marx, Dostoevsky, Nietzsche and also Freud. Not to mention St Paul, Augustine and Luther!

[Talking Ass]

'Rational strategy' is so like GF!

It seems to me that Donald is dealing with Apocalyptic facts and symbols...

"At the very least, true apocalyptic symbols and images must point to or embody a total reversal of all meaning, of all value, of all actuality, and of all identity. Apocalyptic languages pierces to the center of that which is immediately apparent and real, inverting that center so as to reverse the meaning of a given world, thereby making possible the celebration of the presence and activity of an opposite world." ---T. Altizer

[Dennis Mahar]

Apocalyptic languages pierces to the center of that which is immediately apparent and real, inverting that center so as to reverse the meaning of a given world, thereby making possible the celebration of the presence and activity of an opposite world."

Job done.
Took about 5 minutes.
empty and meaningless.

Meanwhile.

[Talking Ass]

...The story of your intellectual, emotional, spiritual, moral, experiential life. About five minutes of effort, conclusion pre-established!

I suggest a series of abbreviations:

BTDT
E & M

It would save considerable time!

[Whatshappening]

quote="Dennis Mahar"]I'm not getting the concepts:
(in)actionable
in-understanding

is that referring to the 'in' of the person, their mindset.

Surely a master builder is a condition due to the causes coaching/experience/familiarity.
the apprentice is a condition that is lacking those causes.[/quote]

Actionable means able to do something, it's changeable. In-actionable means unable to do something, it's unchangeable. I can do lots with a 2x4, but I can't make it do what a 2x6 can. I can('t) do lots with a Dennis that are different from what I can('t) do with a Leslie Ann.

Regarding in-understandable, read it as incomprehensible.

"Surely a master builder is a condition due to the causes coaching/experience/familiarity", the psychology of learning is, largely, beyond my scope. and somewhat one sided in this context. "...coaching/experience/familiarity" is the psychology side, reality is the other.

A master builder is a condition of big mindedness, working what's (im)possible, with lots of action-ability (ie tools and tricks of the trade).

This could just as easily read, a master person is a condition of "big mindedness", working what's (im)possible, with lots of action-ability, with lots of build-ability.

With this perspective, fully understood, the master builder(person) realizes they have no problems, all they have, instead, are cornerstones.

Cornerstone
Gary

P.S. Cornerstone is "important since all other stones will be set in reference to this stone".

[Dennis Mahar]

The 'doing' of a master builder is actually a 'dealing with'.

What a master builder is dealing with is Suffering.

He is in action to forestall the suffering entailed in human being exposed to the elements.

There are things lying around in nature that the MB conceives as 'possibilities' to enlist in his project to reduce suffering.

A stone lying around in a gully has no meaning until a MB takes a hold of it and 'employs' it in his project.

Can we say 'existential reality' is,
the participation of mind and matter.

that suffering is the 'dealing with'

that wisdom garnered from reason participates most effectively.

[David Quinn]

I can't find the switches to delete my membership..? Where is it?..

Sorry, you have to be a genius to exit this place.

-

[Whatshappening]

quote="Dennis Mahar"]The 'doing' of a master builder is actually a 'dealing with'.

What a master builder is dealing with is Suffering.

He is in action to forestall the suffering entailed in human being exposed to the elements.

That's apprentice kind of thinking. The MB is not in action to forestall suffering, any of that is purely incidental.

They are in action to be inaction, in the same sense that the action of life is to keep itself alive or the action of reality. The MB is doing the same thing, if it avoids suffering, so be it. If it requires suffering, so be it. These too are, just, (in)actionable structure.

The MB is a mindset in service to itself any other results are incidental. Just like a carpenter in service of their carpentry incidentally producing a house, self-fully producing a house. (MBness, itself, is produced incidentally)



Can we say 'existential reality' is,
the participation of mind and matter.

that (suffering) "self-fully, self sustaining" is the 'dealing with'

that wisdom garnered from reason participates most effectively.[/quote]

Self-fully
Gary

P.S. The existential in 'existential reality' is redundant coming from a thinking mind.

[Whatshappening]

I can't find the switches to delete my membership..? Where is it?..

Sorry, you have to be a genius to exit this place.

-

Or will-less(lol), one of the two.

Is there a difference?

Difference
Gary

[Talking Ass]

I am also inclinded to appreciate Donald's introduction of these imaginal futuristic machines; these empowering devices that can only enter the world when consciousness has been refined. As a symbol, if one were inclined to take it as that, the meaning is that we are on the verge of the radically new, the completely unforeseen and unimagined, but our attraction to and addiction to 'thanatos', the body of death, the rotting conceptual world in which we writhe attempting to 'live' within what is putrid instead of embracing an impulse that comes to us not from the past...but from the future! is a symbol of some [hidden] relevance.

[David Quinn]

Oh, stop masturbating, Alex!

-

[Dennis Mahar]

That's apprentice kind of thinking. The MB is not in action to forestall suffering, any of that is purely incidental.

I wouldn't buy a house off you in order for you to self-fulfill.
I'd buy it to protect against the elements.

You'd get the money to access the doc with the pile of stethoscopes when you're crook in order to alleviate that suffering.

[Dan Rowden]

I am also inclinded to appreciate Donald's introduction of these imaginal futuristic machines; these empowering devices that can only enter the world when consciousness has been refined. As a symbol, if one were inclined to take it as that, the meaning is that we are on the verge of the radically new, the completely unforeseen and unimagined, but our attraction to and addiction to 'thanatos', the body of death, the rotting conceptual world in which we writhe attempting to 'live' within what is putrid instead of embracing an impulse that comes to us not from the past...but from the future! is a symbol of some [hidden] relevance.

So, you're entertained rarther than concerned. Why do I feel that is to be expected.

[Talking Ass]

Just as with you, or with Jufa, or with Dennis, or Movingalways, or Bob, or anyone who writes here, the last thing I can be is 'concerned'. I am not here to engage in therapeutics. People are driven along, for 'good' or for 'evil' by (as you might say) certain forms of causation-karma. This is a place where certain forms of obsessive madness are displayed---perfected even! There is even a certain beauty in the ways that people manifest these obsessions. I just happen to think that Donald's had some quite beautiful aspects. There is a great deal of heart there. I have no idea what he has to live or where it will take him. But is there any reason why I cannot say that---in comparison to many---I appreciate his thoughts?

Just as you (Dan) are driven along by certain obsessive Kierkegaardian (and other) 'obsessions' which have come into our Western world from sources you are unaware of and about which you have only limited self-consciousness, so too Donald's 'vision' is quite emblematic of quite similar 'originating forces' but of those forces he is likely unaware. But it isn't 'entertainment' (that is likely your own limited structure speaking) it is more like deep curiosity. I woulnd't expect you to understand [much] about that. I certainly don't suppose you'd be interested in it.

The conversations around here---and you have a definite part in this even by your basic silence---remind me of rodents running in a wheel! Can I be 'concerned' about that? Why should I! It is what you choose, even though there are so many alternatives...

I more desire to know Why. It is for me a slow process of understanding [better] and I feel I am [slowly] making progress toward that...

[Dan Rowden]

Translation: I don't care much about people's suffering so long as they entertain me with it.

[Talking Ass]

No Dan. That's just a restatement of your original premise.

*Yawn*

But you will understand none of this! Speak in tones and colors that come from an inconceived place---possibly even the future!---and by-pass the carrion-consciousness! Don't speak to death, speak to life.

You need a better translator!

[Dan Rowden]

No, my translation is perfectly fine - you will totally overlook the source and broader reality of an individual's aesthetic force (to your sensibilities) so long as it's entertaining for you. I don't need to adjust my original premise because your denial of its accuracy is meaningless.

[Talking Ass]

'Enforcing one's opinion' and insisting on it at all costs is part-and-parcel of your and many others shtick. 'This is my little machine, these are its parts, I move this one here and look, that one slides down'. Kachunk! And so it goes.

And naturally, you can't really converse with a machine. Machine-thinking is a sort of disease. I am uncertain what the cure is. Like with 'Narcissism' it may only be 'spiritual awakening' but I have no idea how to precipitate that---except to speak in tones and colors that come from an unforeseen 'future'.

We know how you view 'aesthetics' and the way your mind's parts clink together with your limited idea about it.

Donald's visions remind me of Blake and in that sense show imagination at work within spirituality. Very important and relevant in my view. If there is 'pathology' to be 'concerned' about, there are darker, more machine-like varieties that should concern us all...

;-)

We also know how you are bound to rigid ideas about 'logic" and such.

But there are other alternatives, or other parts and aspects.

[Talking Ass]

"The morning comes, the night decays, the watchmen
leave their station
The grave is burst, the spices shed, the linen wrapped up;
The bones of death, the cov'ring clay, the sinews shrunk
& dry'd
Reviving shake, inspiring move, breathing, awakening,
Spring like redeemed captives when their bonds and bars
are burst."

But why bother to share what cannot get through your [mental] door? Rather, there is a butterfly coming from your inconceived future---yes! I see it!---who will land on your brow of logic and whisper wonders you never imagined!

Then YOU will sing:

"Sweet smiles, in the night
hover o'er my happy child.
Sweet smiles; Mother's smiles,
All the livelong night beguiles."

[guest_of_logic]

Translation: I don't care much about people's suffering so long as they entertain me with it.

Really, Dan? You want to paint Alex as some kind of monster, entertained by other people's suffering, and yourself implicitly in contrast as a caring human being? That's a pretty low move. Perhaps it goes to show how threatening you find the alternatives Alex gives voice to, even though you wouldn't consciously admit that, preferring to tell us and yourself that it's all about your irritation at his "aesthetics".

Whilst the obvious subtext of your "translation" is that, in contrast to Alex, you care about DonaldJ's suffering, I think it's plausible given the context of this forum and your position in it to read the further subtext: "and I, Dan Rowden, have the tools to alleviate his suffering".

If so, then: the idea that a world-view (the GF world-view) that either is ignorant of, that denies the existence of, or that dismisses the significance of the sorts of things that Donald experiences and talks about could offer any solace to him is hopelessly mistaken. He seems to be all about expansion; the GF world-view on the other hand can only offer him reduction.

Anyhow, the conversation between Kunga, cousinbasil and Donald on hatred for evil is fascinating. As an unapologetic adherent of manichaeanism (the fundamental doctrine - I know little of the actual religion), to me the question of the nature of evil is crucial, and I've not solved that puzzle. There are some who say that, ultimately, all evil will be reconciled with divinity, and that even those who now practice evil are of divine origin. It would be comforting to know that this were true, but even if it is, it leaves open the question of how and why the demonic originated, and why divinity permits it. It seems that Donald takes the position that evil is intrinsic and irreconcilable - perhaps he knows something that I don't; I'd be interested to hear more from him on this.

[Whatshappening]

That's apprentice kind of thinking. The MB is not in action to forestall suffering, any of that is purely incidental.

I wouldn't buy a house off you in order for you to self-fulfill.
I'd buy it to protect against the elements.

You'd get the money to access the doc with the pile of stethoscopes when you're crook in order to alleviate that suffering.

Look around you, see the four walls and roof. "I wouldn't buy a house off you in order for you to self-fulfill." It's too late Dennis you already have.

People buy houses (ideologies) for all sorts of reasons, the MB doesn't care, the two activities are, effectively, unrelated.

Secondly the MB understands and accepts suffering, knowing it to be part of the process. MB knows every building built drew blood, that's how it goes.

How it goes, is the MB's concern. As a result, knowing suffering to be just a incidental consequence of a working reality. The only way to avoid this is to have no working reality.

The MB can't BE with out it, so it's embraced rather then shunned. This way suffering isn't demotivating, instead it's invigorating.

Invigorating
Gary

P.S. Suffering it seems is "paying the piper", some people pay a lot more then others. Be respectful of that, especially us that have it easy.

[Talking Ass]

One of Blake's most intense and interesting poems.is called The Marriage of Heaven and Hell. Blake, Hegel, Kierkegaard, Dostoyevsky have entered into and struggled with the many layers of existential meaning that arises out of engagement with Divinity. To really come under the force of the issue-problem [of existing] is, at best, what GF had declared for itself as its 'life work'. There is nothing light and nothing easy about this. There is also no clear, defined road through the process of reconciling physical bondage with spiritual freedom. All tools are on the table. All methods are considerable. Radical (Christian) theology seems to point in a similar direction as the.'mystical' poems (or what are.they?!) of Blake. I would abbreviate that and say that whatever 'it' is, it is done in our tangible, present selves, and from this self there is no escape, no side-stepping.

GF forum is more than anything else a branch of radical Christianity, undertaken by radical post-Christians. It is essential to understand this. But there is so much more that is adjunct to this radical Christian project.

I just think it so interesting how Donald places his awareness within this Hell/Heaven domain. Not at all surprising as we are.essentially located, Occidentally, within that struggle and.project. Apparently tbere is no getting away from it

[Dennis Mahar]

A house is built to avoid the suffering of exposure to the elements.
It's called Shelter.
The builder's ego trip is incidental to that and must be suffered as well I suppose.
Causes/conditions.