Can people change?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Tomas
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Tomas »

mental vagrant wrote:I've forgotten when Luke was burried and you two took over :P

movingalways argues for independant driven choices

Dennis Mahar replies, he is, that's all, end, because
Luke "Use the Force" Space is busily trying to improve his IQ number while Moving "Through Air" Always and Dennis "The Beatnik Bowery Boy" Mahar are ever-busily taking the opposite tack and dumbing down theirs .. who gets to their magic number first .. stay tuned. It doesn't get any better than this, only downhill to the grave.

PS - They all have recorded messages that they'll send here after they've entered the final destination. So they never really detatch from Genius Forum. Ain't we lucky?
Don't run to your death
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mental vagrant
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Re: Can people change?

Post by mental vagrant »

movingalways wrote:
mental vagrant wrote:
movingalways wrote:mv, the piece of the puzzle that I believe you are not seeing is that regardless of how big the material universe is, regardless of what man believes is yet to discover in its vastness , is that the vast, material universe is in him. This is what is meant by the kingdom of heaven is within. The poets and mystics know this truth, the physicists are discovering this truth. I am sure you have encountered this stanza of William Blake's poem "To See A World":

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

To hold infinity in the palm of your hand means every form is in the Mind of God. You can't get more holistic than the singular-plural reality of IS.

Ralph Waldo Emerson:

"Though we soar into the heavens;
though we should sink into the abyss,
we never go out of ourselves,
it is always our own thoughts
that we perceive."

Can you not see the truth of these words?
We are the universe, some of it. Imagination. Doesn't define everything.
Now we're cooking with gas! Yes, imagination is some of it, and you are right, it doesn't define everything. It defines our sentience, no more, no less. But where you are mistaken is that we are indeed all of the universe; I remain steadfast in that knowledge. it is just that in order to discover the aspect of us that is unconditioned and therefore hidden to our conditioned view is that we must move our belief that we are a) only sentient and b) only human out of the way.

Discovering the unobstructed kingdom of heaven or unconditioned Mind is the single eye of which Jesus spoke and of which Emerson and Blake write. This is the hard part of the journey to the Alpha Omega point of seeing, the giving up of the belief that we are bound to our duality-driven, sentient human imagination. We want our cake and eat it too. We want to see as God sees, not seeing two, but we don't want to do what we need to do in order to see our infinity as God sees Its Infinity, which is to give up our seeing two.

cousinbasil spoke of death as being not an end, but a transition. Do you see it this way as well? If you do, then if at the moment of your death you remain attached to your human imagination of dualism, seeing things from an oppositional point of view, here and there, up and down, right and wrong, good and evil, love and hate, etc., do you not see that it is to this world view that you will return? Contrary to what many people believe, we don't magically become enlightened to our infinite natures at death. We may be relieved of the burden of our senses, yes, but that doesn't change our core understanding of what or who we are. And yes, I know that no one knows for sure about 'what happens before/after death', but is this not the gift of reasoning 'the things of God?' Is it not of sound reasoning to conclude that:

a) Consciousness or Life cannot be annihilated. Which leads to the logical conclusion that

b) You, who is the interpreter of Consciousness, also cannot be annihilated. Which leads to the logical conclusion that

c) Whatever is your present I-definition will remain your present I-definition until you change it. Which leads to the logical conclusion that

c) If your mind is moving back and forth between the opposites of the human imagination, then your mind will remain moving back and forth between the opposites of the human imagination. Which leads to the logical conclusion that

d) If your mind continues moving back and forth between the opposites of the human imagination, that you will not be able to see with your Single Eye/I, the hidden aspect of the totality of your Universe

If what I say does not make logical sense to you, then can you tell me of your reasoning/understanding of how you will come to know the totality of You?
I require expansion.
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mental vagrant
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Re: Can people change?

Post by mental vagrant »

mental vagrant wrote:
movingalways wrote:
mental vagrant wrote:
movingalways wrote:mv, the piece of the puzzle that I believe you are not seeing is that regardless of how big the material universe is, regardless of what man believes is yet to discover in its vastness , is that the vast, material universe is in him. This is what is meant by the kingdom of heaven is within. The poets and mystics know this truth, the physicists are discovering this truth. I am sure you have encountered this stanza of William Blake's poem "To See A World":

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

To hold infinity in the palm of your hand means every form is in the Mind of God. You can't get more holistic than the singular-plural reality of IS.

Ralph Waldo Emerson:

"Though we soar into the heavens;
though we should sink into the abyss,
we never go out of ourselves,
it is always our own thoughts
that we perceive."

Can you not see the truth of these words?
We are the universe, some of it. Imagination. Doesn't define everything.
Now we're cooking with gas! Yes, imagination is some of it, and you are right, it doesn't define everything. It defines our sentience, no more, no less. But where you are mistaken is that we are indeed all of the universe; I remain steadfast in that knowledge. it is just that in order to discover the aspect of us that is unconditioned and therefore hidden to our conditioned view is that we must move our belief that we are a) only sentient and b) only human out of the way.

Discovering the unobstructed kingdom of heaven or unconditioned Mind is the single eye of which Jesus spoke and of which Emerson and Blake write. This is the hard part of the journey to the Alpha Omega point of seeing, the giving up of the belief that we are bound to our duality-driven, sentient human imagination. We want our cake and eat it too. We want to see as God sees, not seeing two, but we don't want to do what we need to do in order to see our infinity as God sees Its Infinity, which is to give up our seeing two.

cousinbasil spoke of death as being not an end, but a transition. Do you see it this way as well? If you do, then if at the moment of your death you remain attached to your human imagination of dualism, seeing things from an oppositional point of view, here and there, up and down, right and wrong, good and evil, love and hate, etc., do you not see that it is to this world view that you will return? Contrary to what many people believe, we don't magically become enlightened to our infinite natures at death. We may be relieved of the burden of our senses, yes, but that doesn't change our core understanding of what or who we are. And yes, I know that no one knows for sure about 'what happens before/after death', but is this not the gift of reasoning 'the things of God?' Is it not of sound reasoning to conclude that:

a) Consciousness or Life cannot be annihilated. Which leads to the logical conclusion that

b) You, who is the interpreter of Consciousness, also cannot be annihilated. Which leads to the logical conclusion that

c) Whatever is your present I-definition will remain your present I-definition until you change it. Which leads to the logical conclusion that

c) If your mind is moving back and forth between the opposites of the human imagination, then your mind will remain moving back and forth between the opposites of the human imagination. Which leads to the logical conclusion that

d) If your mind continues moving back and forth between the opposites of the human imagination, that you will not be able to see with your Single Eye/I, the hidden aspect of the totality of your Universe

If what I say does not make logical sense to you, then can you tell me of your reasoning/understanding of how you will come to know the totality of You?
I require expansion.
Ultimately, to me, this sounds like solopsism, empowering ones'self as god by defining everything as ourself, nothing exists untill i create it.
unbound
Pam Seeback
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Luke "Use the Force" Space is busily trying to improve his IQ number while Moving "Through Air" Always and Dennis "The Beatnik Bowery Boy" Mahar are ever-busily taking the opposite tack and dumbing down theirs .. who gets to their magic number first .. stay tuned. It doesn't get any better than this, only downhill to the grave.

PS - They all have recorded messages that they'll send here after they've entered the final destination. So they never really detatch from Genius Forum. Ain't we lucky?
Tomas, you clearly do not have an inkling of what I am saying.

As for improving one's IQ number, how is that a help to an individual's world if it is not done with the right wisdom and right intent? Most serious criminals have high IQ's. Many suicides have high IQ's. 'Having' a high IQ is no different than 'having' a new car. You can polish both up nice and shiny and show them off to your friends, but if they do nothing but serve your own narcissism, of what benefit are they to your liberation from suffering or to anyone else's liberation from suffering?

I have been at GF for several years and have yet to see you put forward your wisdom of how to end the suffering of man, all men, low and high IQ's included. You are willing to offer many opinions about what you think about people, mostly negative, this post included, but to me, this is gossip and is the antithesis of the wisdom of suffering liberation.

Also, it would be in the best interest regarding the development of your integrity to confront me directly with your opinions of me.

I am interested in hearing what you have you learned about making the world of man's thoughts a better place to inhabit. Go.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Consciousness or Life cannot be annihilated.
Assertion?
Assumption?
Evidence?
Pure reasoning.

Good grief, man, are you saying that you see any scenario where God or Life is actually Nothing?
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mental vagrant
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Re: Can people change?

Post by mental vagrant »

The conception of delusion is a delusion. A premise that is self contradictory, fits not, because of language constructs? Language is definitely a part of my universe and thusly valid because i am, thus i can only be right?

This is an intricate flaw.
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Pam Seeback
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Ultimately, to me, this sounds like solopsism, empowering ones'self as god by defining everything as ourself, nothing exists untill i create it.
What I am speaking of is the antithesis of solipsism.

I'll expand, statement by statement.

You said, suggesting I am being solipsistic: "empowering oneself as god"

I am speaking of being an individual unit of God's consciousness, of being in God's Mind, just as the bee and the tree and Tomas and Dennis and Alice are individual units of God's Consciousness. I see no power anywhere in the universe, and least of all in man's human consciousness. God speaks the Word and it is so. You are God's Word, I am God's Word. Can you see the difference between what I am saying and "empowering oneself as god?"

You said, suggesting I am being solipsistic: "by defining everything as ourself",

This is what we do, right here, right now. Can you climb inside another man's mind and KNOW his thoughts? "As a man thinkest, so is he; as a man continues to think, so he remains" is the principle of the law of the Spirit of life, aka, God, the Father, the Creator, the Maker, the Mastermind, the Architect, etc.

You said, suggesting I am being solipsistic: "nothing exists untill i create it."

This belief is the height of ego and is the complete opposite of what I am saying about man's place in Consciousness.

All things are already created. Man had nothing to do this creation because he is one of these created things. What man does do, and is purposed to do, however, is to be the interpreter or conscience of Consciousness. This is why Jesus calls man the "Son," either of Man, or of God. When we are the Son of Man, we are guided by the outer conscience of man's sentient driven morals and principles. When we are the Son of God, we are guided by the inner conscience of spirit's righteousness of all things to God are equal in height, depth, width and circumference. The Son of God shows no preference for form.

The Son of God abides in love. This abiding in love a) liberates him from his dualism and b) provides him with a foundation of Word that moves him in the world of all objects without producing more objects, the activity of projection. To end one's imagination is not to end one's life, it is to end one's projection of life.

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Acts 17:28
Pam Seeback
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

mental vagrant wrote:The conception of delusion is a delusion. A premise that is self contradictory, fits not, because of language constructs? Language is definitely a part of my universe and thusly valid because i am, thus i can only be right?

This is an intricate flaw.
No, not that you can only be right, but that only you can KNOW you.

This limitation is mostly overcome when man allows the language of myth and metaphor to be spoken. Poets know this secret. Joseph Campbell knew this secret. Spiritual seers know this secret. Look how Jesus spoke, how the Buddha spoke and how Lao Tzu spoke. They knew the language of "fire" and "water"; unfortunately, most around them believed they were speaking literally by way of their sentient intellect. Ergo, confusion and misinterpretation was the order of their day, and for one of them, crucifixion.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Pure reasoning.

Good grief, man, are you saying that you see any scenario where God or Life is actually Nothing?
we rely on reasoning and what shows up in reasoning.
is all that shows up in reasoning truthful.

Is what you said,
assertion?
assumption?
inference?
evidence?

the statement was:
Consciousness or Life cannot be annihilated.
You don't know and the rest of it is based on a don't know.

a Buddha has no conceptuality at all.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

we rely on reasoning and what shows up in reasoning.
is all that shows up in reasoning truthful.
Then those who rely on reasoning shall be eternally reasoning.

Was the reasoning of Hitler truthful?
You don't know and the rest of it is based on a don't know.

a Buddha has no conceptuality at all.
A Buddha who has attained final nirvana, yes. Until then, a concept is needed with which to define one's "I." For most Buddhists, as I understand it, the concept one rests their thinking upon until final nirvana is attained is compassion or infinite pity.

It goes beyond any reasoning or common sense or compassion to expect a sentient human being to have no concept or philosophy of "I." An awakened person knows that love or compassion or infinite pity is not found in Unconditioned Consciousness and that these are temporary concepts meant to express, as closely as possible, the nature of that which beyond all human definition.

Do you know anyone who has no conceptuality at all?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

There's an orange.
then there's a story about the orange.
the story isn't the orange.
the story is the story.

the orange is empty.
the story is empty.
the storyteller is empty.

end of story.
cousinbasil
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Re: Can people change?

Post by cousinbasil »

Dennis Mahar wrote:There's an orange.
then there's a story about the orange.
the story isn't the orange.
the story is the story.

the orange is empty.
the story is empty.
the storyteller is empty.

end of story.
If you are empty and all your stories are empty, could you save some disk space and stop posting the same meaninglessness over and over? I am reacting the way you intend - it logically can't be otherwise.
the orange is empty.
the story is empty.
the storyteller is empty.
But all the storyteller has to do is eat the orange, and you have a different story - he would no longer be empty...
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Tomas
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Tomas »

cousinbasil wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:There's an orange.
then there's a story about the orange.
the story isn't the orange.
the story is the story.

the orange is empty.
the story is empty.
the storyteller is empty.

end of story.
If you are empty and all your stories are empty, could you save some disk space and stop posting the same meaninglessness over and over? I am reacting the way you intend - it logically can't be otherwise.
the orange is empty.
the story is empty.
the storyteller is empty.
But all the storyteller has to do is eat the orange, and you have a different story - he would no longer be empty...
Very good, Basil.
Don't run to your death
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Your joke,
But all the storyteller has to do is eat the orange, and you have a different story - he would no longer be empty...
is funny. well done.
I've heard it before.
It does the rounds.

an orange has characteristics, properties, functions and is not self-established.
a story has characteristics, properties, functions and is not self-established.
a story-teller has characteristics, properties, functions and is not self-established.

You are empty, made of nothing.

It's hard to swallow.
what's eating you?

You think it's about 'entertaining the nephews'.
dial-a-joke.
with a little grammar correction thrown in.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

an orange has characteristics, properties, functions and is not self-established.
a story has characteristics, properties, functions and is not self-established.
a story-teller has characteristics, properties, functions and is not self-established.
Dennis' invisible structure and order of empty is revealed! Dennis' invisible blood and bones of the body of human meaninglessness is revealed! Dennis finally reveals the Unknown, Unseen Something of God/Life!

See Pam dance not-self-established happy's unknown, yet present, characteristics, properties and functions!
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What are you smokin' love.
Can I have some.
cousinbasil
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Re: Can people change?

Post by cousinbasil »

Dennis wrote:You think it's about 'entertaining the nephews'.
dial-a-joke.
with a little grammar correction thrown in.
It's only about the niece and nephews when they are around - and if I'm not mistaken, I think I said it is about them entertaining me.

I'd correct my own grammar. But she's dead.

Dial a joke indeed.
cousinbasil
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Re: Can people change?

Post by cousinbasil »

Dennis wrote:is funny. well done.
I've heard it before.
It does the rounds.
Obviously, if you have heard it before and it has "done the rounds," then what it is in response to must have done at least as many rounds... My whole point...
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Someone's throwing 'funny fish' to the clapping seal.
Barf, barf.
Tom foolery.

Do it meself.

Lift your game pal.
follow the bouncing ball when you're in my space.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:What are you smokin' love.
Can I have some.
I'm smoking relief and curiosity. Relief that you do indeed acknowledge Something in the Nothing, and curiosity that in many of our conversations you have correctly stated that form has no inherent existence, that is is not self-established, but to my knowledge, you have never stated that form has characteristics, properties and functions. I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am. To me, the addition of the 'spiritual fleshing out' of what is hidden in the emptiness or what I call the invisibility of form is critical to the understanding that form may not be self-established, but that it is indeed, Life-established.

If I am reading you right, and you do indeed acknowledge that form is Life-established, why then not focus on life-affirming language such as "you are Life-established" rather than on the more nihilistic mantra of “you are empty and meaningless?” To me, there is a huge awakening-potential difference between the two ways of languaging existence.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

plug one ear to give this a chance of sticking around.

empty vessels, empty river.
rollin' river.
cousinbasil
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Re: Can people change?

Post by cousinbasil »

Dennis wrote:Lift your game pal.
follow the bouncing ball when you're in my space.
Your space...?

When you've heard the same song eight hundred twenty-two times, you don't need a fucking bouncing ball.
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Tomas
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Tomas »

cousinbasil wrote:
Dennis wrote:Lift your game pal.
follow the bouncing ball when you're in my space.
Your space...?

When you've heard the same song eight hundred twenty-two times, you don't need a fucking bouncing ball.
Sweet! hahahah

Denny thinks it's his thread. It's Luke's...
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Re: Can people change?

Post by mental vagrant »

Luke's desire to learn has left quite an impression upon me. Go Luke!
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

My space is where I am.
If it's 'luke's space'.
what are you doing here?

Turf War?

make love not war.
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