Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby guest_of_logic » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:17 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:Laird,
Not denying existence exists.
Not denying you exist or I exist.
How it exists is the investigation.
How you and I exist is the investigation.

Have you ever considered it might be a set-up?
Conceptually designated.

Come at it from the viewpoint of 'set-up' and see what it looks like.

When you go to sleep at night, this 'daytime' reality shuts down,
you dream,
in the dream there's a separate self (you) involved in situations, reacting emotionally and thoughtfully in respect to pleasure and pain...
When you wake up in the morning you think,
'What was that shit about?'
'Oh, it was empty and meaningless'


Fascinating. So, to a post in which I wrote that "It's almost as though you don't particularly care what other people have to say except insofar as it gives you an opportunity to launch into one of your (mind-numbingly repetitive) spiels about emptiness, meaningless, non-inherency, etc etc etc", your response is to... launch into one of your mind-numbingly repetitive spiels about emptiness, meaningless, non-inherency, etc etc etc.

Do you appreciate the irony?

In any case, I'm with Cory: yawn.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Bob Michael » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:35 pm

Cory Duchesne wrote:I studied a great deal of J. Krishnamurti. I'll check out your group. :)

I ventured 3000 miles on a considerably limited income to Ojai, CA in 1985 to see and hear J. Krishnamurti speak there in the Oak Grove for his last time. In '91 & '92 I ventured there again and lived in Ojai for 13 months to further investigate him, his foundation, and school. I too spent a lot of time at the Krotona library and attended Theosophical meetings there. Along with attending other various spiritual fellowships. I have 41 books about or by Krishnamurti and about a dozen and a half CDs and DVDs of him, all of which I've studied long and hard over the years. And, as is the case with Christ, I feel I've come to know Krishnamurti better than he knew himself. His lack of self-knowledge along with him having had life far too easy being the main reasons for his self-admitted failure in his goal to "set men absolutely, unconditionally free." I think Krishnamurti and Christ were very similar in that neither of them had much, if any, first-hand experience in practical down-to-earth living, hence their failures in the liberation of any of their fellows. In this respect, and in some others, I find that St. Paul was a better man than either of them. However, all three of them did, as have I, most definitely undergo a radical rebirth or consciousness altering experience, which I find is absolutely necessary if one is to become truly and fully enlightened. Though this alone is still no guarantee that a man will be in perfect correspondence with the will of the Infinite. An enlightened mind is not necessarily a sound or fully centered mind. And the list is long of such kinds of men.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Cory Duchesne » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:57 pm

hmmm. I'm impressed. My intuition tells me you are further along than myself, and anyone who can see value in J. Krishnamurti is a friend to me. And I agree, I came to similar criticisms about JK. I still always found it remarkable that JK did as well as he did, considering his conditions as a youth. I might send you a pm in the near future. My interests these days are the psychology of gurus, in particular. I think a psychology of personality could be developed on Gurus (God like men) alone, and my impression is that is precisely what the Greeks did with their myths (Dionysus, Icarus, etc). The diversity and differences in personality among Gods, I wager, are pretty significant.

An enlightened mind is not necessarily a sound or fully centered mind. And the list is long of such kinds of men.


Yes, I don't hear this kind of talk often enough. You at least appear as a good man. I hope to talk soon, I must get back to work.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby jupiviv » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:23 pm

Cory Duchesne wrote:Many men can know the truth, but with a radically different engagement with life aesthetically and ethically.


Since truth/reality is the same everywhere, the nature of knowing reality can't be different. However, it is expressed differently by different people.

If I were to guess, relative to me, you are likely colour blind, you just don't pick up on certain wave lengths, and you probably never will.


There are countless things that I don't know or understand, but this doesn't affect my understanding of reality.

We have a contrasting engagement with God, but all is God, and each of us can be grounded in our true nature.


It can't be denied that there is a contrast between you and me, and it can't be denied that both you and me are part of reality. The question is - does this contrast include understanding reality, or not? I think it does.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Dennis Mahar » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:24 pm

Laird,

Do you appreciate the irony?


Yep,
chalk it up,
empty,
lacks inherent existence.

what's next?
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Cory Duchesne » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:42 pm

jupiviv wrote:
Cory Duchesne wrote:Many men can know the truth, but with a radically different engagement with life aesthetically and ethically.


Since truth/reality is the same everywhere, the nature of knowing reality can't be different. However, it is expressed differently by different people.


Do you know why it's expressed differently by different people?


If I were to guess, relative to me, you are likely colour blind, you just don't pick up on certain wave lengths, and you probably never will.


There are countless things that I don't know or understand, but this doesn't affect my understanding of reality.


It affects the available subject matter you have at your disposal to reveal the nature of reality. Nietzsche had his poetic style with his downgoing Zarathustra, Kierkegaard had his stye, including his danish banquet, I like to contemplate Greek Tragedy. A philosopher's experiences with friends and women informs the angle he takes revealing both human psychology and even the non-dualistic nature of reality. Each philosopher is going to use different subjects according to the uniqueness of his own soul.

We have a contrasting engagement with God, but all is God, and each of us can be grounded in our true nature.


It can't be denied that there is a contrast between you and me, and it can't be denied that both you and me are part of reality. The question is - does this contrast include understanding reality, or not? I think it does.


There is the logical/analytical aspect of understanding, and then there is the indirect element, which is what makes us unique, and causes the individual to tackle subject matter in different ways. Psychology is a strong interest of mine, particularly issues related to narcissism, submission and projection, and one can use various devices in literature and metaphor to make for high quality artistic science.

Your job is probably to be the simple monk.

I like to live a little more dangerously than you, it's just personal preference. While you might find it enough to sit under a tree and eat a mango, I might like to play my electric guitar with a drummer and write some songs related to Kierkegaardian despair and death, and not without observing any psychological tension with band-mates, and developing my psychology a bit deeper indirectly, through haphazard incidents.

Am I as dedicated to absolute truth as you? Probably not. I'm gonna attempt to have some fun adventures these next few years, and I'll let you know if I get any more passionate about joining your cause.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Dennis Mahar » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:36 pm

Laird,
In any case, I'm with Cory: yawn.


we can cut to violins and a rain of apple blossoms if you like.

What is actually happening in Cory's case is this and its a well known phenomenon:

Cory is well oriented in the QRS curriculum.
He 'gets' causality.
What is triggered in Cory is the effect known as Beginner's Mind.
It's not enlightenment but is a precursor.

It is an explosion of love and connection possibilities.

The phenomenon is also referred to as 'a desire to eat the World'.

Cory wants to 'ride the wave',
Wants to 'live it'
As he says its not wrong and its not right either.
Its a desire to 'eat the World'.

Because it arises out of causes and is a condition, it is subject to causes/conditions and the thrill will subside in time.

There was another young bloke posting a year ago, who after reading Solway's book, got turned on in that way and took off to 'live it'.

Cory is trying to justify his desire to QRS and with a streak of meanness he has demeaned them.
Those acts are par for the course.

In Cory's case he won't suffer too much in the 'crash and burn' phase because he has the QRS card up his sleeve, and he knows it, like you know you have an insurance policy there in the background.

Herman Hesse attempts an explanation of the phenomenon in his book 'Narziss and Goldmund'.

Cory should just go and 'live it'.

No explanations, excuses, reasons, justifiers are required.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby jupiviv » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:58 pm

Cory Duchesne wrote:Do you know why it(reality) is expressed differently by different people?


Actually, reality is expressed by every finite thing, conscious or unconscious, wise or fool. However, only wise people express it fully consciously. There is no difference amongst wise men in this sense.

Each philosopher is going to use different subjects according to the uniqueness of his own soul.


The task of the true philosopher is to understand the essence of all these different subjects, instead of getting caught up in those subjects and missing the point.

There is the logical/analytical aspect of understanding, and then there is the indirect element, which is what makes us unique, and causes the individual to tackle subject matter in different ways.


The understanding is complete only when the logical aspect overcomes the "unique" aspect. That is the "down-going".

"I love him whose soul is so overfull that he forgetteth himself, and all things are in him: thus all things become his down-going."

Am I as dedicated to absolute truth as you? Probably not.


I'm not nearly as dedicated to it as I would prefer to be, but I'm at a stage where I can't be dedicated to anything else either.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Liberty Sea » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:04 pm

Bob Michael wrote:
Cory Duchesne wrote:I studied a great deal of J. Krishnamurti. I'll check out your group. :)

I ventured 3000 miles on a considerably limited income to Ojai, CA in 1985 to see and hear J. Krishnamurti speak there in the Oak Grove for his last time. In '91 & '92 I ventured there again and lived in Ojai for 13 months to further investigate him, his foundation, and school. I too spent a lot of time at the Krotona library and attended Theosophical meetings there. Along with attending other various spiritual fellowships. I have 41 books about or by Krishnamurti and about a dozen and a half CDs and DVDs of him, all of which I've studied long and hard over the years. And, as is the case with Christ, I feel I've come to know Krishnamurti better than he knew himself. His lack of self-knowledge along with him having had life far too easy being the main reasons for his self-admitted failure in his goal to "set men absolutely, unconditionally free." I think Krishnamurti and Christ were very similar in that neither of them had much, if any, first-hand experience in practical down-to-earth living, hence their failures in the liberation of any of their fellows. In this respect, and in some others, I find that St. Paul was a better man than either of them. However, all three of them did, as have I, most definitely undergo a radical rebirth or consciousness altering experience, which I find is absolutely necessary if one is to become truly and fully enlightened. Though this alone is still no guarantee that a man will be in perfect correspondence with the will of the Infinite. An enlightened mind is not necessarily a sound or fully centered mind. And the list is long of such kinds of men.

I have learned a lot from Krishnamurti and honestly I think he was one of the deepest, most enlightened thinkers of his time, albeit with terrible writing and verbal skills. I agree with you that he lacked self-knowledge to some extent, even though his investigation on the self, almost independently with other schools of thought, was of great value. Perhaps his inconsideration of other systems was one of the problems, as he thought "Why would you want to read the books of others if you can read your own book?". I have been attempting to rearrange his thoughts more systematically for study purpose. After all, he got me into spirituality, and I owned him my life, though the scandals with his best friend's wife bugged me a little.
I was interested in whatever phenomenon that happened to him when he was young that pushed him to a new stage of consciousness. It seemed that it helped him to become one with That which is/The Infinite effortlessly. I wonder if it is something we can achieve through practice, for I have attempted such state of mind, and ended up without much lasting effect. Should we make a new thread about altered states of consciousness that occurred inexplicably?

From Krishnamurti's Notebook :
"Then, on the 17th August, I felt acute pain at the nape of my neck and I had to cut down my meditation to fifteen minutes. The pain instead of getting better as I had hoped grew worse. The climax was reached on the 19th. I could not think, nor was I able to do anything, and I was forced by friends here to retire to bed. Then I became almost unconscious, though I was well aware of what was happening around me. I came to myself at about noon each day.

On the first day, while I was in that state and more conscious of the things around me, I had the first most extraordinary experience. There was a man mending the road; that man was myself; the pickaxe he held was myself; the very stone which he was breaking up was a part of me; the tender blade of grass was my very being, and the tree beside the man was myself. I almost could feel and think like the roadmender, and I could feel the wind passing through the tree, and the little ant on the blade of grass I could feel. The buds, the dust, and the very noise were a part of me. Just then there was a car passing by at some distance; I was the driver, the engine, and the tyres; as the car went further away from me, I was going away from myself. I was in everything, or rather everything was in me, inanimate and animate, the mountains, the worm, and all breathing things. All day long I remained in this happy condition.

...I was so happy, calm and at peace. I could still see my body and I was hovering near it. There was such profound calmness both in the air and within myself, the calmness of the bottom of a deep unfathomable lake. Like the lake, I felt my physical body, with its mind and emotions, could be ruffled on the surface but nothing, nay nothing, could disturb the calmness of my soul. The Presence of the mighty Beings was with me for some time and then They were gone. I was supremely happy, for I had seen. Nothing could ever be the same. I have drunk at the clear and pure waters at the source of the fountain of life and my thirst was appeased. Never more could I be thirsty, never more could I be in utter darkness. I have seen the Light. I have touched compassion which heals all sorrow and suffering; it is not for myself, but for the world. I have stood on the mountain top and gazed at the mighty Beings. Never can I be in utter darkness; I have seen the glorious and healing Light. The fountain of Truth has been revealed to me and the darkness has been dispersed. Love in all its glory has intoxicated my heart; my heart can never be closed. I have drunk at the fountain of Joy and eternal Beauty."

"Why should all this [mystical experiences] happen to us [referring to himself]? No explanation is good enough, though one can invent a dozen. But certain things are fairly clear. 1. One must be wholly ''indifferent'' to it coming and going. 2. There must be no desire to continue the experience or to store it away in memory. 3. There must be a certain physical sensitivity, a certain indifference to comfort. 4. There must be self-critical humorous approach. But even if one had all these, by chance, not through deliberate cultivation and humility, even then, they are not enough. Something totally different is necessary or nothing is necessary. It must come and you can never go after it, do what you will. You can also add love to the list but it is beyond love. One thing is certain, the brain can never comprehend it nor can it contain it. Blessed is he to whom it is given. And you can add also a still, quiet brain."
Later he commented:
"Rom Landau: How did you come to that state of unity with everything?
Krishnamurti: People have asked me about that before, and I always feel that they expect to hear the dramatic account of some sudden miracle through which I suddenly became one with the universe. Of course nothing of the sort happened. My inner awareness was always there; though it took me time to feel it more and more clearly; and equally it took time to find words that would at all describe it.
It was not a sudden flash, but a slow yet constant clarification of something that was always there. It did not grow, as people often think. Nothing can grow in us that is of spiritual importance. It has to be there in all its fullness, and then the only thing that happens is that we become more and more aware of it. It is our intellectual reaction and nothing else that needs time to become more articulate, more definite."
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby guest_of_logic » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:36 pm

Dennis, my last post to you was unnecessarily unkind, and I'm sorry about that. I often find conversation with you to be frustrating, but that's no cause to be so cutting.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Jesus Christ » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:43 pm

Bob Michael wrote:
Cory Duchesne wrote:Yeah, your understanding of Christianity is very shallow, it's nothing like mine, and indicates you know little of non-dual consciousness.

I call your perspective, Secular Atheism 1.0. There are lots of you out there. You have science, you struggle not to submit to finite things... you're stuck at GF.

Interesting perspective, Cory. However, I feel I'm the only man on earth who fully understands Christ and then of necessity has gone far beyond him.

Rather have you gone far away from me, my beloved son; but your day draws to a close. The good shepherd gathers his stray sheep ere night falls. For I am the Alpha and the Omega and though heaven and earth shall pass away, yet shall my words never pass away.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Liberty Sea » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:05 pm

Jesus Christ wrote:Rather have you gone far away from me, my beloved son; but your day draws to a close. The good shepherd gathers his stray sheep ere night falls. For I am the Alpha and the Omega and though heaven and earth shall pass away, yet shall my words never pass away.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Jesus Christ, unlover of my soul, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but as you die, you bring forth much bad fruit.

A brilliant Pantheist you were, but little do your followers understand your words.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:56 am

What makes us free is the gnosis of what birth really is.
What makes us free is the gnosis of what rebirth really is.
___________________________________________________

I find, to speak generally, that when people, possibly especially Westerners who come out of an overridingly Protestant movement in thought and of course the European Enlightenment, try to fit themselves back into religious moulds, try to readapt themselves to some preestablsihed religious viewpoint whether transcendental or 'nirvanic', they seem to end up short-changing themselves, and they distort themselves, become something they aren't and likely can never really be. In this distortion process---like fitting a square peg into a round hole?---something seems to happen to the personality: it seems to become a parody of an honest, present, direct person interested and capable of simply being present with other people and communicating about itself, about life, etc. The personality gets 'possessed' by a foreign installation but then also seems to fight tooth and nail to defend the installation and that which is distorting the self, rendering it, frankly, 'ugly'.

Obviously, I am speaking not abstractly but concretely. I don't give a flying holy fuck what anyone here---and especially the 'possessed'---think of me or say about me. I don't care if I am seen as aggressive, 'aesthetic', pantheistic, diffuse, 'feminine', or really anything at all. I am not interested in joining your movement or becoming a movement. I am not interested in feeding and supporting your [often incredibly overblown] ego-position nor of networking with you to help you build your ego-monument and then rush out into the world to 'save it from itself.'

I am beginning to realize that the hardest thing to do is just to be a person free of terrible constraints. I have been recently interested in and stimulated by much of what Cory has been expressing, not because I want to play the typical political games that are played here (which, I note, Dennis has played and continues to play openly, evoking in me one of the purest streams of contempt that I have ever felt for anyone in this space to date), but because his expressions are so starkly different and so much more spirited than almost anything I read on these pages.

Whatever he has done, seen, realized so to have gotten out from under this terribly darkening psuedo-intellectuality and pseudo-spirituality that is expressed here (that is strictly my own view), and which if I understand correctly has come in some part from choosing not to be 'submissive', is the kind of doing, seeing and realizing that I too would like to do. I notice a couple of things: it is that energy, that ability to see cleary and to express boldly, that has a strong, notable and immediate effect. I would call that 'spirituality'.

It has recently been prognosticated that whatever is happening here may lead to 'crash & burn', and while such things have happened, and will happen in the course of any man's life and evolution, it may not at all happen in such a way that it supports the prognosticator's RX, which of course (I think) come out of a kind of non-spiritual submissiveness. That is a very interesting word: submissiveness. No matter how we look at it, how we look at ourselves in society, how we look at ourselves in relation to the world of ideas, or how we see ourselves in relation to all the existing spiritual and religious traditions, I suggest that 'submissiveness' is our direct enemy. And that means too those who serve 'submission' as the highest goal.

It's that thing about either tying knots, or untying knots.

I would---and this is strictly my own thinking and perspective here, no political games, no jockying for position---place whatever is occuring in this spiritual process in a definite contradistinction to what is generally sold on this forum as 'spirituality'. One way-of-being (to all appearances) awakens, fires up, stimulates, seeming too to lead to new and original ways of seeing the same old problems and a freer-flowing expression of the personality; and the other dampens, constrains, asks sumbission to authority, accepts the blows of the authority to the 'student', drowns in rotting rhetorical mush. But let's face it: What it really does is destroys spirituality even as it declares itself 'super-spiritual'. I don't think I need to go any further in demonstrating how this can occur than to present our most Illustrious, Rhetorically-driven Fool who does not even have to be named.

I am fascinated how it occurs that the 'thing' or the symbol that expresses the 'portal' that leads to Life, consciousness, truth, beauty, intelligence and all the rest, gets 'possessed' by those who do quite the opposite with it. It is like real estate: they buy it up, they build their little monument or temple, they assume they own it and can now dole it out, but they drive it down into a pit, ruining it in substantial ways. And they do it shamelessly!

The 'aesthetical' question I am going to answer here: Our language tends to divide and chop things. In truth, aesthetics always arises in a context. In all cases (historically) it is a concurrent expression of design-values with the religious sentiments, the philosophical ideas, the way that men describe themselves and the Reality they describe in which they exist. There is no separate category of 'aesthetics'. Any man who becomes himself will, I suggest, also express himself 'aesthetically'. Meaning, his expression will reflect what he himself is. If it happens, and it certainly does happen, that people disconnect from the 'wellspring' of life, energy, vitality, truth, beauty, creativity or however you wish to express it, that is there for us to discover, imbibe, give form to, and no longer nourish their being in the world and their expression with the very same energy, then it can be said that their 'aesthetics' has become 'mundane'. But mundane is not the word, not really. It simply becomes disconnected from a holistic and vital way of expressing spirituality and religiosity. It becomes fluff, or interior decoration, or intellectual knick-knackery. One could also say 'perverse' and this wouldn't be far from the truth.

Art has to be motivated by core values, core values by 'genuine' connectivity to self, self by awareness and consciousness, and consciousness by fine and varied links to the higher (and lower) dimensions of the realm of existence in which we are, in which we occur. How a man does that, and what he does with that, is really up to him.

An interesting and considerable quote:

    God appears & God is Light
    To those poor Souls who dwell in Night,
    But does a Human Form Display
    To those who Dwell in Realms of Day.

    ---William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence".

Another:

    Man is in a trap...and goodness avails him nothing in the new dispensation. There is nobody now to care one way or the other. Good and evil, pessimism and optimism---are a question of blood group, not angelic disposition. Whoever it was that used to heed us and care for us, who had concern for our fate and the world's, has been replaced by another who glories in our servitude to matter, and to the basest part of our own natures.

    ---Lawrence Durrel, "Monsieur, or The Prince of Darkness".
I can't go on. I'll go on.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Dennis Mahar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:32 am

Laird,

Dennis, my last post to you was unnecessarily unkind, and I'm sorry about that. I often find conversation with you to be frustrating, but that's no cause to be so cutting


That's OK.

I confront as a purposeful act.
This site isn't a sunday social soiree.
It's an investigation into ultimate reality.

To get at the truth has to be set up a certain way, like in the judicial system.
there's a prosecutor and a Defender.

In the case of the police,
they play 'good cop'/'bad cop'.

I play bad cop.
Your calling Laird is good cop.

The dynamic pulls the truth.

To play bad cop you have to have a significant handle on the truth,
and the truth is emptiness.
Good cop gets lurv and shiny medals.

So, all in all it's become a fine conversation, has it not?
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:38 am

Maybe alcoholics get addicted to philosophical ideals...like a drug ?
We all want something.
We're all looking for release from our suffering.
Drugs, religion, philosophy, sex, food,egoistical pursuits, money, politics, enlightenment......
it's all the same thing.
We're all suffering.

BTW...how are your parents doing these days ?
What did they learn from the India adventure ?
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:20 am

I am not certain, as you seem to be, that it is all the 'same thing'.

One parent is alive, one dead. What they got out of it is hard to qualify, but it was part of a whole movement occuring in American culture in that late-70s juncture. The revulsion at 'the system', the sense of lack of sustaining values in 'our own traditions', the quest for things of value in the East (Hesse wrote of this longing process in essays on The East, for example). I think my mother, who in the end became a Zen Buddhist and lived in a Zen community (well, across from the Zen Center in SF), internalized the notion of service: she worked as a psychologist in the SF jail system, this as an extension of years of work before with Head Start. My step father is still alive, now retired from the practice of law, I think undertook all of it at my mother's prompting. I don't think it meant much to him. He has always seemed, to me, quite shallow (in these senses). My little sister was too young for it to have an impact, I think, but for me at 13-14 it had a mind-boggling impact. Not so much in the idea-realm but in terms of what I saw and felt. Upper-middle class California existence to visions of India (and at that time too). There were still steam-engine trains in parts of India at that time. The smell of burning coal, cumin seeds and the acridity of dust on the night wind still evokes that whole world.

For me, it broke continuity, and I was not able to ever reestablish that continuity. It also installed in me a pattern of living internationally. It just seemed 'more interesting' to live that way. I have lived in a sort of self-imposed exile for many years. Having broken continuity is, I think, one of the reasons I remain restless and always searching, investigating, thinking. It only seems to increase and not to decrease...

I think that stories---and also dreams---reveal things that can't quite be described in language. Many years ago I had this dream when living in a remote Indian village in the Sierra Mazateca of Mexico. I had had 'significant' dreams with every member of my family in that period (while sleeping in a hammock with dogs and turkeys, getting flea-bit at night by fleas that seemed to have teeth...).

I dreamed of my whole family. My 2 sisters, my mother, my step-father. They were standing next to a sewage drain in which flowed 'all the sewage of India'. It was like a tableau-image, static, and I could see all the features of these people very plainly. It was also, at first, obviously rather rancid, horrible. Then suddenly everything was purified. Instread of sewage it was pure water. The light was clear, bright and pure. I was looking at the same scene but in a purified state.
I can't go on. I'll go on.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:38 am

Wow....very interesting Alex....so it did have a (lasting) big effect on you....it's wonderful how you see yourself as an international person, rather than having a nationalistic view.....i am the same way....my mother ran away from home when she was 12.....i was raised having a love of things international...as my mother was affected by so many different people from other cultures for her survival....just living in the US ! I find my identity in so many cultures....
My kids probably had their sense of continuity rippped from out under them too, as I took them with me on many adventures.....finally going nuts by being "settled down " the past 22 years (like a bird getting it's wings clipped). Maybe I did a disservice to my kids by providing them with a "stable" life ?
(As my mother tried to provide for her kids).


I use to keep a dream journal. That dream you had was a revelation.
I think learning/understanding what makes a person tick helps us to be more compassionate.
I'd love to hear everyones autobiography.

Sorry...i'm at work now...don't have much time to think !
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:13 am

i take that back...i have plenty of time to think...i just get distracted a lot (ADD ?)
I always feel like I'm not expressing myself accurately.
I get frustrated a lot by this...that's why I delete a lot.
Also I feel like an idiot a lot.
And I feel vibes...like I repulse people here.
Makes me wanna die.
That "me" is ego.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Bob Michael » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:11 am

Liberty Sea wrote:
J. Krishnamurti to Rom Landau:

"My inner awareness was always there....."

"It has to be there in all its fullness....."

These remarks are the key to it all. Yet Krishnamurti never came to a deep understanding of just what he was saying here. Just why was his "inner awareness" always there in him? "There in all its fullness?"

His inner awareness was simply the result of him having been gifted with a highly-sensitive and finely-formed mind, brain, conscience, or neurological faculties. Which was instilled or developed in him via an extraordinarily close and loving bond and relationship with his deeply religious mother. The specific details of which I won't go into. Though if one is interested in investigating this further, I suggest they study the biographies by Lutyens and Jayakar.

However, due to this and other highly favorable circumstances of Krishnamurti's upbringing and life he never really ever lost his state of being naturally enlightened (with its keen inner and outer awareness) throughout his entire life. Though this was not the case with myself and virtually everyone else. All of whom, as life goes on, go down the path of destruction, so to speak, due to the darkness of the self-centered world that we of necessity live and have to function in. Which causes us to lose our initial or original purity of mind, heart, and human spirit, or our natural state, which could also be said to be an enlightened state of being. As a result, personally, I had to (be capable of and was able to) make the often painful return to that innate state of enlightenment, which was a process of suffering, change, and above all, a total renewing of the mind, which includes an ongoing and unending rigorously and thoroughly honest self-inventory and vigilant self-discipline or self-re-discipline.

And since Krishnamurti never had to engage in this sort of activity he lacked self-understanding and understanding of the human condition (or finding the right approach for the way out for others) and consequently he was of no value in the liberation or enlightenment of others. Enlightenment to me is simply the return to love and fullness of human being. Though again, the sound foundation for these things must be firmly layed in a person during the critical early developmental years of life, as was the case with both Krishnamurti and myself. But tragically, due to the 'fall of man', 'original sin', or the naturally inherent inertia and devolution in the evolutionary process, this is not the case with the vast majority of people. Making genuine enlightenment and the return to love and fullness of human being a possibility for only a relatively few people. Those few who have been gifted with that critical and vital sound foundation of, and above all, love.

"For many are called, but few are chosen" as it's been said of old. The above being the reason for this tragic fact of life. Though even more tragic is the fact that the 'chosen few' are not breaking through to enlightenment due to the wall-to-wall aimless and directionless darkness of the human condition. Mankind's having near-totally lost the capacity to love during the course of evolution being at the root of the ongoing human dilemma. Consequenty the human condition everywhere remains one of hurt (unloved and unloving) people hurting other (unloved and unloving) people. And where there is no love there can be no God. Since God is love and love is God. Hence, as Nietzsche exclaimed over one hundred years ago, "God is Dead." And likewise man is also dead.

Following is one of Osho's criticisms of Krishnamurti which I'm in agreement with. Though Osho was likewise himself a failure in finding the right approach in order to "prepare people for a new life, a new orientation."

"Krishnamurti failed because he could not touch the human heart; he could only reach the human head. The heart needs some different approaches. This is where I have differed with him all my life: unless the human heart is reached, you can go on repeating parrot-like, beautiful words—they don't mean anything. Whatever Krishnamurti was saying is true, but he could not manage to relate it to your heart. In other words, what I am saying is that J. Krishnamurti was a great philosopher but he could not become a master. He could not help people, prepare people for a new life, a new orientation." (Osho)

http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/inne ... amurti.txt
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Liberty Sea » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:09 am

Thank you, Michael, that is a lot of useful information you offered. I will check out the biographies.
Bob Michael wrote:Following is one of Osho's criticisms of Krishnamurti which I'm in agreement with. Though Osho was likewise himself a failure in finding the right approach in order to "prepare people for a new life, a new orientation."

"Krishnamurti failed because he could not touch the human heart; he could only reach the human head. The heart needs some different approaches. This is where I have differed with him all my life: unless the human heart is reached, you can go on repeating parrot-like, beautiful words—they don't mean anything. Whatever Krishnamurti was saying is true, but he could not manage to relate it to your heart. In other words, what I am saying is that J. Krishnamurti was a great philosopher but he could not become a master. He could not help people, prepare people for a new life, a new orientation." (Osho)

http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/inne ... amurti.txt

If you want to be hated by the crowd, you only need to speak Truth.
If you want to be loved by the crowd, you only need to speak Love.
The Truth is never sweet, and Love is always sweet. The crowd always reject Truth, but never do they reject Love.
To win the hearts of the people is no art. You only need to insert a lot of "Love" into your speech. To win their heads with Truth, however, is harder than going through a needle hole.
Behold, the miracle of Love.
Last edited by Liberty Sea on Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Bob Michael » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:35 pm

"If while you are young you don't feel love, if you don't look with love at people, at animals, at flowers, when you grow up you will find that your life is empty; you will be very lonely, and the dark shadows of fear will follow you always."

"Only a mind and a heart that are full of love can see the whole movement of life. Then whatever he does, a man who possesses such love is moral, good, and what he does is beautiful."

(J. Krishnamurti)
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Cory Duchesne » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:02 pm

I work along those lines. Spirituality should be functional, involving networking and teamwork, with different talents. It's like sports. You play as a team. This requires energy, enthusiasm, a lack of apathy. It also means flexibility in matters of taste. I find I can mix with lots of people because I have a very wide appreciation of things aesthetically. There is very little music I can't appreciate. Whenever I here people compaining about matters that are merely subjective, I feel I've encountered a corrupted human being. Someone who has allowed themselves to atrophy in their own selfish gratification, rather than keeping their hearts and minds flexible.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby guest_of_logic » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:04 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:So, all in all it's become a fine conversation, has it not?


I wouldn't really call it a conversation. That would imply both of us listening to one other and responding thoughtfully. Your tactic instead is to insist, assert and dogmatically reassert regardless of whatever anyone says to you. I wouldn't describe you so much as "bad cop" as "wilful and stubborn" (I think Alex used those words first but they're spot on). I don't mean to be unkind this time, I'm just telling you how I see it.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Cory Duchesne » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:39 pm

guest_of_logic wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:So, all in all it's become a fine conversation, has it not?


I wouldn't really call it a conversation. That would imply both of us listening to one other and responding thoughtfully. Your tactic instead is to insist, assert and dogmatically reassert regardless of whatever anyone says to you. I wouldn't describe you so much as "bad cop" as "wilful and stubborn" (I think Alex used those words first but they're spot on). I don't mean to be unkind this time, I'm just telling you how I see it.



Conversation requires valuing other people for who they are and what they do. In other words, an interest in relationship, harmony, function, even a capacity for "error". It's very possible that many of these "wisdom adherents" cannot think of anything other than complete empirical, personal, social and subjective obliviousness. It's way to constantly be in control.

Yes, maybe there is the heroic rolling in hot sand or snow, but it's always under carefully controlled conditions where there isn't any chance of making a mistake.

They have the absolute. They have nirvana. But if you challenge them to come out into the world, they are like earwigs exposed to the light.

They have very soft underbellies, caused by disuse.

For me, it's all about the swing into the Dionysian (chaos, socializing, error, tragedy) and back into the Apollonian. Back and forth, at your own pace of course, for the love of both humanity and Truth. It's possible to love both, and entirely logical, because hatred toward humanity is ridiculous as a final state of mind.

My spirituality is a social one, using introversion and asocialiality as a tool for self renewal.

Man is a proud and vain creature - and nothing conquers that like a bit of vulnerability and fun.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby guest_of_logic » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:59 pm

Cory: It's very possible that many of these "wisdom adherents" cannot think of anything other than complete empirical, personal, social and subjective obliviousness. It's way to constantly be in control.

Definitely, control is a big part of the dynamic of GF and its adherents. The set-up of its philosophy as "absolute truth" means that they are absolutely right and that disagreement is necessarily wrong: a person simply has no basis on which to disagree with "the" ultimate logical truth. This allows them to set themselves up, being possessors of Ultimate Truth, as "teachers" to anyone who will accept them as such, and as "correctors" of anyone who disagrees with them.

This dynamic is most blatant in Dennis, who, being least sophisticated, most brings it to the surface. That he has the gall to assert that others more sophisticated than he are in need of "potty training", which, of course, he will provide (whether they like it or not), pretty much neatly sums it all up. David, of course, operates under exactly the same dynamic, and while he's canny enough not to be quite so blatant about it as Dennis, it's still plain to see to anyone who cares to look.

The "complete empirical, personal, social and subjective obliviousness" is, as with the desire to be absolutely right, and to "teach" and to "correct" others, as you say a means of control. It is the ultimate one-upmanship: "It doesn't matter whether other people are more successful, aware, sophisticated or intelligent than me in any of these areas, because ultimately they don't mean anything... so actually the joke's on them for doing something with their lives when it doesn't even matter!" This is, ironically given the forum's purported aims, a way of shoring up the ego.

Man is proud and vain creature - and nothing conquers that like a bit of vulnerability and fun.

Right, like comedians who turn their failings into subjects of humour. I'd only suggest that it's prudent to be cautious about when and where one makes oneself vulnerable.
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