Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Pam Seeback
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Pam Seeback »

Bob: Whereby we destroy their young and tender human spirits, and tragically in most cases for good.
I was fortunate to have my tender spirit nourished, and as I grew up, I continued to nourish it myself, for I could not imagine any other way to live.

Tenderness is that Spot within where spirit touches soul and says, without words, or with words: all is okay, all of it, the beauty of it, the ugliness of it, all of it is meant to be, as is all of it meant not to be.

Tenderness, yes, is the Best.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I was planting seeds Alex.
You were at best incidental.
Seeds may grow.
Forget it.
We did meet at some points tho'.
Thanks for that.
It's just too hard with resistance present.
'fullness' and not emptiness
emptiness is fullness.
empty means causes/conditions.
sorry I couldn't explain it.
but strengthen and augment self, purify self, give self tools for constructive action in the world. True, it all is wiped away byt the actions of time
House of cards.
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Talking Ass
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Talking Ass »

You are a most extraordinary being! Truly, one of the most irritating presences I have encountered in cyberspace. Remember: for months you 'followed' me around posting your dull and inane 'ideas' (the way you plant your seeds, I take it?) after my posts, seeking to educate me about 'emptiness'. No response, no idea shared, not one sentence nor reams of paragraphs ever got through to you. You have a stock answer for every human concern: it is empty and meaningless. Really, this is what it reduces to for you. This is your one, motivating idea! There are no others. In my last post, in clear, concise and cogent prose I describe why I do not accept 'emptyness' as a doctrine for living life. As you have done, and will do from now until doomsday, you simply disregard it. It does not even register. In the end, your core idea about life, about being, about everything...is that it is a House of Cards. All you need, Dennis, is to copy one or two phrases after every post on this forum. 'It's empty and meaningless' and 'It's a house of cards'. I call this stupidity. Not intelligence, not good discrimination, but sheer stupidity. It is not you who are stupid (you are probably of average intelligence like most everyone) but the ideas that have grabbed you, that dominate and direct you, is very bad use of intelligence. The part about 'planting seeds' is funny, I admit I laughed. Planting seeds to produce mental and spiritual midgets, what an achievement! But even more funny was the part about 'there is too much resistence present', if only because these are my high-camp and ironical means of speaking to you. Could you please be a little more original and come up with your own? ;-)
fiat mihi
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Your ego is flapping about with its vital concerns.
Don't fret.
That's exactly what happens at this stage.
Give the seed at least 6 months.
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Bob Michael
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Bob Michael »

movingalways wrote:We may walk our path differently, Bob, but our goal is the same. Spirit touching spirit...:-)
May the love and the joy of the Lord be in your heart always, M/A. I'd ask you if you'd like to give me a hug for my 71st birthday which is today, but that's one of the many limitations of this sort of communication and why I must flow on and get to my business out in the real world. Enjoy your days!

Bob M.
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Jamesh
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Jamesh »

Utilising the concept of emptiness can be beneficial. Its aim of course is to reduce the potency of our natural propensity to feed our ego, which often leads to the detriment of others. It is just a basic tool to aid a change in the egos structure from one centred around Me Me Me to a broader one encompassing Me, We, All.

Without it then a person’s story progresses somewhat like a scientist studying increasing levels of material detail, they get caught up in the detail and this clouds their potential understanding of the bigger picture.

Like many things in philosophy, an understanding means more than a cognitive understanding, it means a change of mental reaction, a shift in the path of one’s story from an ego geared towards creating a larger self castle, to one without the limitations or restrictions that come from owning and living, as in being attached, to a particular self-house. Without such a restriction they should be able to travel further away from their self domicile and travel more lightly or elegantly within the streams of reality.

The weight of an ego which is attached to everything that affects it in positive or negative ways ends up filling up the person’s cup of life, and results in selfish protection and strengthening of the ego’s learnt reactionary programs.

Emptiness is simply an ideal, not something achievable other than by degree. Even the most enlightened will have an ego self. We all need shelter when the weather is rough, we all have a life journey that must involve emotions and value based decision making, as these things give us a purpose-path to travel along, rather than going off in any direction and going nowhere, so taking the idea of non-self too far is an ego obsession rather than a possibility. Our self-shelter does not have to be an immovable castle, it can be a light tent and sleeping bag we carry with us as we travel to use as needed.

I quite dislike the term emptiness, as it is logically an impossibility. But then so is fullness. Due to its lack of restriction those with the least demanding egos can be full of gracefulness, whereas those with full or tightly bound ego programs, those full of themselves, tend to stumble through life, tripping over the affects of their ego. Like Alex, they may be a graceful dancer within a learnt speciality that their ego has driven them to achieve, but unless particularly blessed by luck both genetically and experience wise (which Alex appears to be), they are apt to be ungainly in other ways.

For myself, when it comes to ego, I talk the talk, not walk the walk. Sadly, I’m certainly no Zen bohemian who has left behind the ego castle. I’m an In-betweener. Looking at what Wiki says about bohemianism makes it very appealing though.

I've written some Psalms and some songs, I've dabbled in most of the arts:
Quixote-like, righted some wrongs in fact, I have played many parts.
I have seen both the bright and the dark of the world and the things that are its,
like the dove that flew forth from the ark: In a word, I am given to flits.
For the life of a rover is mine, A rover by land and by sea:
With a lady to love and a flagon of wine, oh, the world is the village for me!
To-day, as you see, I am here, Enjoying my pipe and my bowl:
To-morrow, and I may appear inscribing my name on the Pole.
The next day may see me once more, content as a hog upon ice,
Far down on the Florida shore, existing on bacon and rice.
I have hobnobbed with peasant and king, with a hundred to run at my call;
I have seen the sweet flowers of spring lose their odor and grace before Fall.
I have loved with the warmth of the boy and adored with the passion of man,
But the altar's it's drop of alloy, so I came back to where I began!


To take the world as one finds it, the bad with the good, making the best of the present moment—to laugh at Fortune alike whether she be generous or unkind—to spend freely when one has money, and to hope gaily when one has none—to fleet the time carelessly, living for love and art—this is the temper and spirit of the modern Bohemian in his outward and visible aspect. It is a light and graceful philosophy, but it is the Gospel of the Moment, this exoteric phase of the Bohemian religion; and if, in some noble natures, it rises to a bold simplicity and naturalness, it may also lend its butterfly precepts to some very pretty vices and lovable faults, for in Bohemia one may find almost every sin save that of Hypocrisy. ...

His faults are more commonly those of self-indulgence, thoughtlessness, vanity and procrastination, and these usually go hand-in-hand with generosity, love and charity; for it is not enough to be one’s self in Bohemia, one must allow others to be themselves, as well. ...

What, then, is it that makes this mystical empire of Bohemia unique, and what is the charm of its mental fairyland? It is this: there are no roads in all Bohemia! One must choose and find one’s own path, be one’s own self, live one’s own life.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

That was a load of rubbish Jamesh.

Ego is a designation one has for oneself. A story one has of oneself.
A belief.
It's out of causes/conditions. That's what empty means. Lacks inherent existence.
It doesn't mean what you make it mean.

Alex's Story is by his own admission,
I repeat,
By his own admission.
If you missed that,
by his own admission.

I am a Commanding Personality he says.
To get the feeling of being Commanding,
he has an MO which is to ridicule and trash other people.
That's all the pattern does.
Strut about sneeringly with the occasional flourish of insight.

If you get trashed by Alex it's actually a compliment.
He doesn't go after weak bastards because he's looking for worthy scalps.
Only worthy scalps increase his sense of I am in Command.
Getting trashed by Alex is endorsement.

His delusion is that he is over and above.
The pattern is common as muck.

It's empty (causes/conditions).
Meaningless (bullshit).

It's suffering.
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Alex Jacob
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Alex Jacob »

Correction: prance floridly and insightfully with occassional teeth-bashing, sneering ridicule of arrogant limitations, destructive reductions, and a pathetic mediocrity.

...and lots and lots of pure LUV!

It's all in the way one orders perception... ;-)

But for you, dear one, I'm revving up the rhetorical engines for a new episode of mal-treatment! Preparez-vous...
Ni ange, ni bête
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Tomas
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Tomas »

Dennis Mahar wrote:If you get trashed by Alex it's actually a compliment.
He doesn't go after weak bastards because he's looking for worthy scalps.
Only worthy scalps increase his sense of I am in Command.
Getting trashed by Alex is endorsement.

His delusion is that he is over and above.
The pattern is common as muck.

It's empty (causes/conditions).
Meaningless (bullshit).

It's suffering.
That's been his pattern since arriving in August 2008.

David Quinn keeps him around as an example of what "shallow" represents .. The Feminine Mind.

His 4-5 usernames/accounts only make(s) him a larger-than-life fool and clearly demonstrate his state-of mental health is suffering.

Reminds me what Naturyl (known as Unidan here) at KIR would do with trolls - attach a troll doll avatar with pink hair - capitalized with TROLL underneath on their every post! Alex was booted out of there in no time flat. The long-winded posts of ME ME ME.
Don't run to your death
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Alex Jacob
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Alex Jacob »

I find this fascinating! Tomas makes almost NO contributions of substance to this forum, and Dennis is driven by one idea only---just one!---yet I receive the designation 'shallow'. It is really very, very curious! I affirm my longstanding wonderfulosity and relevantisticism to a conversation about the Great Questions. I choose to stay within those questions (I don't know where else to go) and don't find this a shallow territory by any means. Still, Tomas, I'd like to share with you a recipe for 'Presidential Brownies'....yum! THAT'S the kind of love I share with y'all...
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Kunga
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Tomas,
TROLL
Of course he trolls.
An internet ego is thoroughly understood.
Get a lonely, old guy in a dingy room, put a computer and a mouse in front of him, give him a couple of bottles of cheap gin,
Have him find a few bulletin boards as a space to project in to,
and you've got a plastic commander...

It's a 'one idea' set up.
4,000 posts over 6 years constituting 'one idea'.

It's thoroughly understood an internet ego mock-up is only sustainable in the condition of internet.

If we were all together in real life, talking face-to face,
the Alex showing up on the internet would be nowhere to be found.
It would be a case of whose ass he would kiss first.
My money would be on David's as the first ass he would try to kiss.


disingenuous.
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Talking Ass
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Talking Ass »

If you get trashed by Alex it's actually a compliment.
Not in your case.

Still, for the sake of everyone, shall we, Dennis, bring our interaction to an end? Let us make a resolution to cease, from here on out, responding to each other. I really don't think much will change, our points of view vary too much. In some cases, those differences can lead to good conversation but not for us, I don't think. Sound reasonable?
fiat mihi
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Running up the white flag are we?

The answer is No.

You need potty training.
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Jamesh
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Jamesh »

That was a load of rubbish Jamesh
I don’t think so, well except the end bit about bohemianism.
In any case only a person with an attachment to their self would make such a comment.
Ego is a designation one has for oneself. A story one has of oneself. A belief. It's out of causes/conditions. That's what empty means. Lacks inherent existence. It doesn't mean what you make it mean
I’m not going over that again.

Emptiness does not mean a lack of inherent existence to me, as I don’t give a damn whether any existence is permanent or transient. For me both are caused existence.

Also, I certainly do not see ego/self as a belief, but a necessity. The ego is the program that tells you how to react to events, totally necessary for survival and growth. It’s routines are learnt by experience.

It is true that our ego program is almost always faulty, as its initial routines are developed when young at a time when emotions play a stronger role than logical assessment, and these faulty routines are difficult to replace. Normally only repetitive thought experience will cause permanent changes to these programs, as per this quote - “Only one thing registers on the subconscious mind: repetitive application - practice. What you practice is what you manifest” – so I do understand your persistence on the issue of emptiness.
I am a Commanding Personality he says. To get the feeling of being Commanding,
he has an MO which is to ridicule and trash other people. That's all the pattern does.
Strut about sneeringly with the occasional flourish of insight
He is only ridiculing you and the QRS, so whats the big deal? Surely being ridiculed means nothing to you. If it does then you are not actually demonstrating this emptiness thing you believe in.

In my view Alex is being rational and you and the QRS are being fundamentalist. All I ever see is base level stuff –setting on the right path sort of stuff. Well I’ve taken that base level stuff and rejected it as being incomplete.

An outcome of fundamentalism always seems to be a desire to command others. As in – YOU WILL LEARN TO THINK LIKE ME OR YOU ARE NOT WORTHY OF COMMUNICATING WITH. Well bad luck, I’ll think how I’m caused to think.

I’m a fundamentalist to, as I’m never going to change from looking at everything stated as an absolute as being at most only half right, as to be a true statement it must be dualistic, with the truth residing in the middle so that absolutes are united as one. For example Existence = Temporary AND permanent, Every thing is caused AND causal, Every thing is interconnected AND not connected. Everything has Mass AND Energy, I am Self and Not Self, things evolve and devolve, Time is linear and non-linear etc.

Alex did annoy me with his repetitive, long, often tangential posts a few years ago, but now that I’m far less attached to this forum, I quite like the Talking Ass posts.

Come-on even if you don’t agree with him, surely his posts are better than much of the meaningless fluff this forum generates these days. You must agree as you have persevered with responses for so long.
If you get trashed by Alex it's actually a compliment.
He doesn't go after weak bastards because he's looking for worthy scalps.
Only worthy scalps increase his sense of I am in Command.
Getting trashed by Alex is endorsement
Again this all sounds very egotistical to me. Though what you say is perhaps dominant, might it also be that weak bastards are just too inane or boring to bother with? Is it better that QRS concentrate these days on "philosophically weak bastards"?

He has the same justification to dismiss your views as you or the QRS dismiss his. As I interpret matters he does what he does for three main reasons:

a) Self learning. When we write things down that helps to clarify our viewpoint. It helps to trasnform ideas from subconscious intuition to clearer, more coherent and more certain reasoning.

b) Self aggrandisement (as you have stated, but I say is common for everyone). He enjoys being clever and receiving compliments. We all often enjoy communication for the same reason.

c) He feels the philosophy here leads to a sort of death of spirit, in more people than it does not. It leads first to nihilism, then to the prison of fundamentalist ideas, where the outcome is a regressive rather than an advancing personality open to new ideas.

He can justify everything he does here by point C, even though point B may be a more important factor in causing him to keep trying to make others see his light.
His delusion is that he is over and above. The pattern is common as muck
True, but in some ways I don’t think it is just common, but it occurs in everyone. After all, it is true by necessity. Reality is always only yours, and thus we cannot help but to value our own INTRINSIC self (a tautology!) above the selves of others as those others selves only affect us in a transient, intermittent and competing fashion.

Although in terms of knowledge we may recognise greater depth or breadth in others, and determine our knowledge is lesser, or we may care for others and put them above ourselves in times of danger, that is not the case in relation to how we apply values. Only we individually can make determinations relating to values.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Certain types of physical, verbal and mental activity are recognised as leading to suffering for one self and others and these are regarded as unwholesome.
Agree?

The roots of such beaviour have been empirically identified to be distortions of the mind like hostility, craving, confusion.
Agree?

The individual does not exist as an isolated, independent entity, intrisically cut off from other sentient beings and the rest of the universe.
Rather, each person exists as a dependantly related event.
Neither our existence nor our degree of well-being is independent from the rest of our environment.
Agree?

As a confusion, the individual has grasped itself as intrinsically existent (ego).
A subtle, but clear distinction must be drawn.

A distinction between the mind that conceives of such an 'I'.
And the 'I' that such a mind grasps.

Is that clear?

I declare that the mind that conceives of an 'I' exists.
That the 'I' that is conceived by the mind exists as a Story.

The intrinsic self is imagined by the mind and that is its status.
Agree?

Don't go running off on a tangent about 'I need a Story' to get by.
Just take in the algebra.
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Talking Ass
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Talking Ass »

Thanks Jamesh. I appreciate the recapitulations of some of the things I try to express. One of the glories of communication, a thing that makes it worthwhile, is when one succeeds in communicating one's ideas.
Alex did annoy me with his repetitive, long, often tangential posts a few years ago, but now that I’m far less attached to this forum, I quite like the Talking Ass posts.
Being a rather dense being, as I have found myself to be and about which I am constantly reminded, it has been necessary for me to repeat to myself certain ideas, which are really realizations for a man in his fifth (gulp!) decade. I guess it is the beginning of the inward gaze, the revision, the (forced!) looking back over everything one has seen, done, 'believed'. One arrives at a point where one really feels the saying:I wish that I knew then what I know now... (Just for that one, great line).

When I came to this forum I recognized it for a place where I could live and grow. I made the decision that I would use it to its full advantage. It is (or must one say now 'was'?) a good forum. I think there is a great deal of advantage in meeting and conversing. I don't know how to respond when people exclaim that they think I am doing harm to the conversation.

If this is true: "c) He feels the philosophy here leads to a sort of death of spirit, in more people than it does not. It leads first to nihilism, then to the prison of fundamentalist ideas, where the outcome is a regressive rather than an advancing personality open to new ideas."

It does lead to the question What is spirituality? What IS religion? If the religion we practice is the outcome of our analysis of 'the way things are', but what we know as religion is also a graveyard, a depository, of old, mis-described artifacts that we don't know how to use (God is dead), how are we going to put it all together again?
____________________________________________________

Dennis, this is the clearest expression I've offered so far. Can the potty training begin with this or will you demand another post to start with? Here's one with an 'edge of insult' by which I ihnibit your growth as a person and devolve human protoplasm and otherwise inflict pretty substantial damage on the Buddha. Do you prefer it?
fiat mihi
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

The difference between you and GF is.

You like Story. You don't like algebra.

That gives you no right to pour scorn on those who tend toward the algebraic side of things.
Those who like 'how it exists'.
The mechanics of it.
The logic of it.

Apologise.

Potty Training 1.
Admit you were wrong. Went too far.
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Kunga
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Kunga »

Dennis...you can reflect what you just stated, back to yourself too.
This place would be boring if everyone was the same.
Can't you see the positive side of Alex ?
Focus on that.
He doesn't want you for a teacher anyways....would you want someone you loathe to tell you what to do ?
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Kunga
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Kunga »

It's hard enough listening/taking to the good advice of friends.
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Talking Ass
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Talking Ass »

Actually, Dennis, that is an interesting issue or area of investigation. Many times I have noted that the sort of mind attracted to the (general) GF formulations is a 'methematical mind'. Not only a person (usually a man, note) who functions well in the universe of numbers, mathematical problems, logic and 'logic', and thought-abstractions that can be used to map or model not only life but the whole Universe: the kosmos and existence itself. With this sort of person, with that sort of orientation (subjective hook-up you might call it)(not you of course, I mean someone with a brain), the so-loved equation with its elegant abstract beauty is so attractive (and seductive?) that they imagine that the equation as well as the methodology can be the only way to grasp Reality, and they define a Holy Path with that methodology at the core as the 'privelaged means'.

If you don't or won't think in those terms (and this is the truth) they label you defective. This is (in truth) a part and parcel of the defining project of this forum and those who think in that way. 'We're the smart ones, we're the geniuses, we see and we know' is not so much what they seem to say but what they say in fact.

[The Talking Ass, bless His Divinity, appropriated that whole shtick, did you know that? That has been part of the game: to mirror back core arrogant attitudes, core assumptions, which is a decided form of aggrandizement that is part-and-parcel of the cult-leader's MO.]

Now, it is also quite possible that on the other side of the hall are those, like me, who appreciate mathematical thinking, and engage in it to some degree (understand its usefulness and utility) but who, for various reasons, do not believe that life can be lived 'mathematically'. More than that, 'we' recognize that there are many different ways to engage with life, and as knowledge increases, one begins to conclude that it is very, very hard to make absolutist statements about any of these Grand Questions. The absolutist, of course, recoils in front of such ambiguity, since it is Certainty that is his core product.

Now, I have never been ignorant of the fact that the GF project, the whole juggler's game, seeks to model itself on a sort of Jnani-Yoga. A thought-yoga or knowledge yoga that (contrary to the tenets of Hinduism BTW) elevates itself above other 'yogas' like Bhakti- or Karma- or Raja-yoga. And I have taken issue with this 'arrogation' of...well, it arrogates to itself (in terms of 'importance') just about everything. There are dozens and dozens of posts where I have gone into this.

As I see it, the 'algebra' is the beginning of the process but not necessarily the end. One needs to begin to order one's mental system and begin to prioritize ideas, values, meaning, and so much more. The 'systems of thought' can help in that process, and are always necessary. But I am (personally) convinced that real understanding comes from (what you might call) another part of the self. Not the logic-seat.

Knowledge, knowing, wisdom and living are all part of a whole. How one gets to that, how one becomes wise, is really a very different process than abstract (mathematical) absorption. One needs a whole other language to even speak about it. It is a language of allusions and hints, rarely is it direct speech.

As to the question of Story versus Abstract Equation. I'll try to get to that a little later.
Would you want someone you loathe to tell you what to do?
Good point, if stated a little cruelly...or ironically... ;-)
fiat mihi
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Kunga
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Kunga »

I cringe at most everything I write.
I guess I'm teaching myself something....lol
to eventually STFU...
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Spirituality means Humility.
Don't have to apologise to any one here.

You went too far.
Even a little mad at times.

Go round to a synagogue or church or mentor and tell someone.
let the story untangle itself in the telling to a 3rd party.
There has to be a 3rd party who will listen without judgement.

To keep justifying yourself and blaming others is antithesis to a foothold in spirit.

Spirit isn't a string of concepts.
It's a way of being.

Ego justifies and blames.
Spirit moves in compassionate ways.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Alex Jacob »

I rather suggest that 'spirituality', Life and Consciousness are mediated by an unnamable, unpredictable, on certain levels inscrupulous Force that will stop at nothing to get through to us.

If you wish to or need to conduct yourself in 'humility' (you are everything but...) then do it. That will be your Art, your love, your value, your highest ethic.

But don't insist that others conform themselves to your (contrived and not even followed) ethic. That would be hypocricy, wouldn't it?

Finally, the 'recommended.behavior' of the forum is brutal truth-telling which can 'bloody the ego'. Without it, is life really worth living? (BTW one doesn't kiss David's ass, one kisses his feet!)

Madness, sanity, good manners, ass-kissing. Such interestimg question!
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What I say is found to be the case.
We're all in the same boat.

Stop fighting.
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