Why causality is an illusion

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:39 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:Pam,

Can you not see the contradiction of following the teachings of a man who declares reasoning to be the error, and then, coming to the conclusion that the definition of freedom is to arrive at the awareness of feeling-logic?


No contradiction.
Reasoning to a point,
then,
'enter with the suddeness of a knife thrust.'
it's what happens,
sudden breakthrough.

Huang Po is still laying a track of reasons,
the tracker is being made cognizant of,
then,
Pow!
there are no reasons, what reasons do you need to be sure.


Exactly! Reasoning to a point, and then, the suddenness of a knife thrust that takes you into the silent realm of invisible forms of Life where reasoning cannot enter. Where you realize that your search for causes, for a cause, was because you were searching from the perspective of being an effect!

This sudden satori of the knife thrust that reveals the invisibility of "you" is not, however, the arrival at an enlightened state, because this eureka moment of the reasoning mind being "sliced away" cannot be sustained. Rather, it is but the beginning of the death of the reasoning mind. Only by holding to the truth of this sudden satori, is one able to gradually surrender their attachment to the effect of their own making, that of their own dual, reasoning mind. Precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little is the reasoning mind transcended.
User avatar
movingalways
 
Posts: 1754
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Sphere70 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:57 am

David Quinn wrote:
Sphere70 wrote:
They are NOT an invitation for irrational people to shut down their brains.

This is a very ignorant statement. I'm sure Huang Po would slap you for this.

For what reason?

-


First of all, to use thought to realize the boundaries of thought (in terms of Enlightenment) is not the last step, its an intermediate step if anything. And this is basically what thought is good for in this field (other then to shape communication when desirable).
Also, you seem to have a very limited scope on the width and effect of the carpet of thought in general, irrational or not, on the trans-formative "silence" which thought conceals. And to say something like "NOT an invitation for irrational people to shut down their brains" (like that is even a possibility) is also deluded. It further points to a shallowness of equating the non-conceptual space with "switching of the cerebral cortex". It's quite laughable, indeed, and reminds me, if anything, of Jacob Bronowskis tired outlash on Zen and its " dangerous irrationalities" in these "important days of science".

Read and weep:

Huang Po:

Discuss it as you may, how can you even hope to approach the truth through words? Nor can it be perceived either subjectively or objectively. So full understanding can come to you only through an inexpressible mystery. The approach to it is called the Gateway of the Stillness beyond all Activity. If you wish to understand, know that a sudden comprehension comes when the mind has been purged of all the clutter of conceptual and discriminatory thought-activity. Those who seek the truth by means of intellect and learning only get further and further away from it. Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.

But please, find a way to bend it towards your attachment to thought - there is always a way!
Sphere70
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:18 am
Location: New York

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:55 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:Kunga,
Thank you Dennis for wanting to comfort me.
I can't say I really am fearful...I don't feel fear.
I just want to know the truth...


I get you.
You are concerned for others.
You care.
It's magnificent of you.
I celebrate you forever. thankyou.

I want you to confirm for me please.
Or am I nuts?
Is there any phenomena that has inherent existence?
Is there a stunning absence of inherent existence in all phenomena?
On the question,
how do things exist?,
are there not,
causes/conditions, pieces/parts?
Is it not true,
that all phenomena that arises depends for its existence on such?

Is it not true that all phenomena are different and the same?

If you can confirm for me this track of reasoning,
then I can safely conclude,
non-duality.
all is One, expressing as many.

If I got that,
how could I be apathetic?
How could I not fill with wonder and amazement?




"Is there any phenomena that has inherent existence " ?



How to we really know ? We hang on to what we see as emptiness...as the Ultimate Truth....what happens when we let go of what we think we know ?

Does THE ONE MIND (CONSCIOUSNESS) have inherent existence ?
User avatar
Kunga
 
Posts: 2304
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:17 am

Blair wrote:
Kunga wrote:I guess when you are a Buddha you stop fighting for survival ?


Five year old child languishes in agony from third degree burns.

Church against stem cell treatment.

You figure it out..



The Church has an image to protect.
It has burned people at the stake for revealing the truth.
It dosn't recognize God as being everything and everyone (in stem cells to help others )
The Church dosn't want to give power to scientists.
User avatar
Kunga
 
Posts: 2304
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:11 am

movingalways wrote:Kunga,

I guess when you are a Buddha you stop fighting for survival ?


Yes. The desire to survive is at the heart of ignorance, and of all of man's suffering. There is no doubt about it, the rational mind is the best vehicle for wise effects or elemental management, but deeper wisdom [the wisdom the rational mind, out of fear for its survival, rejects] reveals that the rational mind is itself an effect, which makes the rational mind a an effect interpreting effects. This is where the fight for survival exists, in this error of believing the rational mind is the seat of truth. The ignorance of this belief is so entrenched, so deep, that when a Buddha or a Christ comes along and points out that the rational mind is, and never will be, the seat of Ultimate Reality, that individual is ignored or mocked. Why? Because the rational mind is in terror of its own death. Which is, itself an irrational belief, because it knows that it is born to die. This fear is understandable, and arouses compassion in the Buddha or Christ, but it does not change the truth the Buddha and the Christ brings, the truth of that which is not born and does not die, the truth of Nirvana or Pure Spirit Consciousness.



Yes...it is comforting to know we are Ultimately, and endlessly all eternity....isn't this also conceptual/ration thinking ?
Could this also be a trick of our ego to survive ?

Why was it so important then for Christ/God/Moses to say " THOU SHALL NOT KILL"
AND in Buddhism it is also looked down upon as wrong to kill (a basic precept in the Eight Fold Path)

To keep life living and to sustain life is important/vital in Christianity & Buddhism.
To defend oneself is acceptable behavior.
Suicide is not condoned either.

I think Buddhas are hardwired to survive.
Buddha is reportedly still around (in Tushita Heaven)
Christ has arisen from the dead & supposedly will come again here.....

But maybe what you are saying ....when you are this thing that has no begining
and no end...you KNOW there is no such thing as death....
and so you have no fear of death
and stop fighting to survive
because you no longer think rational....lol
You have trancended rationality ! lol

Only the ego is rational/logical.

The MIND of The Ultimate Reality is brainless !

lol
User avatar
Kunga
 
Posts: 2304
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby GodsDaughter1 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:21 am

Why causality is an illusion

When Stephen Hawkins speaks people listen because he is a man of substance--one who holds believable thought! He says that there is no Time or Space in the Black Hole, that a clock would stop in there.

There is no energy in the black hole, there is no beginning and no end, there is not even space in there, it is believable that this is truth.

Hawkins says there is no God, and there never was. I didn't see this part so I can't repeat it.

Ques: Cause and effect is causality, what caused the earth, what are earths effects?

Ans: Unknown and earths effects are storms, earthquakes, tssunni's, etc.

Ques: Could the earth have been created by exploding stars?

Ans: Who knows?

Ques: Is the sun inside or outside of our earth? Stupid question yes or no?

Ans: The only stupid question is the one not asked!
GodsDaughter1
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:12 am

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:37 am

Pam,

This sudden satori of the knife thrust that reveals the invisibility of "you" is not, however, the arrival at an enlightened state, because this eureka moment of the reasoning mind being "sliced away" cannot be sustained. Rather, it is but the beginning of the death of the reasoning mind.


There is still a sense of self.
just not a sense of separate self.
Living with emptiness grants an environment for self to live in,
a spaciosness,
a freedom to be.
Living with emptiness is a relinquishing of opinion.
opinions are barriers to freely responding.

The separate self attachment has it mocked up as a fixed idea in a world of fixed things.
me,
my life,
my body,
my kids,
my house,
my community,
my nation.

truly,
me doesn't own anything.
me doesn't even own me.
me depends for its existence.

it's misunderstood that living with emptiness means annihilation of self (see how the word nihilist comes out of annihilation).

living with emptiness doesn't get you nothing.
it gets you everything.

because you get everything,
you get who you really are,
empathy, compassion.

the sense of separate self gets harm/conflict.

living with emptiness as the environment one operates in for oneself is expressed as the necessary gateway for enlightenment.

emptiness isn't a belief, scripture, dogma, winning formula, opinion to attach to...
it's a grok.

looks like we're on the same page Pam.
Dennis Mahar
 
Posts: 4084
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby David Quinn » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:23 pm

Sphere70 wrote:
David Quinn wrote:
Sphere70 wrote:
They are NOT an invitation for irrational people to shut down their brains.

This is a very ignorant statement. I'm sure Huang Po would slap you for this.

For what reason?

First of all, to use thought to realize the boundaries of thought (in terms of Enlightenment) is not the last step, its an intermediate step if anything. And this is basically what thought is good for in this field (other then to shape communication when desirable).

It isn’t just about the boundaries of thought, though, but about the boundaries of all things. The boundaries between enlightenment and ignorance, for example. Or between reality and illusion. Or between the self and the rest of reality. These things are all created by thought and therefore illusory.

Even your “silence” (which “thought conceals”) is a thought-construct and illusory. And yet there you, wasting your life chasing after this illusion.

All of this has to be abandoned if you truly want to tap into the transformative power of wisdom. But then, as Huang Po says, most people are too afraid to enter this Void....

As always, our conversation is saturated with irony. For all your talk about the need to end thought, you are the one who is still firmly trapped in thought and still pursuing illusions created by your own thought-constructs. By contrast, even though I urge people to fully use their reasoning powers, I am the one who is utterly free of all thought-constructs.

It's a funny old world ...


And to say something like "NOT an invitation for irrational people to shut down their brains" (like that is even a possibility) is also deluded. It further points to a shallowness of equating the non-conceptual space with "switching of the cerebral cortex".

I’m only echoing your own words here. How else are we take your stated goal of wanting to stop thought so as to enter “silence" or a “non-conceptual space"?

Make up your mind. Are you trying to silence thought or not?



Read and weep:

Huang Po:

Discuss it as you may, how can you even hope to approach the truth through words? Nor can it be perceived either subjectively or objectively. So full understanding can come to you only through an inexpressible mystery. The approach to it is called the Gateway of the Stillness beyond all Activity. If you wish to understand, know that a sudden comprehension comes when the mind has been purged of all the clutter of conceptual and discriminatory thought-activity. Those who seek the truth by means of intellect and learning only get further and further away from it. Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.

As I said before with the other Huang Po quotes, this kind of teaching is directed to those who are already on the brink of enlightenment themselves. It has a very deep meaning which only those who are fully rational are in a position to grasp. It is only for those few magnificent souls that the teaching truly comes alive and does its magical work.

-
User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Tomas » Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:13 am

-ma writes-
The way out is the way through

Here's Kelly Jones website:
Natural Thinker
http://www.naturalthinker.net/phpBB

.
User avatar
Tomas
 
Posts: 4324
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:15 am
Location: North Dakota

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Sphere70 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:35 am

It isn’t just about the boundaries of thought, though, but about the boundaries of all things. The boundaries between enlightenment and ignorance, for example. Or between reality and illusion. Or between the self and the rest of reality. These things are all created by thought and therefore illusory.


That's what I'm saying - these are all thought-created boundaries. The "boundaries of all things" is equal to the boundaries of thought. And pointing to the (loud) "Silence" is, of course, also thought-created for the sake of writing, and therefore bound as a communicative concept, but the "actuality" which it points to is not. It IS there at all time and to "chase" it is to miss what I'm trying to say completely. It is this "quality" which one (or rather: everyone) is, and which makes the wisdom experiential and not merely conceptual. But again, it is not something to "chase" - it is here, all the time! But our constant use of knowledge (thought) and its "creation" of a separate self/ego conceals it from being realized and experienced.

Even your “silence” (which “thought conceals”) is a thought-construct and illusory. And yet there you, wasting your life chasing after this illusion.

All of this has to be abandoned if you truly want to tap into the transformative power of wisdom. But then, as Huang Po says, most people are too afraid to enter this Void....


This "Silence"/"Void" (or whatever established word one prefer) is this wisdom. To abandon, to completely surrender, is to "enter" this "Silence". Call it an illusion if you will, I call it the only Reality - which consequently includes all.

As always, our conversation is saturated with irony. For all your talk about the need to end thought, you are the one who is still firmly trapped in thought and still pursuing illusions created by your own thought-constructs. By contrast, even though I urge people to fully use their reasoning powers, I am the one who is utterly free of all thought-constructs.


I disagree. I believe that you are not free of your thought-constructs at all - instead I think you are sitting comfortably enjoying the throbbing pleasures of a thriving intellectual ego. This you nurture and culture with care in a far away cottage, without any real intent of breaking through. That is - your wisdom is merely conceptual, which seems perfect for your ego because it can be measured and put into an hierarchy - while the true mystics and sages talk from an experiential wisdom, alive and potent and straight from the "Silence"/"Tao"/"God"- without ever pointing to a shallow outpost as logic/rationality/reason, which is where your finger constantly falls. At least this is the impression I've got from you on this site.

Make up your mind. Are you trying to silence thought or not?


If one through luck or grace were able to silence thought completely just for one slice of a second during ones conscious state then one can rest assure that this will lead to a transformation back to the "natural state". A clinical death would take place - with a reanimation and a complete death of the self/ego - and with thought taking its place as a useful servant instead as a rational or irrational master. This is described through many sages - their death-process leading up to a "new" (or old ,-) state of being. Of course, thought as a servant is by effect always rational & logical (but without any addiction to itself), but this goes without saying.
But no, I'm not trying to silence thought because this is not possible by intent, but ones one sees thought for what it is it loosens its grip by effect and the "underlying" reality shines through.

Some relating and inspiring quotes

Ug Krishnamurti:

The potential, the possibility is there, but the probability is zero. It is because you are all the time trying, and that is not letting what is there to express itself. Thought creates an armor all around itself. Any time a crack appears there, you patch it up.


Yes, that's why I say that any action that is born out of your thinking, or let's say thought, is destructive. It is destroying the peace that is there.


As I said before with the other Huang Po quotes, this kind of teaching is directed to those who are already on the brink of enlightenment themselves. It has a very deep meaning which only those who are fully rational are in a position to grasp. It is only for those few magnificent souls that the teaching truly comes alive and does its magical work.


Even to seekers ("advanced" - hoho - or not) he speaks clear words. I'll quote again:

Huang Po

The ignorant [seekers] eschew phenomena but not thought; the wise [seekers] eschew thought but not phenomena.

It's interesting how similar his viewpoint is to U.G's.

UG Krishnamurti

Thought is something dead and can never touch anything living. It cannot
capture life, contain it, and give expression to it. The moment it tries to
touch life, it is destroyed by the living quality of life.
Sphere70
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:18 am
Location: New York

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:48 pm

the only way to understand that reason has limits is to use reason.
use reason above all else.

brutal fact.
irrefutable.

the only way to understand that there's knowledge that transcends reason is to use reason.

when you think reason ought to be abandoned is when you most need reason.

non-conceptual awareness can only be understood by reasoning.
how else could you know non-conceptual awareness.
you couldn't!
Dennis Mahar
 
Posts: 4084
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Kunga » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:59 pm

But you still have no concept of what it acually is ...because how can you conceptualize that which is not conceptual ?
How would you discribe the indiscribable ?
User avatar
Kunga
 
Posts: 2304
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:33 pm

non-conceptual awareness or true nature is free, warm, spontaneous.

your life is mostly conceptually mediated.
you want stuff, or think you want stuff because somebody said you should have stuff, so you focus on doing stuff in order to get the stuff that doing that stuff was going to get.
the ship with the stuff on board didn't come in,
so, you looked up the menu of available stuff and got busy doing the stuff required in order to get the new stuff...
this time the ship with the stuff came in...

now you really had a problem!

You've got all this stuff.

Stuff needs management.
stuff breaks down, rusts, decays, gets old, dies, needs fixing, insuring, replacing.

pretty soon all the people and things in your life are troublesome equipment you have to manipulate and control in order to fit your picture of 'My Life'.

You know the drill perfectly well Kunga.
You know more than you let on.
Dennis Mahar
 
Posts: 4084
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Jamesh » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:50 pm

You already understand phenomena arises due to causes/conditions, pieces/parts as disclosed in your statement.
That all phenomena depends for existence.

Agree.

That no phenomena is self-established.

Agree and disagree.

That no phenomena exists independently.

Agree and disagree.

That's what emptiness means,
all phenomena lacks inherent existence.
there is a stunning absence of inherent existence in all phenomena.

Agree and disagree.

Why?

I'm a philosopher of the materialist bent, who understands concepts dualistically. By that I just mean there is an explanation for everything, and everything needs to be examined from more than one perspective.

These 3 true statements are also false….

That all phenomena depends for existence
That no phenomena is self-established
That no phenomena exists independently


…because of this latter statement you made, which is also true
(...and false, as no thing can truly be the same as any other, due to the occupation of space).

it has to be noticed all phenomena has an underlying sameness.


This is recognising that form has content. You are using dualistic reasoning acknowledging the other side of the coin.

So the content is all the same, yet not a particle, yet changes, and produces phenomena (I use the term differentiation, because something must happen to this underlying sameness to cause any form of differentiation. Phenomena I refer to as patterns of existence, as it doesn’t matter if they are observed or not)

My reasoning has lead me to name this sameness, I call it time.
(people must be so sick of me and this topic - well, I don't care)

Time, does depend on anything else for its existence [Time viewed as an expanding "space creating force"]

Time is self-established. [It cannot have a beginning or end, thus is not dependent on things, but precedes thingness]

Time exists independently. [It is the only thing that qualifies as being infinite, thus is independent by being all there is]


If phenomena existed independently, as 'thing-in-itself' there would be no change.
Phenomena would bang against each other.
It's not like that.


Agreed. I've discounted using logic the existence of an inherent universal particle. Such a particle would still have multiple properties and thus by necessity would be caused. Anything dimensional is an effect, that it is does not exist, in the same manner as you referred to in para 1.

Clearly,
change happens,
phenomena interacts subtly bringing changing forms.

If that's the case,
while noticing all phenomena as different,
it has to be noticed all phenomena has an underlying sameness.
not the same, not different.


Time is the same throughout, but to life that has the ability to combine differentiation into things, symbols, it differs by age. As Time expands, the preceding universe recedes into itself, it ages. The smaller a consistent type of form is, such as an atom, the older it is, the more it has receded from the present, where we things of consciousness dwell.

A thing like a galaxy is not being pulled in by a black hole, it is being pushed (into the past) by the expansion of time. Black holes are very old - they are in everything, on a different scale. In a whirlpool it is not the relative vacancy in the centre that draws water in, but the force of the water itself that pushes water down the path of least resistance. The relative vacancy, air, provides the freedom via lesser resistance, not the power.

With Time, its the other side of the coin, that freedom is on the outside of Now, and everything existing, the past, is on the inside doing the pushing. It is of little surprise that mass when released to a relative "freedom", transforms into energy - the need to push, to expand out.

Nothing can be infinite unless it "grows", it must constantly expand. In terms of the overall picture as a Totality, as if one were outside of it, it would have no where to expand to, so it instead has the effect of pushing within itself creating space (stretching the force of times expansion, spreading its power and in doing so creating dimensions) and then variations of space and mass (the complimentary concentration of times expansionary power that equalises the spatial expansion), as per E=Mc2. That singular fundamental process, causes a "expand-relative contraction" duality, that is the primary cause of causality, differentiation, forces.

therefore, the underlying condition is that everything exists as a web of relationship, interconnectivity, association.
therefore the underlying condition is that you are everything and everything is you.
There is no separate self.
It is of One expressing as many.


Agree and disagree.

Your self is your consciousness at any time (so maybe the trick really is to partly turn off consciousness, via turning off emotional and other forms of instinctual reaction, to seek Bruce Lee's "no way as way, having no limitation as limitation").

There is no way to reason out of this, however what causes both your consciousness and what you think during this consciousness, is caused by everything else existent at the time that lead to the moment of consciousness (causal infinity), and also something that is a continuum, Time. Everything existing must be pushed onward.

In being able to see across time, and each having our own mental universe, we are truly all little gods already.

Realising emptiness in this way produces,
an experience of not-self.
It is not fluffy.
This logic produces empathy/compassion.
How could itself harm itself unless deluded?
Unless deluded in the idea of separate self?


Agreed, apart from the not-self bit, other than in the sense of not being at all self-absorbed when reasoning. It is an experience of not-self rather than being of no self.

The most direct causal pattern that causes what you think during consciousness is your memory, your symbolic representation of your past. How that memory is assessed in terms of what thought packets are deemed worthy of sending to consciousness, is dependent on your learnt ego-program (your master "self" program) and the affects on the body of the present situation.

One can't escape this part of themselves, and even someone who views themselves as enlightened, will have synapses that cause the self, the ego program, to assert dominance at times.

You eschew the idea of 'enlightenment' as mystical and it looks like you equate that idea with 'psychological well-being' as a preference in terms. Fair enough.


Yes, I do. Enlightenment is the learning part that never stops. It is always about knowledge and self-examination. At least that is how it appears to me having never been to the other side - in the no-self manner in which some infer is possible - other than having gained an enhanced clarity of reasoning, relative to what mine was in the past (an affect of discussing these matters on forums in recent years).

Superior psychological well-being is the aim. It is this "desired outcome" that creates masculine empathy/compassion by freeing the mind from taught memes and ego based insecurity, and allowing one's own mind to reason relevant to the known circumstances.

Realising emptiness is 'beginner's mind',
psychological well-being.
emptiness is a state of mind,
clear, open.

A necessary background to push on deeper.


So they say. It still feels as if there is a baptism required. A delusion of some kind, though not a negative one.

I wonder what sort of little ego trip you get from writing in poetic form, for instance. Is it just entertainment, trying to be succinct or does it also make you, your-self, feel clever? (btw. personally, I like that form of writing.Taoish).
Last edited by Jamesh on Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Jamesh
 
Posts: 1524
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby David Quinn » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:45 pm

Sphere70 wrote:
David Quinn wrote:It isn’t just about the boundaries of thought, though, but about the boundaries of all things. The boundaries between enlightenment and ignorance, for example. Or between reality and illusion. Or between the self and the rest of reality. These things are all created by thought and therefore illusory.

That's what I'm saying - these are all thought-created boundaries. The "boundaries of all things" is equal to the boundaries of thought. And pointing to the (loud) "Silence" is, of course, also thought-created for the sake of writing, and therefore bound as a communicative concept, but the "actuality" which it points to is not.

Alas, even the Silence that you are pointing to here is thought-constructed as well.

In other words, not only is the concept of Silence a dualistic creation, a thought-construct, but so too is the experience of Silence.

This is what Huang Po is really talking about when he talks about the giving up of concepts. The moment you try to enter into the experience of Silence (or enlightenment), in that very moment you are being fooled by your own conceptualizing mind and you remain trapped in duality.

Moreover, in the very moment that you think you are experiencing Silence, in that same moment you are being fooled yet again by your own conceptualizing mind.

It is vitally important to understand that Silence, or the natural state, can never be experienced. And yet at the same time, it can never cease being experienced. It is something that can never be entered into or departed from.

As such, there is nothing we can do to enhance (or diminish) the experience of it. There is nothing to clear away, nothing to silence, nothing to stop. This is the essence of wisdom.

Part of you, deep down, seems to understand this. And yet for some reason you don't really want to face what this means and pursue its consequences. For example, in the very next sentence, you say:

It IS there at all time and to "chase" it is to miss what I'm trying to say completely. It is this "quality" which one (or rather: everyone) is, and which makes the wisdom experiential and not merely conceptual. But again, it is not something to "chase" - it is here, all the time! But our constant use of knowledge (thought) and its "creation" of a separate self/ego conceals it from being realized and experienced.

Can you not see the contradiction which goes to the heart of your current world-view? On the one hand, you affirm, verbally at least, that Silence is "here, all the time", and yet on the other hand, you continue to claim that certain things (e.g. thoughts) have to be cleared away before it can be experienced.

You need to stop hiding behind the gods of the generic guru industry and being their PR spokesman, and face this issue.

-
User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:39 pm

Jamesh,
Being is time was Heidegger's failed project.
Good luck with that.

To me time is the space between events.
Like past, present, future, sooner, later.
Space is the distance between objects.
near, far, here, there.

It's the environment.
conditions,
pieces/parts.

Neurologists are running with the holographic possibility.
what's out there is frequencies that get decoded in the brain that gives near/far and sooner/later credibility.

A thought needs a thinker,
a thought can't thought without a thinker,
and a thinker can't think without a thought,
a thought needs an object,
an object that's not a thought,
and an object needs a thought,
a thought by a thinker,
dependent origination.

Your object is time which you give power.
the mental trick of reification.
Dennis Mahar
 
Posts: 4084
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Beingof1 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:59 am

Another great discussion from all.

Thank you.

David, thank you for the life that you live. Most do not know what you have given up - I do.

Tell Dan to check into natural remedies - its Western medicine that actually has the bone in the nose remedies.

Peace out all
Beingof1
 
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:10 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Bobo » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:20 am

David Quinn wrote:It isn’t just about the boundaries of thought, though, but about the boundaries of all things. The boundaries between enlightenment and ignorance, for example. Or between reality and illusion. Or between the self and the rest of reality. These things are all created by thought and therefore illusory.

So when you say that there are absolute truths that are true in all worlds, everytime, everywhere, your view is that they are illusory absolute truths true in all worlds...
David Quinn wrote:It is vitally important to understand that Silence, or the natural state, can never be experienced. And yet at the same time, it can never cease being experienced. It is something that can never be entered into or departed from.

So what have you meant when you were talking about buddhahood in the other thread and said that:
David Quinn wrote:I can't say that I have permanently reached that stage yet, although I have my moments.
User avatar
Bobo
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:35 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Kunga » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:44 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:non-conceptual awareness or true nature is free, warm, spontaneous.

your life is mostly conceptually mediated.
you want stuff, or think you want stuff because somebody said you should have stuff, so you focus on doing stuff in order to get the stuff that doing that stuff was going to get.
the ship with the stuff on board didn't come in,
so, you looked up the menu of available stuff and got busy doing the stuff required in order to get the new stuff...
this time the ship with the stuff came in...

now you really had a problem!

You've got all this stuff.

Stuff needs management.
stuff breaks down, rusts, decays, gets old, dies, needs fixing, insuring, replacing.

pretty soon all the people and things in your life are troublesome equipment you have to manipulate and control in order to fit your picture of 'My Life'.

You know the drill perfectly well Kunga.
You know more than you let on.



You can still walk the path living with "stuff".
People can be attached to their non-attachment too.
My life is simple compared to most .
You don't need to renounce life.
Knowing all things are transitory...
Being alone in silence makes me more happy than stuff.
WTF are you on about anyways ?
LOL
User avatar
Kunga
 
Posts: 2304
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby David Quinn » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:46 am

Bobo wrote:
David Quinn wrote:It isn’t just about the boundaries of thought, though, but about the boundaries of all things. The boundaries between enlightenment and ignorance, for example. Or between reality and illusion. Or between the self and the rest of reality. These things are all created by thought and therefore illusory.

So when you say that there are absolute truths that are true in all worlds, everytime, everywhere, your view is that they are illusory absolute truths true in all worlds...

Their existence is certainly illusory, but this doesn't affect their truthfulness. For example, 1+1=2 always remains absolutely true, regardless whether it is conceived in a dream or in a simulation or in what we call the "real world".

Trees are illusions in the sense that they ultimately lack boundaries, just like all other things. Yet this doesn't stop them from continuing to grow leaves and provide shade.


Bobo wrote:
David Quinn wrote:It is vitally important to understand that Silence, or the natural state, can never be experienced. And yet at the same time, it can never cease being experienced. It is something that can never be entered into or departed from.

So what have you meant when you were talking about buddhahood in the other thread and said that:
David Quinn wrote:I can't say that I have permanently reached that stage yet, although I have my moments.

Well, this relates to the essential Zennish riddle that people have to solve if they want to become enlightened. A person experiences enlightenment the moment he fully abandons the distinction between enlightenment and ignorance. And yet as soon as he does this and affirms that he is indeed experiencing enlightenment, he immediately falls out of it again.

-
User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Tomas » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:38 am

David,

Good answers (reply whatever) to Bobo.
Don't run to your death
User avatar
Tomas
 
Posts: 4324
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:15 am
Location: North Dakota

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Dennis Mahar » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:19 pm

Kunga,
You can still walk the path living with "stuff".
People can be attached to their non-attachment too.
My life is simple compared to most .
You don't need to renounce life.
Knowing all things are transitory...
Being alone in silence makes me more happy than stuff.
WTF are you on about anyways ?
LOL


I wasn't particularly singling you out even tho' it might have looked that way because of my poor writng skills. Sorry about that chief.

I wanted to give a picture of the context most lives are lived out of and thereby, hopefully point to a recontextualisation for a life to be lived in accord with one's true nature.

Anyway, you know the drill, that's the main point.

If GF is a conversation for transformation,
such pointers are necessary,
for transformation.
Transformation is climbing mountains and one can't afford to stop climbing.
Dennis Mahar
 
Posts: 4084
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Blair » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:00 pm

The things you own, end up owning you. ~ Tyler Durden
User avatar
Blair
 
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:47 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Bobo » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:31 pm

David Quinn wrote:Their existence is certainly illusory, but this doesn't affect their truthfulness. For example, 1+1=2 always remains absolutely true, regardless whether it is conceived in a dream or in a simulation or in what we call the "real world".

Isn't 1=1 true in all worlds because the boundaries of 1=1 is true in all worlds? If 1=1 lacks boudaries... well 1=~1.

David Quinn wrote:A person experiences enlightenment the moment he fully abandons the distinction between enlightenment and ignorance. And yet as soon as he does this and affirms that he is indeed experiencing enlightenment, he immediately falls out of it again.
(...)
It is vitally important to understand that Silence, or the natural state, can never be experienced. And yet at the same time, it can never cease being experienced. It is something that can never be entered into or departed from.

This sounds mystical. Would you say that what you are describing is logical? If so, care to relate enlightenment to logic?
User avatar
Bobo
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:35 pm

Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby David Quinn » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:30 am

Bobo wrote:
David Quinn wrote:Their existence is certainly illusory, but this doesn't affect their truthfulness. For example, 1+1=2 always remains absolutely true, regardless whether it is conceived in a dream or in a simulation or in what we call the "real world".

Isn't 1=1 true in all worlds because the boundaries of 1=1 is true in all worlds? If 1=1 lacks boudaries... well 1=~1.

You have to be careful not to confuse truth with existence.

As soon as we define 1+1 to equal 2 it automatically becomes true in all worlds, for all time. That moment is enough. It wouldn't matter if 1+1=2 was never thought of again, or if 1 and 2 were subsequently defined in a different way. The truth of 1+1=2, as conceived in that moment, remains true in all worlds, for all time.

The same is true for the truth that 1+1 is ultimately an illusion. That too is true in all worlds, for all time.


Bobo wrote:
David Quinn wrote:A person experiences enlightenment the moment he fully abandons the distinction between enlightenment and ignorance. And yet as soon as he does this and affirms that he is indeed experiencing enlightenment, he immediately falls out of it again.
(...)
It is vitally important to understand that Silence, or the natural state, can never be experienced. And yet at the same time, it can never cease being experienced. It is something that can never be entered into or departed from.

This sounds mystical. Would you say that what you are describing is logical? If so, care to relate enlightenment to logic?

It is logical and mystical. The logic comes from the truth that Reality/Tao is utterly everything. It becomes mystical when you enter the whole of yourself into that logic.

-
User avatar
David Quinn
 
Posts: 5331
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
Location: Australia

PreviousNext

Return to GENIUS FORUM

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests