Can people change?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dan Rowden »

Why? To what end?
cousinbasil
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Re: Can people change?

Post by cousinbasil »

Luke Space wrote:Is it possible to become a better thinker/speaker? How?

Sometimes I'll turn on the TV or radio and listen to a smart, well-educated person speaking, and I'll think to myself: "I want to be able to think and speak in this way!".
Chances are those same people did not spend too much time in front of a TV wanting to be like someone else. And if they did, why would anyone want to be like them? You have to start analyzing people's behavior - starting with your own. A pine cone could admire an oak tree all it wants but it will turn into the tree it was destined to be.
Lou Reed wrote:I wanna be black, have natural rhythm
Shoot twenty foot of jism too
and fuck up the jews
I wanna be black, I wanna be a panther
Have a girlfriend named Samantha
and have a stable of foxy whores
Oh, oh, I wanna be black
I don't wanna be a fucked up
middle class college student anymore
I just wanna have a stable of
foxy little whores
Yeah, yeah, I wanna be black
Oh, oh, I wanna be black
Yeah, yeah, I wanna be black
I wanna be black, wanna be like Martin Luther King
And get myself shot in the spring
And lead a whole generation, too
and fuck up the jews
I wanna be black, I wanna be like Malcolm X
And cast a hex
over President Kennedy's tomb
and have a big prick, too
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Matt Gregory
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Matt Gregory »

Luke Space wrote:I've been reading almost everyday for the past few days. It hasn't really changed me in any noticeable way.
Luke, man, you are seriously cracking me up.
The things you experience in the "outer world" are really just ideas in your head. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.
I'm still having trouble with this. There's still a clear distinction between the outside world and the inner world. For instance, close your eyes - just for a moment - and picture a river flowing and a park on each side with people playing and going about their business. This type of imagining is the inner world. Now, open your eyes and look around you - no thinking, just looking - this is what I call the outer world. The two seem to mesh together nicely.
There's really no such thing as "no thinking" in the manner you describe. If you are perceiving things, then thoughts are happening. "Thing" is a thought. "Existence" is a thought. "Time" is a thought. All thoughts.

Many of our thoughts are not constructed consciously. Most people get so confused because of this. They think only of the inner dialog and visualizations and things that seem under their control as thoughts, and the things perceived through the senses not as thoughts, but as direct connections to reality. But the inner world is not under our control, nor are the things we perceive direct connections to reality. Both of these beliefs are false.

I wrote something down...

Our senses are limited just like an x-ray machine is limited. It sees through skin, muscle, and other organs, and looks at the bone. But does this mean that the skin, muscle, and other organs, don't exist? I think the same can be true for boundaries. Their existence depends on our perspective. It appears to us. How can we go beyond this?
Perceptions can't go beyond it, but reason can.
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jupiviv
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Re: Can people change?

Post by jupiviv »

@Luke, I can relate to the obsession with IQ tests. I remember when I was 16 I used to spend almost all my time on the internet doing online IQ tests. Then one day I scored very high on a mensa-based test which analysed me as a "genius", and that was the end of my obsession. All I really wanted was to see my computer calling me a genius - that's all my high IQ meant. Do you understand what I am saying?

Enlightenment has almost nothing to do with a high IQ. If you want to know how you can become enlightened, then a good way to start is by reading the book Matt Gregory posted.
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Luke Space
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Luke Space »

Me wrote:Is it possible to become a better thinker/speaker? How?

Sometimes I'll turn on the TV or radio and listen to a smart, well-educated person speaking, and I'll think to myself: "I want to be able to think and speak in this way!".
Dan Rowden wrote:Why? To what end?
I want to be more intelligent and I want to appear as such. To want end? Perhaps until I'm satisfied with myself. But really, there is no end, I just want to keep getting better and better. And of course, I'd like to see the results/fruits of this endeavor.
cousinbasil wrote:Chances are those same people did not spend too much time in front of a TV wanting to be like someone else. And if they did, why would anyone want to be like them? You have to start analyzing people's behavior - starting with your own. A pine cone could admire an oak tree all it wants but it will turn into the tree it was destined to be.
I believe I'm in-charge of my own destiny. I can chose to be whatever it is I'd like to be. A philosopher, a lawyer, a doctor, a physicist, etc. All that required is: hard work, time, and patience!
Me wrote:I've been reading almost everyday for the past few days. It hasn't really changed me in any noticeable way.
Matt Gregory wrote:Luke, man, you are seriously cracking me up.
:-)

Seriously though, I'm sure that studying all day long, everyday, can change a person for the better, no? I just haven't put enough time and effort into it.
There's really no such thing as "no thinking" in the manner you describe. If you are perceiving things, then thoughts are happening. "Thing" is a thought. "Existence" is a thought. "Time" is a thought. All thoughts.
I get it. But what if I'm just observing and not thinking about anything. Is observing still thinking? For instance, a moment ago I looked at my window blinds and I perceived no thought. I didn't even have "these are window blinds" running through my mind. It was just an object and me and I felt totally at peace. Thoughts still come in and out of my consciousness but there are moments in which there is no thought, only observation.

How do you explain this?

(By the way, how do you post a quote within a quote?)
Many of our thoughts are not constructed consciously. Most people get so confused because of this. They think only of the inner dialog and visualizations and things that seem under their control as thoughts, and the things perceived through the senses not as thoughts, but as direct connections to reality. But the inner world is not under our control, nor are the things we perceive direct connections to reality. Both of these beliefs are false.
By "thought" I meant something that we're conscious of. If we're not conscious of it then it's not a thought, it's something else.
Me wrote:I wrote something down...

Our senses are limited just like an x-ray machine is limited. It sees through skin, muscle, and other organs, and looks at the bone. But does this mean that the skin, muscle, and other organs, don't exist? I think the same can be true for boundaries. Their existence depends on our perspective. It appears to us. How can we go beyond this?
Perceptions can't go beyond it, but reason can.
Reason can be applied in many different ways. How do you know whether it's correct? For instance:

Oranges have grown large this season
Oranges have grown small this season

It's either one or the other, right? Well, both could be true. We don't know the specifics to know but we can certainly make two opposing statements true. For example, this tree produced both small and large oranges.

I'm not sure if that makes sense.
jupiviv wrote:@Luke, I can relate to the obsession with IQ tests.
I'm not obsessed with IQ tests. I've only taken one real IQ test in high school and scored 118. I've also taken a few online IQ tests, scored much higher (130's and 140's), but I later learned that these don't count. Oh well.
Enlightenment has almost nothing to do with a high IQ. If you want to know how you can become enlightened, then a good way to start is by reading the book Matt Gregory posted.
I've already read that book. That reminds me: maybe I am enlightened? That is to say, my thinking seems to be free from delusions. I don't experience delusions anymore, only uncertainties and probabilities.

Cheers!
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Re: Can people change?

Post by cousinbasil »

I don't experience delusions anymore, only uncertainties and probabilities.
Good place to be.
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Tomas
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Tomas »

Luke Space wrote:What does IQ mean to you?
Look, pal. When you were tested for IQ, was that at university, high school, junior high?

I'm assuming this was at a government (public) school?

If you have the extra cash, be tested again. Get plenty of rest and eat right for a few days beforehand. Above all else, avoid the computer for those few days. Give the body mind and soul a break from the artificial 'intelligence' the world throws you way.

118 is nothing to sniff at.

Take the telepromptor away from Barack Obama and you have little more than George Bush talking. Really. Those bums are mid-90s. Much like Bill Clinton, he's still the average 104-IQ don't believe that 170 IQ nonsense.

Stutter, stutter, bah blah bla.

.
Don't run to your death
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Matt Gregory
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Matt Gregory »

Luke Space wrote:
Matt wrote:There's really no such thing as "no thinking" in the manner you describe. If you are perceiving things, then thoughts are happening. "Thing" is a thought. "Existence" is a thought. "Time" is a thought. All thoughts.
I get it. But what if I'm just observing and not thinking about anything. Is observing still thinking? For instance, a moment ago I looked at my window blinds and I perceived no thought. I didn't even have "these are window blinds" running through my mind. It was just an object and me and I felt totally at peace. Thoughts still come in and out of my consciousness but there are moments in which there is no thought, only observation.

How do you explain this?
Our minds have evolved to do things subconsciously so that the conscious mind doesn't have to deal with so much stuff all the time. This is one of our greatest tools for dealing with complexity. A lot of the things done by our subconscious mind are so deeply ingrained that we don't even know that we're doing them. This not only happens with things like muscle coordination while we're walking, but also with our thoughts and beliefs. When you're sitting and staring, passively thinking, your subconscious mind is at work storing information that is coming in through your senses. That's a behavior we learned that when we were very young. A big part of it is organizing sense data into abstractions that we call "objects". Most people have no idea that they are doing this. We've all done it so much that we can do it subconsciously.

Luke wrote:(By the way, how do you post a quote within a quote?)
You use quote tags within quote tags. Hit the Quote button twice in a row when you're writing a message to see what I mean.

Luke wrote:
Matt wrote:Many of our thoughts are not constructed consciously. Most people get so confused because of this. They think only of the inner dialog and visualizations and things that seem under their control as thoughts, and the things perceived through the senses not as thoughts, but as direct connections to reality. But the inner world is not under our control, nor are the things we perceive direct connections to reality. Both of these beliefs are false.
By "thought" I meant something that we're conscious of. If we're not conscious of it then it's not a thought, it's something else.
I've been using the word "thought" to mean the stuff that the mind works with because I want to explain why no-thinking and being awake are incompatible. If you were truly not thinking, you would be unconsciousness and unable to remember anything. My whole goal here is to point out that there are many things happening in the mind that we're dimly aware of, and it's very good for wisdom to develop the ability to bring these things into consciousness whenever you want because a lot of them are impediments to clear and truthful thinking.

Luke wrote:
Matt wrote:
Luke wrote:I wrote something down...

Our senses are limited just like an x-ray machine is limited. It sees through skin, muscle, and other organs, and looks at the bone. But does this mean that the skin, muscle, and other organs, don't exist? I think the same can be true for boundaries. Their existence depends on our perspective. It appears to us. How can we go beyond this?
Perceptions can't go beyond it, but reason can.
Reason can be applied in many different ways. How do you know whether it's correct? For instance:

Oranges have grown large this season
Oranges have grown small this season

It's either one or the other, right? Well, both could be true. We don't know the specifics to know but we can certainly make two opposing statements true. For example, this tree produced both small and large oranges.

I'm not sure if that makes sense.
If you're reasoning about observations and things based on sense data, then it's always uncertain. You just have to do your best with the information that's available to you in order to assess whether it's correct or not. But when you reason purely from mind-stuff, from your own definitions, then you can actually achieve certainty. A good first step to enlightenment is figuring out what you can know with certainty and what you can't.
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mental vagrant
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Re: Can people change?

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Forgive me if blunt but this conversation sounds to my eye asenine. Just speaking of "enlightenment" as if weren't a delusion it's self is ignominious. What application has exposed any persons capacity for truth, allowing them discernment between reality in its many fashions. Does an ability to exploit nature more equate to deeper understanding, a reference for measurement in overall change? (whatever that mgiht be, assuming any two or more people can agree). The very nature of neuroplasticity that cognitive neuroscience is exposing suggests such notions of unified progression a farce, may be impossible. Though i appreciate the considerations given to perceptual augmentation through experience, a reciprocal.

For Luke - if you want to change you won't talk about it. You will do it, if it is going to happen you'll learn by learning. No one has answers, everyone is a moron.
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Luke Space
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Luke Space »

I start my quest to become an enlightened genius on the 1st day of the New Year (2012). Until then, I'll plan how I'm going to accomplish this goal (or these goals) by gathering interesting books, reading up on how to learn more effectively, coming on here and getting advice from people smarter than I, etc. I think this is something that's doable with the right tools and mindset. I hope my mind will greatly evolve during this process. Albeit I don't expect it to be easy or to happen overnight. I'll give it at least 5 years. By then I'll be 30!

I've had this question enter my mind in the past: what is truth? My answer: truth is whatever is proven to be correct. Under experimentation, for instance. But I also think that truth is beyond (beyond? - I'm not sure if this is the right word to use here) perception. That is, it's there and true no matter what. Whether there is a mind to perceive it or not. However, there has to be a mind to perceive it or else it's not known and remains hidden. There are probably an infinite number of truths out there and within us all.

What do you think of my answer? How would you answer this question of what is truth?

Also, I understand how there's no freewill and how everything happens the way it's meant to happen but how would you prove this to someone? I've debated with my dad how he doesn't really have a choice (ultimately!) in anything he does but I couldn't convince him of this fact. For instance, he picked up his glass of tea and said "I chose to pick this glass up and drink from it" to which I replied "but you were thirsty, weren't you?". It's simple yet some people don't understand. Even people who are smarter than I don't always understand. It's baffling as to why.

One more thing, I want to know why the philosophy in some books is written in a very complicated way, with big words and concepts etc. Can these truths only be understood if you're familiar with the jargon used? It just seems like people like to overly complicate matters. Why do they do this, I wonder. Anyway, I'll probably become one of them, if all goes well with my said quest etc.

These are just things which have recently been on my mind. Thanks for taking the time to explore this with me!
I wrote:(By the way, how do you post a quote within a quote?)
Matt Gregory wrote:You use quote tags within quote tags. Hit the Quote button twice in a row when you're writing a message to see what I mean.
Thanks!
Tomas wrote:Look, pal. When you were tested for IQ, was that at university, high school, junior high?

I'm assuming this was at a government (public) school?
Yes, in high school.
If you have the extra cash, be tested again. Get plenty of rest and eat right for a few days beforehand. Above all else, avoid the computer for those few days. Give the body mind and soul a break from the artificial 'intelligence' the world throws you way.
I've thought about doing this but I probably wouldn't go through with it because what if it turned out that my IQ is lower than what it was? In that case, I'd rather not know. I developed schizophrenia 5 years ago and I think it may have lowered my IQ according to things I've read on the Internet and how I currently am. Plus I feel like I've been dumbed down by this illness, or if not this illness, then by the medications that I've been on for almost 3 years.
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Tomas
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Tomas »

Luke Space wrote:
Tomas wrote:Look, pal. When you were tested for IQ, was that at university, high school, junior high?

I'm assuming this was at a government (public) school?
Yes, in high school.
If you have the extra cash, be tested again. Get plenty of rest and eat right for a few days beforehand. Above all else, avoid the computer for those few days. Give the body mind and soul a break from the artificial 'intelligence' the world throws your way.
I've thought about doing this but I probably wouldn't go through with it because what if it turned out that my IQ is lower than what it was? In that case, I'd rather not know. I developed schizophrenia 5 years ago and I think it may have lowered my IQ according to things I've read on the Internet and how I currently am. Plus I feel like I've been dumbed down by this illness, or if not this illness, then by the medications that I've been on for almost 3 years.
I'm not understanding why it would matter if one's IQ came in a bit lower than it was before. No need to become worked up about what scale you (we) are at when all the high school was doing was testing you according to what the perceived norm was. The average IQ is essentially, 100 IQ. I've known straight-A students who turned out to real-life losers in "real life". There's still this one dude (in his late 40s) working at Burger King flippin' burgers. However, he likes what he does and for him (you know, who's to judge) it pays the property taxes, utilities, etc. on his house that was paid for ages ago. Drives a 10 year old automobile, he married late, has a lovely wife (who works and makes more money than him), three kids who are well mannered. His is a "life of riley".

My IQ is somewhere around 147-149, I'd have to ask a buddy in the school system to check out my tests but it doesn't matter in the long run. I, too, have taken tests thereafter, the Army in 1970 tested me and it came back something around 155 but it proves nothing in the long run of things because I'm still gonna do what I want with my life the government system be damned.

I only answer to my darling wife and our last child still at home.

I'd urge you to take an IQ test only to ground yourself to Reality. Know where you are and then, leave it all behind you and start fresh with what time you have left on this earth. Be positive, my friend.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by rexdsouza »

Nice stuff..
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mental vagrant
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Re: Can people change?

Post by mental vagrant »

He speaks sense.
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Matt Gregory
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Matt Gregory »

Luke Space wrote:I start my quest to become an enlightened genius on the 1st day of the New Year (2012). Until then, I'll plan how I'm going to accomplish this goal (or these goals) by gathering interesting books, reading up on how to learn more effectively, coming on here and getting advice from people smarter than I, etc. I think this is something that's doable with the right tools and mindset. I hope my mind will greatly evolve during this process. Albeit I don't expect it to be easy or to happen overnight. I'll give it at least 5 years. By then I'll be 30!
You're young! Good luck with everything!

I've had this question enter my mind in the past: what is truth? My answer: truth is whatever is proven to be correct. Under experimentation, for instance. But I also think that truth is beyond (beyond? - I'm not sure if this is the right word to use here) perception. That is, it's there and true no matter what. Whether there is a mind to perceive it or not. However, there has to be a mind to perceive it or else it's not known and remains hidden. There are probably an infinite number of truths out there and within us all.

What do you think of my answer? How would you answer this question of what is truth?
It's pretty good! I'm not going to answer because I think it's important to keep an open mind about what truth is. A few years ago I had a revelation. I had been studying philosophy and pursuing enlightenment for a number of years already and I was learning a lot of book knowledge, but I was really getting frustrated with my lack of progress. I finally realized that I just didn't know jack shit about truth or enlightenment. I was completely clueless about the heart of it all and, although I didn't like this idea, I convinced myself to accept it. That's when I started making really fast progress. So study and read a lot, but just keep in mind that direct knowledge of truth is all or nothing. You either know it in its entirety or you don't know shit.

Also, I understand how there's no freewill and how everything happens the way it's meant to happen but how would you prove this to someone? I've debated with my dad how he doesn't really have a choice (ultimately!) in anything he does but I couldn't convince him of this fact. For instance, he picked up his glass of tea and said "I chose to pick this glass up and drink from it" to which I replied "but you were thirsty, weren't you?". It's simple yet some people don't understand. Even people who are smarter than I don't always understand. It's baffling as to why.
Yeah, I used to have the same kinds of conversations with my dad. I wouldn't worry about enlightening others until you enlighten yourself. If you can't enlighten yourself, you won't be able to enlighten others. And even if you can enlighten yourself, the sad truth is that most people are just incapable of becoming enlightened.

One more thing, I want to know why the philosophy in some books is written in a very complicated way, with big words and concepts etc. Can these truths only be understood if you're familiar with the jargon used? It just seems like people like to overly complicate matters. Why do they do this, I wonder. Anyway, I'll probably become one of them, if all goes well with my said quest etc.
People who read a lot are more comfortable with words, so they tend to write in a more complicated style and they just don't make any effort to simplify it. A lot of people are just insecure about their intelligence, so they write in a complicated way to show off.

I developed schizophrenia 5 years ago and I think it may have lowered my IQ according to things I've read on the Internet and how I currently am. Plus I feel like I've been dumbed down by this illness, or if not this illness, then by the medications that I've been on for almost 3 years.
Nah, I don't think you're dumb, if I can accurately judge by what little I've read of your writing. My general impression of you is that your mind has a lot of energy, which is fantastic! Dumb people are lacking in that area. But maybe you just haven't mastered control of it yet. Maybe your mind moves too fast. It looks at a lot of things, but it doesn't look at a single thing long enough to penetrate it and get a deeper understanding of it. It's just a matter of training your mind to slow down, so you can harness more of its power and direct it towards truth. Concentration is a good skill to have.
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Luke Space
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Luke Space »

Tomas wrote:My IQ is somewhere around 147-149, I'd have to ask a buddy in the school system to check out my tests but it doesn't matter in the long run. I, too, have taken tests thereafter, the Army in 1970 tested me and it came back something around 155 but it proves nothing in the long run of things because I'm still gonna do what I want with my life the government system be damned.
Wow, that's amazing! I wish my IQ was as high. I've heard it being said that hard work is what counts and IQ doesn't matter as much but I think a high IQ has an advantage. Am I right? I mean, a high IQ person can become a bum on the street while a low IQ person can succeed but that's probably because of other factors like the hard work factor.

Anyway, if you find out a proven way for someone to increase their IQ, let me know. As you say, it doesn't matter in the long run (because we're all gonna be dead?) but I like to think that high IQ people tend to be successful as long as their not lazy or as long as other things don't get in the way. Speaking of which, have you put that high IQ to good use, Tomas?
I'd urge you to take an IQ test only to ground yourself to Reality. Know where you are and then, leave it all behind you and start fresh with what time you have left on this earth. Be positive, my friend.
Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.
Matt Gregory wrote:You're young! Good luck with everything!
Thank you! I have high hopes that my life will definitely change for the better as soon as I start my studies.
A few years ago I had a revelation. I had been studying philosophy and pursuing enlightenment for a number of years already and I was learning a lot of book knowledge, but I was really getting frustrated with my lack of progress. I finally realized that I just didn't know jack shit about truth or enlightenment. I was completely clueless about the heart of it all and, although I didn't like this idea, I convinced myself to accept it. That's when I started making really fast progress. So study and read a lot, but just keep in mind that direct knowledge of truth is all or nothing. You either know it in its entirety or you don't know shit.
Interesting. What changed after you accepted that you didn't know much about truth and enlightenment? I'm sure all that studying you did beforehand helped.
Nah, I don't think you're dumb, if I can accurately judge by what little I've read of your writing.
Thanks, but I think I'm in between dumb and smart. There's definitely room for growth, though.
My general impression of you is that your mind has a lot of energy, which is fantastic! Dumb people are lacking in that area. But maybe you just haven't mastered control of it yet. Maybe your mind moves too fast. It looks at a lot of things, but it doesn't look at a single thing long enough to penetrate it and get a deeper understanding of it. It's just a matter of training your mind to slow down, so you can harness more of its power and direct it towards truth. Concentration is a good skill to have.
I don't know how you picked up on that. Yeah, my mind pretty much races all the time. Goes from one thought to another and to another etc as if in search of truth or something. Anyway, a big part of this I'm told is the illness. It gets much worse if I'm not taking my meds.

Thank you so much for all the responses. They're very encouraging and helpful.
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Matt Gregory
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Matt Gregory »

Matt Gregory wrote:You're young! Good luck with everything!
Thank you! I have high hopes that my life will definitely change for the better as soon as I start my studies.
Heh, maybe! It definitely will if you stick with it! Jumping into a new field of knowledge is very confusing at first, so don't let it get to you.

A few years ago I had a revelation. I had been studying philosophy and pursuing enlightenment for a number of years already and I was learning a lot of book knowledge, but I was really getting frustrated with my lack of progress. I finally realized that I just didn't know jack shit about truth or enlightenment. I was completely clueless about the heart of it all and, although I didn't like this idea, I convinced myself to accept it. That's when I started making really fast progress. So study and read a lot, but just keep in mind that direct knowledge of truth is all or nothing. You either know it in its entirety or you don't know shit.
Interesting. What changed after you accepted that you didn't know much about truth and enlightenment? I'm sure all that studying you did beforehand helped.
I really don't know, but what I think is that the reading helped, but it has side-effects. Namely, all this time spent studying is an investment, so we get attached to it and link our identity to it. "I'm a philosopher!", "I'm well-read!", "I study a lot and have become very intelligent!", blah blah blah. This is an easy trap to get stuck in. What changed is that I squirmed out of the trap, but once I got some genuine insight, I fell right into another trap. They're all over the place. The ego is very cunning will deceive your rational mind ruthlessly.

My general impression of you is that your mind has a lot of energy, which is fantastic! Dumb people are lacking in that area. But maybe you just haven't mastered control of it yet. Maybe your mind moves too fast. It looks at a lot of things, but it doesn't look at a single thing long enough to penetrate it and get a deeper understanding of it. It's just a matter of training your mind to slow down, so you can harness more of its power and direct it towards truth. Concentration is a good skill to have.
I don't know how you picked up on that.
Well, I didn't really "pick up on it" per se. I don't know much about schizophrenia, but everybody's mind jumps around to some degree. It's totally natural, so don't beat yourself up over it. Where there's energy, it has to be expended somehow.

When I was 25, I had a hard time concentrating. Actually, I could concentrate, but only on things I was interested in. Like video games. I could concentrate on video games for days. Reading, not so much. It would put me right to sleep.

I just forced myself to read day after day. I would read each paragraph ten times and then when I finished the book I would start over at page 1 and read it again. I wouldn't read a lot, just a few pages at a time, but it would add up and it helped me think a lot. The goal is not to read, but to think.

Thank you so much for all the responses. They're very encouraging and helpful.
You're welcome!
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Luke Space
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Luke Space »

Matt Gregory wrote:Jumping into a new field of knowledge is very confusing at first, so don't let it get to you.
Yeah, I know. I started once before and only spent about a day or two on it and gave up because I thought I wasn't really learning anything. At the time I was trying to learn Assembly (it's a computer programming language) and human anatomy. Basically, I tried to run before I could walk, if that's a good way of putting it.

You see, if I spend all day reading something I'd like to be able to retain a large amount of the information if not all of it. Just like Will Hunting did in that movie Good Will Hunting. Have you seen it? Basically, it's about a brilliant genius who lives life as if he doesn't have this special gift. In one scene he was able to recall information from a history book word for word and the page number. I know this is a fictional movie but I'm sure there are people like this in the world. Now if only there was a way to train one's memory to do this...
I really don't know, but what I think is that the reading helped, but it has side-effects. Namely, all this time spent studying is an investment, so we get attached to it and link our identity to it. "I'm a philosopher!", "I'm well-read!", "I study a lot and have become very intelligent!", blah blah blah. This is an easy trap to get stuck in. What changed is that I squirmed out of the trap, but once I got some genuine insight, I fell right into another trap. They're all over the place.
Wouldn't seeing results of your hard work (becoming more intelligent etc) make you happy and eager to continue? I don't see a problem with this.
The ego is very cunning will deceive your rational mind ruthlessly.
Can't the ego work with the rational mind? By the way, what do you mean by ego? By some definition the ego doesn't seem like a bad thing. I mean, without an ego I probably wouldn't be motivated to change myself. I'd accept everything as it is.
When I was 25, I had a hard time concentrating. Actually, I could concentrate, but only on things I was interested in. Like video games. I could concentrate on video games for days. Reading, not so much. It would put me right to sleep.
Hah, I still play on my ps3. Got 3 new games which I still haven't played, though. If you don't mind me asking: how old are you?

Life changes people. But I'm interested in knowing what causes that change. I have a feeling you stopped playing video games. Am I right? Did you loss interest and move on to better things? What caused this change to occur? Tell me about it.
I just forced myself to read day after day. I would read each paragraph ten times and then when I finished the book I would start over at page 1 and read it again. I wouldn't read a lot, just a few pages at a time, but it would add up and it helped me think a lot. The goal is not to read, but to think.
Good advice. I too am going to read something - especially new difficult-to-understand information - as many times as it takes for me to understand it. As far as I'm concerned, there's really no such thing as not being able to understand something. Everything that has been understood, can be understood.

I hope you're not tired of my questions. I like reading your responses.
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Blair
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Blair »

Luke Space wrote: I know this is a fictional movie but I'm sure there are people like this in the world.
There are; they would also be classified as severely autistic and socially impaired, not like the character of Will Hunting.
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Luke Space
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Luke Space »

I wasn't talking about people like Kim Peak. I was talking about people exactly like the Will Hunting character, no less. I believe there are people like this in the real world whom (am I using "whom" properly?) aren't a savant or mentally challenged. Possible?
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mental vagrant
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Re: Can people change?

Post by mental vagrant »

Most are savant prodigies. Danielle Tammet, William Sidis, Rudiger Gamm and Ted Kacyinski all come to mind when citing this hyper rare condition; they are all ill in different ways. Will Hunting was supposed to be William Sidis i think, who learn't somthing in the order of 45 languages (don't quote me).
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Luke Space »

Does such a great ability arise from the disability or is it the other way around? Could someone who isn't mentally challenged to begin with become mentally challenged because they decided to develop a special ability like eidetic memory (if that's possible) or learning dozens upon dozens of languages? Is it possible to overload your memory with information or to overly stimulate your brain (not with drugs, naturally I mean)?

By the way, regarding the topic of schizophrenia or mental illness in general, is it possible that there may not be anything physically wrong with the brain of some of these people, rather it may be a purely psychological problem, fixable by training the mind to perhaps think/function properly/differently? Sort of like a computer with bad software will not run properly unless you rewrite it. Maybe the same thing can be true with the mind.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by mental vagrant »

Have you met a schizophrenic off it's medication?
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Luke Space »

Yes.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Luke Space »

If enlightenment is consciousness without delusion then according to that definition I think I might be enlightened.

Question for ya: how does one know whether they really are enlightened or not?
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Blair »

Ask yourself the question, why do humans breed?

If you can give yourself the answer to that question, without emotion or attachment to any aspect of existence, you are enlightened.
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