Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Tomas,
On the question 'what will basil/brokie do?

What was done to convince you?

Bob,
Armageddon is not guaranteed.
It's possible.
No reason to get excited.
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David Quinn
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by David Quinn »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Laird,
empty means causes/conditions.

You experience 'life' as changing situations involving people and things.
like a rolling river.
the situation arose out of causes/conditions beyond your control and is therefore empty.
any particular situation appears and disappears in the blink of an eye.
It's ultimately meaningless,
and you give it meaning.
much ado about nothing.
There are other ways of looking at the meaninglessness of things as well.

For example, things gain and lose meaning depending on what perspective we adopt. Something that seems meaningful from one point of view is seen to to be completely meaningless from another. How many times do we hear people who survive an illness or an accident, in which they had to confront death and their own mortality, say that they realised in that moment just how unimportant their usual daily concerns were. The need to become wealthy, make lots of friends, increase their social reputation, follow their favourite sporting team - all of the things that usually obsess them - are suddenly seen, from a different perspective, to be without value.

I find Alex's values and behaviour to be meaningless, and no doubt he finds the same with me. Meaning is in the eye of the beholder.

Meaning is essentially a function of ego. A person tends to find meaning in anything that gives his ego a boost. His family and friends are meaningful because they have the power to affect the fortunes of his ego. He becomes deeply upset if his wife dies, but experiences almost nothing when someone else's wife dies. Two wives die, but only one of them is deeply intertwined with his own egotism and emotional well-being.

Music is only meaningful when one's ego becomes involved, whether it be through the crude process of worshiping a rock star, or the more subtle process of experiencing sublime altered states - both acquire their meaning through the boost they give to the ego. The same is true of sport. Sport only becomes meaningful when one begins to become attached to a particular team or individual. The more fanatical the attachment, the more meaningful each bounce of the ball seems to be.

And then there is the accidental nature of our lives to consider. What a person happens to find meaningful depends on where he was born, on how his genes constructed his brain and body, what culture he grew up in, who he meets, what experiences he has. One person growing up in India finds cows and reincarnation to be incredibly meaningful, while another person in the deep south of America never thinks about cows or reincarnation at all. People often abuse each other over what they find meaningful, even to the point of wanting to kill each other, completely oblivious to the fact that what they each happen to find meaningful is purely the result of random chance. Thinking along these lines alone is enough to show how meaningless it all is.

-
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Kunga
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Kunga »

Alex Jacob wrote:Coyote stories are mythological stories, part of indigenous culture. The coyote saga in N America shifts to the Rabbit saga (Tio Conejo) south of the border. The stories shift and morph and they are used to illustrate aspects of life that we can all relate to. 'Plagiarize' is the wrong word. I took that story out of And Coyote Makes the World which deals on the trickster, on Hermes, on all those who transgress boundaries. Anyway, can one really be bothered about plagiarism when The Dark Hordes clammor and Armegeddon is almost on top of us?


Yes, I agree plagiarize was not your intension (sorry). I thought about it later in the day...I know you were just using your creative jucies to make a point (of how we aLL tried so desperately to make you see things our way...with our eyes....which would make you into a freakish, poorly adapted Frankenstein-Coyote. I thought that story was a excellent tool to teach this....and I acually learned something and was humbled by it....thankyou for that.



Tomas wrote: "Alex, I know I done been hard on you and for no good reason. I praise people, then condemn them, first appreciating then detesting. I have been acting quite.erratic lately. Possibly the 'lowest' point I have yet sunk is my team-up with Darlin Dennis to go after 'Brokie'. When human beings act like dogs, like vicious children, it is said that Jesus sheds a tear and the Enemy is given ammunition. Now that Obama (Anti-Christ with wicked wife and daughters) is ushering in the Final War, I don't want to give Satan no ammunition. Thank you for the PM you sent a while.back. I see.now that Brokie and cousinbasil are two, distinct persons. God, I'm glad to be done with THAT paranoia! You really help this forum to be a better place. Hello to that wAcKy bird Weisenheimer!"
Hi Tomas. Thank you. Your words mean a lot to me. Go easy on yourself and if you can try to contribute something useful to the forum.

The Alexians.

LOL. Yeah, right.....and Tomas confessed to me he was wrong about Obama being the Anti-Christ !
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Kunga
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
'Go round to a synagogue or church or mentor and tell someone....."

How do you explain what this means ?
One can get so involved in a Story that the Story 'controls' oneself.
one can be 'in the head'.
The idea of a mentor, priest, rabbi, psychologist, going on a retreat, discerning friend,
who provides listening without judgement, refrains from giving advice,
who lets you speak without interruption for as long as it takes,
for the conceptual tangle to become unravelled in the mind which is the only place it exists and can be untangled from.
It's not confessing sin.
It's untangling the Story.

Stories can give the appearance that the situation is intrinsically real and the people and things involved in the situation are intrinsically real and can be brought under one's control.
Doesn't work like that.


There's the mind and the Story the mind runs with.

The 'I' and the 'I' in the story are found to be conceptually designated arisings that do not exist intrinsically, that go out from the mind and tend to run amok.

The story can take the mind in to very dark places of irritability, restlessness and discontent and have one completely lose the plot.

Debriefing is another word for it.



Dennis...........but you suggested to Alex that he go to a Temple, Church, or see a priest....that to me... sounded like he should confess his sins. Don't you see the connection? I mean , why use those places to "Debrief " ?

Your explaination is starting to sound like a story weaving and tangling.....lol....I'm gonna just let go now......Peace.
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Kunga
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Kunga,
You say you don't give a fuck about aliases and multiple aliases.
I say you do.
I say you don't go to your workplace for instance, carrying aliases and multiple aliases with you.
Because it would be confusing.
The argument concerning aliases and multiple aliases is that.
Terms of endearment or otherwise might be put on you in the workplace, that doesn't count as confusion because there is a body present to connect them with.

When I said I don't care about how many sockpuppets anyone has....I was referring to this forum.
And besides....people have multiple names everywhere you go....it's very common.
Some people use them to be deceitful intensionally.
Alex's are for fun, to designate a specific character he likes to play, as he said, not to be deceitful.
It's all about intension.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Tomas »

.

This is for all the sock's out there, nothing personal, Kunga.

-Kunga-
Tomas, I wasn't trying to "EXPOSE" him to anything.

-tomas-
We're not flashing each other here ;-)


-Kunga-
I loved that little story...and was curious if there was anything out there similar...

-tomas-
I grew up with Captain Kangaroo (including Mr Green Jeans, Grandfather Clock etc) and latter generations of boob-tube watchers glued in to Mr. Rogers (and his supporting cast). I watched his show once or twice and was not impressed as there is only one Captain Kangaroo - no copy cat sock-puppets allowed.


-Kunga-
I wanted to see a illustration....lol...cause when I pictured him with those lopsided eyes and his head tilted--trying to hold the eyes in...I found it so endearing....had I found an illustration, I was gonna post it.....

-tomas-
Yes, the feminine mind is surreal. And Alex is a Fictional Mistress go-between in fulfilling your every dream. Reality be damned.


-Kunga-
I couldn't care less if he plagiarized the story.

-tomas-
emptiness? meaningless? Shallow?


-Kunga-
And I could care less about how many sockpuppets he has.

-tomas-
Sure, you've had a few yourself :-/


-Kunga-
Creative people break the rules.

-tomas-
So, why are you here?


-Kunga-
Sheeples follow them.

-tomas-
Sure. The blind leading the senseless.

.
Don't run to your death
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Tomas
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Tomas »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Possibly the 'lowest' point I have yet sunk is my team-up with Darlin Dennis to go after 'Brokie'.
You were presenting a case that looked like it had substance.
You were seeking clarification.
You had a case of similarities between bas and brokie that appeared to indicate they were one and the same.
You were bringing it to a head for resolution.
You weren't wrong.
You had a case.
It was interesting.

You win some, you lose some.
So what?

If it looks fishy,
Go fishin'.

You don't have to kowtow to anyone.
on to the next case.
That is Alex who wrote the above. That wasn't me who wrote that.

Alex is gaming you.

.
Don't run to your death
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Bob Michael
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Bob Michael »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Bob, Armageddon is not guaranteed. It's possible. No reason to get excited.
There's no undue excitement here at all, Dennis, just a continual 'letting-go' and becoming one with the Master Plan. And the smell of doomsday is in the air stronger than ever before in history. At least for my nostrils.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Bob Michael »

David Quinn wrote:I find Alex's values and behaviour to be meaningless, and no doubt he finds the same with me. Meaning is in the eye of the beholder.
Alex is not a fool when it comes to seeing through others, David. And woe to the man who can't learn something of value (something meaningful [truthful]) from virtually everyone. Spiritually speaking such a man is as good as dead.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by guest_of_logic »

Dennis,

I dreamt up all sorts of possible ways to respond to you, but I've decided I'd rather not continue. I really just wanted to pop my head up briefly to put in my two cents and see if I could help you to see what Alex has been trying to say to you, but I guess that was always going to be a pointless endeavour. I'll leave you with this thought: if, as you say everything is, your posts to GF are "empty and meaningless", then is there any reason why anyone would/should bother reading and considering them, let alone responding to them? That's a serious question - I'm not trying to ridicule you, I'm trying to understand how you resolve the apparent (glaring) conflicts in your position.

That's all for now.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Alex is not a fool when it comes to seeing through others, David.
There's no person there Bob.
No person is self-established, existing from its own side.
A person is causes/conditions.

What David is talking about is 'self-centeredness'.
That's what you can recognise from the Alex pattern.
He thinks he's in command which mitigates his aloofness, his sneering.
He thinks he can't be caught. Catch me if you can, you can't catch me. I'm controlling stuff 'round here, is his way.

You implied as much the other day when you nominated a foolishness in him.


AA recognises self-centeredness as the root problem.

Working the program is a condition eliminating self-centeredness.
I went to an Alonon event tonight and it's remarkable how people working the program step away from their self-centeredness by degrees and have some sanity restored.
You can still see the self-centeredness lurking there in the background, as if awaiting it's chance...
A day at a time..

It's very difficult and somewhat unproductive to criticise a person because there's no person there as such.
There's causes/conditions.

To discover the link in the chain that has the personhood oriented in the self-centered condition is nigh impossible if the personhood isn't communicating. Is practising aloofness.
If a pattern isn't communicating it's because it works for them control-wise to practice aloofness.

Surely, in your mentoring Bob, you've seen the survival mode 'aloofness' withdraw the pattern from conscious contact and take them away.
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David Quinn
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by David Quinn »

Bob Michael wrote:
David Quinn wrote:I find Alex's values and behaviour to be meaningless, and no doubt he finds the same with me. Meaning is in the eye of the beholder.
Alex is not a fool when it comes to seeing through others, David. And woe to the man who can't learn something of value (something meaningful [truthful]) from virtually everyone. Spiritually speaking such a man is as good as dead.
I notice that he sees right through you, Bob. Although, admittedly, that isn't a hard thing to do.

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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I'll leave you with this thought: if, as you say everything is, your posts to GF are "empty and meaningless", then is there any reason why anyone would/should bother reading and considering them, let alone responding to them? That's a serious question - I'm not trying to ridicule you, I'm trying to understand how you resolve the apparent (glaring) conflicts in your position.
Sorry I haven't conveyed the message.

all things are empty doesn't mean they are nothing, bleak, depressing, it means they lack inherent existence, are not self- established, are like moons in water, appearances.
they may appear permanent, as a Universe might, but it will too disappear,
they are causes/conditions.
all form is in itself arising out of causes/conditions.
it is nothing but causes/conditions.
the only way change can occur is because it is that way and change is the natural order.

as such,
things lack intrinsic meaning.
You assign the meaning component.
You plunge in.

The thing you bank on ( the meaning component) is never there as permanent condition that you can put in the bank.
Realising all that leaves one free 'to dance, frolic, caper'.
Realising that is the sure knowledge one requires nothing from anybody.
Nobody holds anything for you, away from you, behind you, over you.
You thought they have something that you haven't.
They haven't.

This isn't rocket science.
It's in your face.

Alex understands it, why don't you?
Why don't you understand Alex understands it?
He just likes to phrase it in his own way.


It's not enlightenment.
It's the necessary precursor to enlightenment.

For enlightenment you have to shed the 'I'.

QRS banks on Wisdom, the algebra.
Alex scoffs at the algebra as the only way, Alex says he intuited it and declares QRS self-aggrandising for insisting Reason is the only way.

I say you can put all your dollars on QRS contributed to Alex's understanding coupled with all the reading he's done before.
I say the QRS conversation helped all Alex's prior study to 'coagulate'.

I'm trying to engage Alex to have him openly declare his true position in relation to the QRS conversation.
To enrol a possibility of generosity as opposed to persistent 'fighting it'.

No man is an island.
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David Quinn
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by David Quinn »

Would you say, Dennis, that you find the truth to be meaningful? I personally find the insight that all things are empty and meaningless from the ultimate perspective to be very meaningful. Laird sees this as a contradiction, but it isn't a contradiction to anyone who understands these matters and is capable of dialectical redoubling.

It also should be emphasised that realizing that all things are empty and meaningless is merely the start of the journey to enlightenment, and not the end. It is the start to an ever-increasing fullness of knowing and living. Laird is at the disadvantage of trying to judge these matters from afar, unconscious of what these truths lead to.

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Alex Jacob
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Alex Jacob »

Tomas wrote: "Alex is gaming you."
Allow me to rephrase that and to clarify. The Alexians game the gamers. Very important point. The Alexians have a sort of Sixth Sense when it comes to high faluting spiritual chicanery, and when they notice it, they (l'il devils!) enjoy pointing it out. Now, you are not one, Tomas, with much pretension toward the 'spiritual' except insofar as you seem to have fallen in with the Tea Party mass-hysteria and are experiencing an internal fReAk-oUt that you wound up with a Darkie in the White's House. Internalizing this unconscious terror of the Dark Man, but unable to clearly identify it, to process it and deal with it, you project this knotted complex outward. It is a truly spectacular performance and a giant Game if ever there was one! You will take it to the extreme of visualizing (which is a form of invocation) a literal Armaggedon, Satanic Armies with Socialist Darkies at the lead, &cetera.

So, the Alexians game the gamers. It is really quite simple though I admit a little annoying. But this goes further: you never contribute anything of substance to this forum or to its conversations. You are in very truth a sort of Troll. But you set yourself up to judge anyone and everyone and---in your latest Game---you wrote (of me!): "Fictional Mistress go-between in fulfilling your every dream. Reality be damned", as if your whole presence has any relationship to this 'Reality' of which you speak. So again, the Alexians game the gamers.

See, I find the 'truths' that come out of this sort of seeing as interesting---and revealing---as the important (if abstract) subjects of the conversations that take place here. I learn a great deal from the games...

Have I succeeded in clarifying things for you?
David wrote: 1) "I notice that he sees right through you, Bob. Although, admittedly, that isn't a hard thing to do."

2) "It also should be emphasised that realizing that all things are empty and meaningless is merely the start of the journey to enlightenment, and not the end. It is the start to an ever-increasing fullness of knowing and living. Laird is at the disadvantage of trying to judge these matters from afar, unconscious of what these truths lead to."

3) "I find Alex's values and behaviour to be meaningless, and no doubt he finds the same with me. Meaning is in the eye of the beholder."
As to 1) allow me to say: I think one of the tricks we have to perform, a very important life skill, is in 'seeing through' which is really a branch of hermeneutics. Life is a game (if you will) of Interpretation. In many respects we are in a House of Mirrors, a strange sort of Magical Land the nature of which we do not understand, the subject of it, the victim of it. Some persons are simply not called to make any sort of analysis of the Nature of this Reality, and do little more than carry on here until death takes them out. Or, the rely on a prepackaged description of Reality, a prepackaged Ethic and all the rest. In one of the worst cases, I guess, they might become subjects of a Tyrannical State that will determine for them everything. Maybe in that circumstance the Questions that are delved into here would be illegal, and punishable by death? It is not impossible. So, with this, I suggest that there is a 'meaningfulness' in simply sticking with the Questions. Getting the Questions fully out in the open. You see, I have already (if you'll permit me to say) experienced my own 'profound revelation' in which I began to deal (am dealing...) with my Existential Position. The cosmos stood still for a moment, I saw into the Charade, and (feel that) I saw into the substructure. Such things, for me, will not ever be expressed except as Allusions, as hints, and (for me) it is all terribly ironical. Hilariously ironical! But I can't simply state exactly why! But try to understand, at least, that I operate in conformity with the Grand Design that has been revealed to me, just as I know everyone else does. In fact: We have no choice but to conduct ourselves in accord with a very basic and 'core' sense of how we understand this Cosmos is structured. What we do, say, think, feel, etcetera, stems directly from that.

As to regarding your activity as 'meaningless', I have to confess that I find this very surprising. True, you likely don't read my posts, but in no sense at all do I consider your grasp of things 'meaningless'. Nor your activities. I regard them as exceedingly meaningFUL. What I differ about is the Ethic that springs from them; the limiting and too-structured nature of your Axioms; a sort of rigidity and (quite often) humorlessness; and perhaps also taking everything about yourself and your Project...just a wee-bit too seriously. It is right at this point that you begin to coincide, in my lyrical and ironical mind, with Bison Bob and Darlin Dennis! (And I suppose we have to chuck in Ole Tomas of the Black Hill'a Dakota slappin Custer's handcuffs into his palm, waitin fer the bust to go down...waitin t'lock The Alexians up fer once an fer all!) A funny thing is how your recent return/arrival is like a God-send for Dennis who will now receive a substantial bolster for his little project. There is a point where things self-parody and one hardly has to do anything at all! Just sit back with a 'gin and tonic' (the cheaper the gin the better, eh Dennis?) and soak up all the delight...of 'spiritual gamery'.

As to the rather elegant description you offered about how an 'ego' constructs a world of meaning on the basis of 'egotistical' attachment, and how by looking at it (all), it can be seen as absurd, is wonderful and very useful stuff. But this does not go far enough, in my view. If I stormed into your house right now and declared This House Is Mine! would you just shrug your shoulders, grab a few things, get on your bike and ride away? I doubt it. You would call the police or otherwise defend yourself. It is not enough to see that we incarnated beings have interests in this realm, it is a question of purifying our relationship to our being here. There are indeed things to defend, there most certainly are! and the question is in defining (soberly) just what they are. A vision of valuelessness, or the senselessness of attachment, is not enough, indeed it can be destructive. It is a question (as you carry it out) of redefinition. Assigning new value-systems.

And in this I am with you 100%.

As to 2). Please note how your phrasing in rhetoric-laden. You assume that you have the Correct Vision that enables YOU to see the result of that vision as well as its (naturally arising) 'Enlightenment'. The assumption is foregone, for you. With this, you reveal yourself (like Bob?) as One Who Knows. You possess and can of course Dole Out the Truth. But what if---just What If!---in some senses or even all senses Laird is ahead of you? Wouldn't that be the damndest thing?

Note the Image Managment Games...and then ask this very important question.

Please don't take this to mean that I will not get down on my many knees (I had to count, I think there are 10 altogether!)(sockless!) and Kiss your Feet, you most Holy of men!

Enlightenment: such a difficult thing to define...

This is also where Alex games the gamers! and he has so much side-splitting fun doing it!
Darlin Dennis wrote: 1) "The thing you bank on (the meaning component) is never there as permanent condition that you can put in the bank. Realising all that leaves one free 'to dance, frolic, caper'. I say you can put all your dollars on QRS contributed to Alex's understanding coupled with all the reading he's done before. I say the QRS conversation helped all Alex's prior study to 'coagulate'."

2) "I'm trying to engage Alex to have him openly declare his true position in relation to the QRS conversation."

3) "He thinks he's in command which mitigates his aloofness, his sneering. He thinks he can't be caught. Catch me if you can, you can't catch me. I'm controlling stuff 'round here, is his way."
As to 3) I wish to say (again, in the spirit of gaming the gamers): The game that you have played and continue to play is one of an Upstart. You felt very free to 'go after' The Alexians because you sensed that, in lieu of the Forum's declaration of values, that 'they' were fair game. My perception was you used this game as a way to ingratiate yourself with those, like David, who are forced to support 'you' insofar as you toe the party line (so to speak). In respect to you, I have been and still am 'in command' yet still I wish you to note the language you employ. One senses, quite clearly, that you desire to be 'in command' and indeed this desire is what one notes about you. You will stop at nothing, it would seem. Teaming up with Tomas, teaming up with Bob, and now with David? Tsk tsk tsk. It ain't pretty, Darlin Dennis, it ain't pretty! It is the principal thing, in fact. This is again where The Alexians game the gamers. As long as there is this sort of flagrant Ego playing games of spiritual one-upmanship, there The Alexians sally forth! blazons cracking in the wind! the rhetorical engines burning a fuel of humorousness!

As to 2), please permit this small comment: I have been 'declaring' my 'true position' in regard to the QRS conversation since Day One. In your case, it simply goes over your head, if you even read at all. One notices, one suggests, that, for you, this has only a small part to do with, say, 'truth' or integrity and clarity and cogency of idea expressed, but much more about the usurpation by an upstart of a conversation. And again: The Alexians game the gamers simply by noting this.

Finally, I am quite indebted (and have always stated this) to what David and Kevin and Dan have done. They have done and I suppose continue to do some very notable and fine work if only in having created a space for such conversations, for having definined the Questions that, for them, have the most value. We define our values, we organize them and our ideas, and we go into the world seeking to influence it, to convert it, to evangelize it! I hope you will understand that my contempt for you is not at all the same as my differing with QRS on certain (important) poinst, but not at all with the project of defining the important questions. You are a sort of 'rat' who piggy-backs onto the work of others even as you insinuate yourself more and more.

Can you distinguish the difference? Or are you, as I say, really and genuinely that stupid? ;-)

[And 'stupid' is not the word, really, the word is Willful. Will, ego, self: these are very important, nay essential things. It is really that we have to 'purify' and cleanse them...make them shine!]
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Would you say, Dennis, that you find the truth to be meaningful? I personally find the insight that all things are empty and meaningless from the ultimate perspective to be very meaningful. Laird sees this as a contradiction, but it isn't a contradiction to anyone who understands these matters and is capable of dialectical redoubling.

It also should be emphasised that realizing that all things are empty and meaningless is merely the start of the journey to enlightenment, and not the end. It is the start to an ever-increasing fullness of knowing and living. Laird is at the disadvantage of trying to judge these matters from afar, unconscious of what these truths lead to.
-

Grokking empty/meaningless is an ego attribution.
Ego gets it.
Ego was asleep, plunging into all sorts of situations trying to get something and was getting knocked from pillar to post.
Ego wakes up.
Awake ego.
Ego is now supercharged and feels bulletproof.

Alexian stage. Trickster. Gamer. Everything's gaming.
Thinks it has got all the bases covered.
It kinda has but doesn't see it only has the bases.

Needs potty training.

How do you get a supercharged ego to see the only way it exists is by conceptual designation?

Confront it.
It squeals like a baby.
It still has a raw nerve.
If you're hitting that nerve you're gonna get a mouthful of abuse.
It also should be emphasised that realizing that all things are empty and meaningless is merely the start of the journey to enlightenment, and not the end.
That is indeed the salient point.
Last edited by Dennis Mahar on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Alex Jacob »

With this caveat: I assert that it is Life who 'games the gamer'. It is the platform that is Hermes-like, trickster-like, and ironically allows us to play. That play might be called Maya or Illusion. In this sense The Alexians are but 'poor players' who strut and prance with little other ulterior motive except in holding to the Grand Questions. The Alexians assert that we need to watch very cafefully those who exclaim and assert they have an Absolute understanding or program, and that those games are best exposed.

There is a difference between your designation of us and what We say about Ourselves.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

With this caveat: I assert that it is Life who 'games the gamer'
Do what you like.
It's only your next best move.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Alex Jacob »

It also should be emphasised that realizing that all things are empty and meaningless is merely the start of the journey to enlightenment, and not the end.
Realizing (insisting?) that everything is 'empty & meaningless' does not in any sense guarantee the start of a journey, toward anything or toward 'enlightenment'. In fact, it could be the start of things very much in oppostition. One could, of course, start with the presupposition of 'fullness', or 'meaning', or really so many different 'things' or ideas or even feelings, and arrive at exalted states (I prefer not to use the term 'enlightenment' because it is far too vague). It is a possible error on the part of the QRStians to place so much emphasis, such a doctrinal emphasis, on 'emptiness' and the meaninglessness of transitory things, and to privelage an abstract 'emptiness' as a Meaning.

Who defines and decides Enlightenment?
Ni ange, ni bête
cousinbasil
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by cousinbasil »

Alex Jacob wrote:
It also should be emphasized that realizing that all things are empty and meaningless is merely the start of the journey to enlightenment, and not the end.
Realizing (insisting?) that everything is 'empty & meaningless' does not in any sense guarantee the start of a journey, toward anything or toward 'enlightenment'. In fact, it could be the start of things very much in oppostition. One could, of course, start with the presupposition of 'fullness', or 'meaning', or really so many different 'things' or ideas or even feelings, and arrive at exalted states (I prefer not to use the term 'enlightenment' because it is far too vague). It is a possible error on the part of the QRStians to place so much emphasis, such a doctrinal emphasis, on 'emptiness' and the meaninglessness of transitory things, and to privelage an abstract 'emptiness' as a Meaning.

Who defines and decides Enlightenment?
@ Alex: There are many of your posts that make me wonder where you are going, and it is only in a later post I get your drift. But quite a few, like this one, are direct and sum up my own objections to "philosophy" as I often read it here - especially that ending in the pfftt! of meaninglessness - better than I ever seem to be able to.

For if it is true that existence is not inherent, and yet we concede existence exists - meaning could not be inherent. Yet this is not to say meaning does not exist. You, Dennis, in your numbing repetitiveness, are either claiming this (that meaning does not exist), or are claiming something far more objectionable, namely, that it only exists if and when you say it does, and it therefore is what you say it is.

To use one of your favorite summations: bullshit.

Follow the simple logic of it. If meaning is not inherent, then that meaning which exists is imparted. A new born is either a collection of slimy, noisy , smelly, needy half-formed organs, which would atrophy in a few days if unattended; or else it is a it is someone's child. The meaning such a new parent imbues the infant with is not inherent in the infant - at least not according to the pfftt! school of thought where everybody willy-nilly goes about assigning arbitrary meaningless meanings to things in their actually meaningless lives. There are some who might believe that even if the grandest Taj Mahal has no meaning, the least of human lives yet does.
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Bob Michael
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Bob Michael »

David Quinn wrote:I notice that he sees right through you, Bob. Although, admittedly, that isn't a hard thing to do.
I shall hold my tongue here, David. Love commands me to do so. He who truly and deeply loves needs no one to dump on in order to feel good about himself.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

basil,
Meaning is essentially a function of ego. A person tends to find meaning in anything that gives his ego a boost. His family and friends are meaningful because they have the power to affect the fortunes of his ego. He becomes deeply upset if his wife dies, but experiences almost nothing when someone else's wife dies. Two wives die, but only one of them is deeply intertwined with his own egotism and emotional well-being.

Music is only meaningful when one's ego becomes involved, whether it be through the crude process of worshiping a rock star, or the more subtle process of experiencing sublime altered states - both acquire their meaning through the boost they give to the ego. The same is true of sport. Sport only becomes meaningful when one begins to become attached to a particular team or individual. The more fanatical the attachment, the more meaningful each bounce of the ball seems to be.

And then there is the accidental nature of our lives to consider. What a person happens to find meaningful depends on where he was born, on how his genes constructed his brain and body, what culture he grew up in, who he meets, what experiences he has. One person growing up in India finds cows and reincarnation to be incredibly meaningful, while another person in the deep south of America never thinks about cows or reincarnation at all. People often abuse each other over what they find meaningful, even to the point of wanting to kill each other, completely oblivious to the fact that what they each happen to find meaningful is purely the result of random chance. Thinking along these lines alone is enough to show how meaningless it all is.

-
From David.

Meaning is a function of Ego.
Ego is a story with a story.
Heard any good ones lately?

The experience is,
I exist.
Existence exists.

How it exists is investigated.

The QRS algebra gets to non-duality.
The 'separate self' (Ego) is refuted.

What you attach to, person or thing,
is you giving it absolute existence.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Bob Michael »

Dennis wrote:There's no person there Bob. No person is self-established, existing from its own side. A person is causes/conditions.

What David is talking about is 'self-centeredness'. That's what you can recognise from the Alex pattern. He thinks he's in command which mitigates his aloofness, his sneering. He thinks he can't be caught. Catch me if you can, you can't catch me. I'm controlling stuff 'round here, is his way. You implied as much the other day when you nominated a foolishness in him.
Yes, I see the foolishness (self-centeredness - 'running') in Alex. But that doesn't change the fact that he's no fool when it comes to rightly seeing through others. We're all considerably adept at seeing the 'self' in others, it's a learned survival tool. But rare is the man who sees and then totally eradicates the 'self' in himself. A man who is then one with the Infinite. And not merely in theory or via lip-service, but in his every word, thought, and deed.
Dennis wrote:AA recognises self-centeredness as the root problem. Working the program is a condition eliminating self-centeredness. I went to an Alanon event tonight and it's remarkable how people working the program step away from their self-centeredness by degrees and have some sanity restored. You can still see the self-centeredness lurking there in the background, as if awaiting it's chance...A day at a time..
I've been to 3 A. A. meetings today, Dennis. Shared at all of them and received absolutely no negative feedback from anyone. Which does sometimes come my way if I'm not one with my Higher Power or a vessel of pure love and compassion. Years ago I attended many Alanon meetings. And with very few, if any, exceptions all these rooms or meetings are overwhelmingly filled with the darkness of self-centeredness. Nearly all claimed growth away from self-centeredness in all of these 12 step fellowships is on a shallow and fleeting psychological level (much like foxhole prayer) and not at a deeply spiritual level. Which is really not true change or growth at all. The reason being that unless a person undergoes a "complete psychic change" and then becomes willing to "completely give themselves to this simple program" there's no radically new being and therefore no true and continual spiritual recovery and development. All you have is 'selves' pretending to be fixing them-'selves', which amounts to nothing but an attempt to redecorate the same old prison. While reinforcing the same foolish wrong action, which is really non-action, in others, all the while falsely claiming individual collective recovery and wellness. Much like a mutual admiration society. But it still remains a prison. An individual and collective prison, and surely not complete freedom of the human spirit. Among all the many, many people I know in the various 12 step fellowships, I know only one man who, like myself, has fully broken through the old state of consciousness and has thereby acquired a pure oneness with the mind and the power of the Infinite. Not necessarily in perfect action, but in perfect spirit. Though I do see some potentials for the necessary rebirth (psychic change), which is why I must create an 'Ark'. Since these potentials will never breakthrough in the rooms, due to the darkness of the self-centeredness therein and also the ignorance of the need for and the experience of a complete psychic change. Its watering down or supposed lack of importance actually began very early on in the development of the A. A. program. To the point where today it's sneered at by most.

Following is a copy of an e-mail I sent just yesterday to one of these potentials on the matter:

My deeply troubled opinion of that French Creek meeting last night is that vitually everyone there was hopelessly lost in the darkness of self-centeredness and non-understanding of true spiritual recovery. Men and women whose minds and hearts (through no fault of their own) have been closed to the point that there'll be no opening of them under any circumstances. About a dozen or so of the people who were there I've seen around the rooms over the years, and I saw no change or real spiritual growth in them. If there were perhaps a few souls among them who (like the man who you felt was sincerely 'reaching out') are capable of coming to live in the light, there's absolutely no hope of them ever doing so in a room full of darkness. Which is why a fellowship of the pure light of truth, understanding, and love will be absolutely necessary if a portion of the human species is to be 'saved' before the soon coming grand nuclear conflagration takes place. This being the human species only hope of survival, completion, and final perfection.
Dennis wrote:It's very difficult and somewhat unproductive to criticise a person because there's no person there as such. There's causes/conditions. To discover the link in the chain that has the personhood oriented in the self-centered condition is nigh impossible if the personhood isn't communicating. Is practising aloofness. If a pattern isn't communicating it's because it works for them control-wise to practice aloofness.
I've spoken my peace to Alex, and have no need to chase after him and rag on and on like you and others constantly do with unending arguments and debates (and quite foolish ones as Alex easily and rightly sees through them - as I do too), along with the belittlements and need to prove yourselves right and him wrong. I was once somewhat like Alex, but eventually overcame the problem. Unlike myself, you and others tend to see only the faults in others, and not the possible potential for human perfection in them. Chances are too that yous simply don't want to see or admit the perfection, or its potential, in others. Which is quite understandable.
Dennis wrote:Surely, in your mentoring Bob, you've seen the survival mode 'aloofness' withdraw the pattern from conscious contact and take them away.
Quite frankly I keenly smell the many, many ways of 'self' in everyone, Dennis. So much so that it can overwhelm me with a tremendous sorrow if I let it. And sometimes in the past it did to the point where I seriously considered entering into mahasamadhi or just plain suicide. But as time went on I finally found the way out for a portion of the human species. Which helps keep me filled with enthusiasm for life in a world full of essentially dead (though considerably violent - both physically and psychologically) human beings.

Christ said that unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. But who, I ask, understands this at a deeply experiential level? Who understands Christ? Who has ever walked perfectly in his footsteps and then of necessity has gone beyond him?
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by guest_of_logic »

I poke my head up again momentarily, as cousinbasil has inspired some further thoughts with what he wrote here:
cousinbasil wrote:Follow the simple logic of it. If meaning is not inherent, then that meaning which exists is imparted. A new born is either a collection of slimy, noisy , smelly, needy half-formed organs, which would atrophy in a few days if unattended; or else it is a it is someone's child. The meaning such a new parent imbues the infant with is not inherent in the infant - at least not according to the pfftt! school of thought where everybody willy-nilly goes about assigning arbitrary meaningless meanings to things in their actually meaningless lives. There are some who might believe that even if the grandest Taj Mahal has no meaning, the least of human lives yet does.
I think we can go even further to argue that meaning is entirely implicate. To start with, I'd suggest that associated with, for example, the hinge on my cupboard door is its meaning as a mechanism for swinging the door, and that this meaning could be said to "exist" in the same independent sense in which mathematical and logical truths exist i.e. that it holds regardless of whether it is currently the subject of a conscious thought. From there it's possible to contemplate more and more complex meanings and see that exactly the same can be said of them too, even of those which at first glance we'd term "personal" or "subjective" - I think there's a very good argument to be made that all meaning of all types is implicit in reality and that we simply "access" it. The perspective entailed by this argument is in total contrast to the view that "it's all empty and meaningless" - on the contrary, it's all utterly brimming with an infinitude of meaning.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Post by Dennis Mahar »

and that this meaning could be said to "exist" in the same independent sense in which mathematical and logical truths exist
Doesn't exist independant of mind.
Follow the bouncing ball please.
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