Aesthetic, Ethical & Religious

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Aesthetic, Ethical & Religious

Postby jupiviv » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:28 pm

David Quinn wrote:Weininger was right. Nietzsche was far too clever for his own good and nowhere near religious enough (i.e. not conscious enough of his own illusoriness).


I think by "religion" Weininger means to have faith in one's own thinking. Nietzsche's took his hatred to its logical conclusion, but he couldn't let go of his hatred. He instead wanted to embrace the opposite of his ascetic, pessimistic worldview - positivism - as a relief from his self hatred.

Kierkegaard is the opposite Nietzsche in this regard. His view of life was fundamentally a positive one. He was a self-loving person, as Weininger would have said. He took love to its logical conclusion, but lacked the strength to let go of it.
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Re: Aesthetic, Ethical & Religious

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:37 am

jupiviv wrote:
David Quinn wrote:Weininger was right. Nietzsche was far too clever for his own good and nowhere near religious enough (i.e. not conscious enough of his own illusoriness).


I think by "religion" Weininger means to have faith in one's own thinking. Nietzsche's took his hatred to its logical conclusion, but he couldn't let go of his hatred. He instead wanted to embrace the opposite of his ascetic, pessimistic worldview - positivism - as a relief from his self hatred.

Kierkegaard is the opposite Nietzsche in this regard. His view of life was fundamentally a positive one. He was a self-loving person, as Weininger would have said. He took love to its logical conclusion, but lacked the strength to let go of it.


Brilliant is the day when all three can let go of. Nietzsche, master of aesthetics, Weininger, chief-surgeon of ethics and Kierkegaard, high priest of the religious. But that needs an even greater insanity, a more thorough suicide and less bound burned up heart.
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Re: Aesthetic, Ethical & Religious

Postby namae nanka » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:36 pm

Man: Women have corrupted women. But I am too pussy to say it.

Woman: NAWALT look at ME!! look at MEE!!

Man: Stereotypes, exceptions, etc.

Woman: We were/are oppressed. Wage-gap, limp-wrists etc.

Man: Oh you so cool.

Woman: Pshaw, you lost your hand, lemme give you another chance...

Man: I no sexist.

Woman: Check!

Man: I have mommy issues!

Woman: Mate!

Man: blah blah blah

Another day, another lowly man defeated.

http://calicantsar.blogspot.in/2009/09/casual-comment-54_17.html
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Re: Aesthetic, Ethical & Religious

Postby mental vagrant » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:46 am

Cory Duchesne wrote:I actually analyze rock music as scientifically as I can, even reading up on endocrinology, trying to see which part of the body the music exploits. To test my theories, I get to know the personalities of the people who like certain kinds of music.

It's definitely a valid folk science. I also keep in mind some other categories, beyond Kiekegaard's trinity, for instance:

A. The Realms of Desire

The realms of desire are characterized by the presence of a strong wish to better one's circumstances - to escape suffering.

- The Hell realms

These can range from occasional hells to hells of constant torment. The suffering of the hells can be experienced for what seems like a thousand lifetimes. Time drags on without end.

In this state of existence all thought has to be directed towards mere survival; there is no striving for perfection. Serious intellectual thought is impractical for one in such poor mental condition. You cannot speak to a person about lofty ideals while their head is on fire; they are too busy frantically seeking a bucket of water.

- The Preta realms

"Pretas" tend to feel empty, insubstantial, ignored, and barely alive. No matter what beauty surrounds them, they see only ugliness. No matter what gains they may make, satisfaction eludes. For this reason they are known as "Craving ghosts". As in the hell realms, there is no arduous striving for ideals, only a wretched scratching for survival.

- The Animal realms

Those who are termed "animals" do not suffer greatly, for they do not use their brains enough to suffer. They are experts in submission and in the creation of authorities which they proudly worship. They are like sheep, content to follow, and to be led, rather than to think and take control of their own lives. They are beasts of burden, ruled by the whip of duty and guilt. Or they are like cows contentedly grazing in a field, unaware that the cold steel of the abattoir awaits them. Again, there is some desire, but no burning passion for truth and perfection.

- The Human Realms

A "human birth" is exceedingly rare, numbering perhaps only one in every several thousand people. Such a mind has learned to value reason in earnest, and can therefore be reasoned with! This human mind has room for doubt, and for the knowledge that something new is possible, which is the ground for learning. Humans possess ideals and their accompanying passions, which is in sharp contrast to the passionless, content and unchanging animal people.

Reason dilutes pain, so the suffering of humans is not crushing, and therefore does not keep them from deep and penetrating thought. Reason also dilutes joy, preventing the blissful happiness which would make one content with pleasing illusions.


I'd like people to at least be conscious of why they listen to the music they listen to. Doing things, even aesthetically, for reasons is crucial to my philosophy. Nietzsche had a good aphorism: "evil men have no songs. How is it then that the Russian's have songs?".

He may be trying to get across many points, but one of them is that music is not necessarily good, nor does it lead people to the good. It just as easily, as you say, sends people banal.

The most prominent rock musician I've found who writes music with the conscious intent to be philosophical would be John Frusciante. I believe his entire personality and approach is a single species of Apollonian musician, and is perhaps North Americas first Apollonian musician (consciously willing a non-dual philosophy through music), although I doubt he values traditional philosophy enough to even to bother with the Dionysian and Apollonian distinctions, and this is why the best is yet to come.

But if I have things my way, there will eventually be a large diversity of Apollonian musicians, all unique species, which exploit different parts of the human soul, all acting as an attractor, inspiring humanity into non-dual interests. You would have to put the music down and do some cold logic for some years, as the music is just there to get you off the more crude pleasures the world offers.

I'll give you an example of a well written song. It might sound like nothing to most of you, because you must develop the neural connections to appreciate it, and this requires repetition:

Going Inside | John Frusciante

None of his music is angry, and he gets a very clean, pure form of despair or elevation, that makes for very listenable music. By listenable, I mean, it's just hard to get sick of. It's almost like water, very pure, almost nothing.

Great accomplishment seems
imperfect,
Yet it does not outlive its usefulness.
Great fullness seems empty,
Yet cannot be exhausted.
Great straightness seems twisted.
Great intelligence seems stupid.
Great eloquence seems awkward.
Movement overcomes cold.
Stillness overcomes heat.
Stillness and tranquility set things in
order in the universe.


Listen to some ZOAR, and Schnittke. I think they will really resonate with you.
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Re: Aesthetic, Ethical & Religious

Postby Cory Duchesne » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:42 pm

thanks for the recommendation, Jim, I'll check them out right now.
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