Why causality is an illusion

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Tomas
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Tomas » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:06 am

-MA-
Enlightenment of the mind is the discovery that you are eternal and infinite, without beginning, without ending.

tomas-
Tell you what there, honey. Something ain't running right on all your cylinders.

You should check out the site that Kelly Jones runs. You'd be a much better fit over there. She'll set you straight about what's what..
Last edited by Tomas on Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
Don't run to your death

Dennis Mahar
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Dennis Mahar » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:10 am

Diebert,
Trick that can easily become trap. The cure is Nagajuna's poison, reasoning on the edge, blowing up each and every resistance or hide-out until "nothing" is left.
Until freedom is left.
The Sage analogy goes like this,
as a bee goes from flower to flower extracting the essence from each, moving on without leaving trace, leaving no damage behind.
So, being-in-the-world is as such for the sage.
detached, free, light, warm.
situationally cognizant,
calm abiding.

It may look like I've reified Sage there,
built it up like a winning formula,
with a set of rules,
which it's not,
if it was it would be a trap,
with a consequent loss of freedom,
and merely become a performance,
with the attendant experience of 'performance anxiety'.

Sage isn't a thing,
It's a way of being,
it's clear mind,
free of 'thing' like dogma.

It's a way of being that has as it's background: perfect reasoning.
It explodes out of perfect reasoning.
arises dependently with perfect reasoning.
perfect reasoning depends on language,
language depends on human being,
human being depends on Earth,

a possibility for human being.

You get it Diebert,
thankyou.

Dennis Mahar
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Dennis Mahar » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:53 pm

Huang Po

(Chinese Zen Master, believed to have died around 850A.D.)



Huang Po has long been one of my favourite Buddhist sages. I love the way he expresses his wisdom in very simple prose, without any unnecessary encumbrances. He goes straight to the heart of existence with the minimum of fuss and never deviates from the core task of stimulating people into enlightenment. He also keeps his discourse largely free of Buddhist terminology, which is another sign of his mastery. A class act from beginning to end.



***



The Zen Teachings of Huang Po

All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong in the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces and comparisons. It is that which you see before you - begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured.

***

If you are not absolutely convinced that the Mind is the Buddha, and if you are attached to forms, practices and meritorious performances, your way of thinking is false and quite incompatible with the Way. The Mind is the Buddha, nor are there any other Buddhas or any other mind. It is bright and spotless as the void, having nor form or appearance whatsoever. To make use of your minds to think conceptually is to leave the substance and attach yourselves to form. Awake only to the One Mind, and there is nothing whatsoever to be attained.

If you students of the Way do not awaken to this Mind substance, you will overlay Mind with conceptual thought, you will seek the Buddha outside of yourselves, and you will remain attached to forms, pious practices and so on, all of which are harmful and not at all the way to supreme knowledge.

***

The substance of the Absolute is inwardly like wood or stone, in that it is motionless, and outwardly like the void, in that it is without bounds or obstructions. It is neither subjective nor objective, has no specific location, is formless, and cannot vanish. Those who hasten towards it dare not enter, fearing to hurtle down through the void with nothing to cling to or stay their fall. So they look to the brink and retreat.

***

All the qualities typified by the great Bodhisattvas are inherent in men and cannot be separated from the One Mind. Awake to it, and it is there. You students of the Way who do not awake to this in your own minds, and who are attached to appearances or who seek for something objective outside of your minds, have all turned your backs on the Way.

This Dharma is Mind, beyond which there is no Dharma. And this Mind is the Dharma, beyond which there is no mind. Mind in itself is no mind, yet neither is it no-mind. To say that Mind is no-mind implies something existent. Let there be a silent understanding and no more. Away with all thinking and explaining! Then we may say that the Way of Words has been cut off and movements of the mind eliminated.

***

Our original Buddha-Nature is, in highest truth, devoid of any atom of objectivity. It is void, omnipresent, silent, pure; it is glorious and mysterious peaceful joy - and that is all. Enter deeply into it by awakening to it yourself. That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete. There is naught beside. Even if you go through all the stages of a Bodhisattva's progress towards Buddhahood, one by one; when at last, in a single flash, you attain to full realization, you will only be realizing the Buddha-Nature which has been with you all the time; and by the foregoing stages you will have added nothing to it at all. You will come to look upon those aeons of work and achievement as no better than unreal actions performed in a dream.

This is why the Tathagata said, "I truly attained nothing from complete, unexcelled enlightenment." He also said: "This Dharma is absolutely without distinctions, neither high nor low, and its name is Bodhi." It is pure Mind, which is the source of everything and which, whether appearing as sentient beings or Buddhas, or as the rivers and mountains of the world which has form, or as that which is formless, or penetrating the whole universe, is absolutely without distinctions, there being no such entities as selfness and otherness.

***

This pure Mind, the source of everything, shines forever and on all with the brilliance of its own perfection. But the people of this world do not awake to it, regarding only that which sees, hears feels and knows as mind. Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling and knowing, they do not perceive the spiritual brilliance of the source-substance. If they would only eliminate all conceptual thought in a flash, that source-substance would manifest itself like the sun ascending through the void and illuminating the whole universe without hindrance or bounds.

Therefore, if you students of the way seek to progress through seeing, hearing, feeling and knowing, when you are deprived of your perceptions your way to Mind will be cut off and you will find nowhere to enter. Only realize that, though real Mind is expressed in these perceptions, it neither forms part of them, nor is separate from them. You should not start reasoning from these perceptions, nor allow them to give rise to conceptual thought; yet nor should you seek the One Mind apart from them or abandon them in your pursuit of the Dharma. Do not keep them, nor abandon them, nor dwell in them, nor cleave to them. Above, below and around you, all is spontaneously existing, for there is nowhere which is outside the Buddha-Mind.

***

Suppose a warrior, forgetting he was already wearing his pearl on his forehead, were to seek for it elsewhere, he could travel the whole world without finding it. But if someone who knew what was wrong were to point it out to him, the warrior would immediately realize that the pearl had been there all the time.

So, if you students of the Way are mistaken about your own real Mind, not recognizing that it is the Buddha, you will consequently look for him elsewhere, indulging in various achievements and practices and expecting to attain realization through such graduated practices. But even after aeons of diligent searching, you will not be able to attain the Way. These methods cannot be compared to the sudden elimination of conceptual thought, in the certain knowledge that there is nothing at all which has absolute existence, nothing on which to lay hold, nothing on which to rely, nothing in which to abide, nothing subjective or objective.

***

To awaken suddenly to the fact that your own Mind is the Buddha, that there is nothing to be attained or a single action to be performed - this is the Supreme Way; this really is to be a Buddha. It is only to be feared that you students of the Way, by the coming into existence of a single thought, may raise a barrier between yourselves and the Way. From thought-instant to thought-instant, no form; from thought-instant to thought-instant, no activity - that is to be a Buddha! If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything. Where nothing is sought, this implies Mind unborn; where no attachment exists, this implies Mind not destroyed; and that which is neither born nor destroyed is the Buddha.

The eighty-four thousand methods for countering the eighty-four thousand forms of delusion are merely figures of speech for drawing people towards the Gate. In fact, none of them have real existence. Relinquishment of everything is the Dharma, and he who understands this is a Buddha, but the relinquishment of ALL delusions leaves no Dharma in which to lay hold.

***

Understand the one point, and a thousand others will accordingly grow clear; misunderstand that one and ten thousand delusions will encompass you. He who holds to that one has no more problems to solve.

***

Ordinary people look to their surroundings, while follower of the Way look to Mind, but the true Dharma is to forget them both. The former is easy enough, the latter very difficult. Men are afraid to forget their minds, fearing to fall through the Void with nothing to stay their fall. They do not know that the Void is not really void, but the realm of the real Dharma. This spiritually enlightening nature is without beginning, as ancient as the Void, subject to neither birth nor destruction, neither existing nor not existing; neither pure nor impure, neither clamorous nor silent, neither old nor young, occupying no space, having neither inside nor outside, size nor form, colour nor sound. It cannot be looked for or sought, comprehended by wisdom nor knowledge, explained in words, contacted materially or reached by meritorious achievement. All the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, together with all wriggling things possessed of life, share in this great Nirvanic nature.

***

"Studying the Way" is a figure of speech. It is a method of arousing peoples interest is the early stages of their development. In fact, the Way is not something that can be studied. Study leads to the retention of concepts and so the Way is entirely misunderstood. The fruit of Truth is gained by putting an end to all anxiety; it does not come from book-learning.

***

All great men have abandoned learning and have come to rest in spontaneity. They do not think and end in perplexity as do worldly men.

***

If the meaning is not brilliantly clear to you, hasten to ask your questions. Do not allow hours to pass you in vain. If you people put your trust in this teaching and act accordingly, without being delivered, I shall gladly take your places in hell for the whole of my existence. If I have deceived you, may I be reborn in a place where lions, tigers and wolves will devour my flesh! But, if you do not put faith in this teaching, and do not practice it diligently, that will be because you do not understand it. Once you have lost a human body, you will not obtain another for millions of aeons. Strive on! Strive on! It is absolutely vital that you come to understand.

***

Zen Masters grasp at essentials and gain a direct understanding of the Mind Source. Their methods consist of revealing and hiding, of exposing and covering reality in a criss-cross manner which responds adequately to all the different grades of potentiality for enlightenment. They excel in harmonizing facts with the underlying principle, so that people may suddenly perceive the Tathagata; and by pulling up their deep samsaric roots, they cause their pupils to experience samadhi on the spot.

***

That which is called the City of Illusions contains the Two Vehicles, the Ten Stages of a Bodhisattva's Progress, and two forms of Full Enlightenment. All of them are powerful teachings for arousing people's interest, but they still belong to the City of Illusions. That which is called the Place of Precious Things is the real Mind, the original Buddha-essence, the treasure of our own real Nature. These jewels cannot be measured or accumulated. Yet since there are neither Buddha nor sentient beings, neither subject nor object, where can there be a Place of Precious Things? If you ask, "Well, so much for the City of Illusions, but where is the Place of Precious Things?", it is a place to which no directions can be given. For if it could be pointed out, it would be a place existing in space; hence, it would not be the real Place of Precious Things. All we can say is that it is close by. It cannot be exactly described, but when you have a tacit understanding of it, it is there.

***

People are often hindered by environmental phenomena from perceiving Mind, and by individual events from perceiving underlying principles; so they often try to escape from environmental phenomena in order to still their minds, or obscure events in order to retain their grasp of principles. They do not realize that this is merely to obscure phenomena with Mind, events with principles. Just let your minds become void and environmental phenomena will void themselves; let principles cease to stir and events will cease stirring of themselves.

Many people are afraid to empty their minds lest they plunge into the Void. They do not know that their own Mind is the void. The ignorant eschew phenomena but not thought; the wise eschew thought but not phenomena. When everything inside and outside, bodily and mental, has been relinquished; when, as in the Void, no attachments are left; when all action is dictated purely by place and circumstance; when subjectivity and objectivity are forgotten - that is the highest form of relinquishment.

***

The way is spiritual Truth and was originally without name or title. It was only because people ignorantly sought for it empirically that the Buddhas appeared and taught them to eradicate this method of approach. Fearing that nobody would understand, they selected the name "Way". You must not allow this name to lead you into forming a mental concept of a road. So it is said, "When the fish is caught we pay no more attention to the trap". When body and mind achieve spontaneity, the Way is reached and Mind is understood.

If you would spend all your time - walking, standing, sitting or lying down - learning to halt the concept-forming activities of your own mind, you could be sure of ultimately attaining your goal. Since your strength is insufficient, you might not be able to transcend samsara in a single leap; but after five or ten years, you would surely have made a good beginning and be able to make further progress spontaneously. It is because you are not that sort of man that you feel obliged to employ your mind studying the Way". What has all that got to do with Buddhism?

So, just discard all you have acquired as being no better than a bedspread for you when you were sick. Only when you have abandoned all perceptions, there being nothing objective to perceive; only when phenomena obstruct you no longer; only when you have rid yourself of the whole gamut of dualistic concepts of the" ignorant" and" Enlightened" category, will you at last earn the title of Transcendental Buddha.

***



These excerpts taken from "The Zen Teachings of Huang Po", translated by John Blofeld. The book is highly recommended, if you can find it.

from David.

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Jamesh
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Jamesh » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:45 pm

The result was men lost feeling and women lost logic.
both disintegrated.
In order for both to recover sanity,
feeling-logic must sing in perfect unison.

realising emptiness creates that.
A perfect piece of reasoning,
when taken in,
realised,
and the experience of not-self breaks through,
the mind floods with empathy and compassion.

feeling-logic singing in perfect unison.


This unity is what I've always believed is what should be the true desire in terms of enlightenment, logic and emotions constantly interacting as a continuum is clearly what our true nature as humans is. We are made from both male and female genes, thus every human consists of the attributes of both sexes, to differing ratios.

I just think the terminology regarding "emptiness" and "not-self" is unnessary fluff. These are terms like the word "god" - irrational and non-existent thus impossible to have any understanding of.

Really what you are saying is the aim should to create a consistent self-determined centre between the polar opposites of logic (mental life) and feelings (physical life).

The degree of each per individual is dependent upon our dominant genetic sexual status. As we are beholden to our particular chemical system (sexuality), it is unwise to seek to ultimately become other than what our genetic disposition causes us to be - however in order to understand what our natural genetic disposition really is, so that we can properly reason our actions should be, we need to truly know, by experience or by empathy, both the extremes of logic obsession and emotional highs and lows.

Once the emotions are mastered by reason relative to ones sexual disposition, and one becomes experienced in moderating the fluctuations towards either pole then this self-confidence and self-control enables one to be emotionally generous to others.

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Pam Seeback » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:56 pm

Thank you, Dennis, for posting the words of Huang Po, indeed, an enlightened man.

Note there is no humanism, no personality, in Huang Po's words. No mention of men and women, of society, of the world, of culture, of politics, of anything of human manufacture. He walk the talk of total detachment.
Huang Po: It is that which you see before you - begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured.
And yet, on this board, reasoning what you see before you is god. From wiki:
While Huángbò was an uncompromising and somewhat fearsome Chan teacher, he understood the nature of fear in students when they heard the doctrine of emptiness and the Void: “Those who hasten towards it [the Void] dare not enter, fearing to hurtle down through the void with nothing to cling to or to stay their fall. So they look to the brink and retreat.” [21] He taught that ‘no activity’ was the gateway of his Dharma but that “all who reach this gate fear to enter.” [22] To overcome this fear, one “must enter it with the suddenness of a knife-thrust”


Can you not see the contradiction of following the teachings of a man who declares reasoning to be the error, and then, coming to the conclusion that the definition of freedom is to arrive at the awareness of feeling-logic?

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Jamesh
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Jamesh » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:26 am

While Huángbò was an uncompromising and somewhat fearsome Chan teacher, he understood the nature of fear in students when they heard the doctrine of emptiness and the Void: “Those who hasten towards it [the Void] dare not enter, fearing to hurtle down through the void with nothing to cling to or to stay their fall. So they look to the brink and retreat.” [21] He taught that ‘no activity’ was the gateway of his Dharma but that “all who reach this gate fear to enter.” [22] To overcome this fear, one “must enter it with the suddenness of a knife-thrust”

Can you not see the contradiction of following the teachings of a man who declares reasoning to be the error, and then, coming to the conclusion that the definition of freedom is to arrive at the awareness of feeling-logic?
For myself, not really. Analysing your quote indicates that he was talking about uneducated kids hearing these concepts for the first time. I can imagine a Japanese Samurai saying much the same thing say about fear of death.

Umm, I think I need a better understanding of what it means to be "broken in". A horse submitting to a trainer is little different than a completely naïve student and an "uncompromising and somewhat fearsome Chan teacher", as is the evangelical born-again process.

There does seem to be a point in a humans mental system, where the brains Ego program (the deciding self) as developed from experience like a computer AI program, can be short-circuited. Lol, hypnotism shows that it can be turned off and on fairly easily.

I think you may have self-hypnotised yourself and can't reason your way back to consciousness.

Regardless of what you or types like Huang Po may have thought, everything is about reason (reason is just the logical, and rational to one's own circumstances, mental categorisation of observed reality in any one moment). It just depends on whether the reason comes from ones consciousness or subconscious. You seem to be wanting to rely on your subconscious reasoning so as to go beyond conscious reasoning - its more in the now isn’t it!

Good Luck. Won't work though, as it is not consistently sustainable. Any time you have to make a post you are utilising the conscious mind. The conscious mind handles the unity of subconscious reasoning and emotion. Whenever you deal with another human, or something human based like entertainment, you will always have to utilise the conscious mind. When in contact with others, instinctively your body will produce chemicals to prepare your brain for competition with these others, you will be chemically emotionalised into the conscious method of reasoning.

It is possible to create in your mind a self referencing program, whereby the ego program is converted into a rejection-of-consciousness program. This is what happens to the deeply religious. They are lead to reason that the ego must be mostly "turned off" in order to gain the grace of god. Instead of the bullshit "Non-self" or "One Mind" it is "God-self". Effectively they are turning off reason, which by the way, every time I listen to a religious person, like politicians [such as for Oz Tony Abbott or for the US any republican] I witness in real life.

When it is not reason, but emotion that is turned off, then the results vary. Overall they are the greatest evolutioneers of human control over nature, but this human phenomena also produce sociopaths. The dangerous ones are those who think they have turned of emotions, but whom have really turned off reason and are thus unable to tell the difference between reason and emotion, emotional impulses become "rationality". This is why all religious people are potential sociopaths.

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Pam Seeback » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:32 am

I think you may have self-hypnotised yourself and can't reason your way back to consciousness. You seem to be wanting to rely on your subconscious reasoning so as to go beyond conscious reasoning - its more in the now isn’t it!
No, I am using my conscious reasoning to go beyond conscious reasoning, reasoning only the error of reasoning.
Good Luck. Won't work though, as it is not consistently sustainable.
All that is required of the one who walks the way of reasoning the ignorance of reasoning consciousness, as if consciousness is dependent on reasoning, and not the other way around, is that they walk the walk of this purifying fire.
Any time you have to make a post you are utilising the conscious mind. The conscious mind handles the unity of subconscious reasoning and emotion. Whenever you deal with another human, or something human based like entertainment, you will always have to utilise the conscious mind. When in contact with others, instinctively your body will produce chemicals to prepare your brain for competition with these others, you will be chemically emotionalised into the conscious method of reasoning.
You said something profound here, whether you realize it or not. You said:
Any time you have to make a post you are utilising the conscious mind.
You are utilizing the conscious mind. Who is this YOU that is using the conscious mind? This YOU must be transcendent to your conscious mind, or how else could you use it?
When it is not reason, but emotion that is turned off, then the results vary. Overall they are the greatest evolutioneers of human control over nature, but this human phenomena also produce sociopaths. The dangerous ones are those who think they have turned of emotions, but whom have really turned off reason and are thus unable to tell the difference between reason and emotion, emotional impulses become "rationality". This is why all religious people are potential sociopaths.
Intelligent control of nature does nothing to end one's thirst of the need to control nature. There is nothing new under the sun, but man keeps believing he is making something new.

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Sphere70 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:13 am

Huang Po:
If you would spend all your time – walking, standing, sitting or lying down – learning to halt the concept-forming activities of your own mind, you could be sure of ultimately attaining the goal.
If they would only eliminate all conceptual thought in a flash, that source-substance would manifest itself like a sun....
So you students of the Way should immediately refrain from all conceptual thought. Let a tacit understanding be all! Any mental processes must lead to error. There is just a transmission of Mind with Mind.
Many people are afraid to empty their minds lest they may plunge into the Void. They do not know that their own Mind is the void. The ignorant [seekers] eschew phenomena but not thought; the wise [seekers] eschew thought but not phenomena.
Put a Stop to Conceptual Thought and Forget Your Anxiety

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by jufa » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:24 am

We talk to ourselves by thoughts and others verbally. How we think and what we believe or acknowledge concerning life, living and all thing we are consciously and unconsciously aware of, is the law and standards by which we accept and receive unto ourselves how others, and the elements of life respond to us in judgment.

Now our intent and purpose in mind goes forth from us by way of our thoughts, actions, deeds, reactions, and words in all our moments of consciousness, the exact ways, in principle, they return to us from the reflecting walls of ourselves in the same moment. "We never go out of ourselves; it is always our own thoughts that we perceive."

Because we are object beings of Consciousness' Principled Substance and Patterned Essence, thoughts come to us whole, perfect, complete and pure. Upon entrance into our human consciousness, then minds, thoughts become locked in words, pictures, images and interpreted projected human visions.

All visualized varieties of forms our minds have acquainted themselves with though-out the ages, and because our minds believe they are a creative power, these forms became lost in the illusion of duplication of that which Consciousness has already created.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by David Quinn » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:31 am

Sphere70 wrote:Huang Po:
If you would spend all your time – walking, standing, sitting or lying down – learning to halt the concept-forming activities of your own mind, you could be sure of ultimately attaining the goal.
If they would only eliminate all conceptual thought in a flash, that source-substance would manifest itself like a sun....
So you students of the Way should immediately refrain from all conceptual thought. Let a tacit understanding be all! Any mental processes must lead to error. There is just a transmission of Mind with Mind.
Many people are afraid to empty their minds lest they may plunge into the Void. They do not know that their own Mind is the void. The ignorant [seekers] eschew phenomena but not thought; the wise [seekers] eschew thought but not phenomena.
Put a Stop to Conceptual Thought and Forget Your Anxiety
Are you sure that you truly understand what Huang Po means with these statements?

Be very careful. These statements are part of a highly rational teaching for very advanced students. They are designed to help those who already have a tremendous understanding of reality, who are already hovering on the brink of enlightenment, through that final barrier. They are NOT an invitation for irrational people to shut down their brains.

Avoid the crude route! You won't get anywhere by simply trying to switch off the cerebral cortex. That's not what this is about!

-

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Sphere70 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:44 am

They are NOT an invitation for irrational people to shut down their brains.
This is a very ignorant statement. I'm sure Huang Po would slap you for this.

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:52 am

Jamesh,
This unity is what I've always believed is what should be the true desire in terms of enlightenment, logic and emotions constantly interacting as a continuum is clearly what our true nature as humans is. We are made from both male and female genes, thus every human consists of the attributes of both sexes, to differing ratios.

I just think the terminology regarding "emptiness" and "not-self" is unnessary fluff. These are terms like the word "god" - irrational and non-existent thus impossible to have any understanding of.

Really what you are saying is the aim should to create a consistent self-determined centre between the polar opposites of logic (mental life) and feelings (physical life).

The degree of each per individual is dependent upon our dominant genetic sexual status. As we are beholden to our particular chemical system (sexuality), it is unwise to seek to ultimately become other than what our genetic disposition causes us to be - however in order to understand what our natural genetic disposition really is, so that we can properly reason our actions should be, we need to truly know, by experience or by empathy, both the extremes of logic obsession and emotional highs and lows.

Once the emotions are mastered by reason relative to ones sexual disposition, and one becomes experienced in moderating the fluctuations towards either pole then this self-confidence and self-control enables one to be emotionally generous to others.
You already understand phenomena arises due to causes/conditions, pieces/parts as disclosed in your statement.
That all phenomena depends for existence.
That no phenomena is self-established.
That no phenomena exists independently.
That's what emptiness means,
all phenomena lacks inherent existence.
there is a stunning absence of inherent existence in all phenomena.

If phenomena existed independently, as 'thing-in-itself' there would be no change.
Phenomena would bang against each other.
It's not like that.
Clearly,
change happens,
phenomena interacts subtly bringing changing forms.

If that's the case,
while noticing all phenomena as different,
it has to be noticed all phenomena has an underlying sameness.
not the same, not different.
therefore, the underlying condition is that everything exists as a web of relationship, interconnectivity, association.
therefore the underlying condition is that you are everything and everything is you.
There is no separate self.
It is of One expressing as many.

Realising emptiness in this way produces,
an experience of not-self.
It is not fluffy.
This logic produces empathy/compassion.
How could itself harm itself unless deluded?
Unless deluded in the idea of separate self?

You eschew the idea of 'enlightenment' as mystical and it looks like you equate that idea with 'psychological well-being' as a preference in terms. Fair enough.

Realising emptiness is 'beginner's mind',
psychological well-being.
emptiness is a state of mind,
clear, open.

A necessary background to push on deeper.

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Kunga » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:40 am

What if then...(while you are pushing on deeper.)..you come to a thought that makes you realize you are not the top of the food chain in this ONENESS .....
Do you have enough compassion for those that want to eat you and raise you like cattle for their consumption ?
Or do you say fuck this shit about enlightenment and try to figure out how to save the human race from being brainwashed/enslaved by extraterrestrials ?

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:45 am

Pam,
Can you not see the contradiction of following the teachings of a man who declares reasoning to be the error, and then, coming to the conclusion that the definition of freedom is to arrive at the awareness of feeling-logic?
No contradiction.
Reasoning to a point,
then,
'enter with the suddeness of a knife thrust.'
it's what happens,
sudden breakthrough.

Huang Po is still laying a track of reasons,
the tracker is being made cognizant of,
then,
Pow!
there are no reasons, what reasons do you need to be sure.

Dennis Mahar
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:51 am

Kunga,
you come to a thought that makes you realize you are not the top of the food chain in this ONENESS .....
You've just reified yourself as a separate self, inherently existing, independently self-established creature of your own making.

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Kunga
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Kunga » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:13 pm

Maybe it's all an illusion to mesmerize us....so you never wake up to the real truth...
We think we got it all figured out with Emptiness, The One Mind, etc. (it pacifies our ego to think it knows something )
But it could just be us being brainwashed and manipulated so we become more docile....for the harvest.....

Sorry....I always get distracted with this stuff.......it makes this quest for the truth look like a smoke screen to the real truth :

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_ ... m#contents


But then again... if this alien shit is true....the truth of Emptiness is our only salvation from suffering the mindblowing effects
of phenomena....

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Tomas
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Tomas » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:57 pm

Sphere70 wrote:
They are NOT an invitation for irrational people to shut down their brains.
This is a very ignorant statement. I'm sure Huang Po would slap you for this.
But I have to say one of the worst things in this world is not being alone. It's being surrounded by people that make you feel like you're alone.
Last edited by Tomas on Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't run to your death

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:44 pm

If there are aliens.
they would lack inherent existence.
not be self-established in nature.
of one, expressing as many.

don't worry.
Trust.

ego bouncing around in rubber room
is just fear rising.

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Kunga
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Kunga » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:02 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:If there are aliens.
they would lack inherent existence.
not be self-established in nature.
of one, expressing as many.

don't worry.
Trust.

ego bouncing around in rubber room
is just fear rising.

Thank you Dennis for wanting to comfort me.
I can't say I really am fearful...I don't feel fear.
I just want to know the truth...

Yes...I can see the logistics of emptiness
but still ....Its hard to accept things that happen
and not try to stop them when there is injustice....
Just because everything is empty dosn't mean you are apathetic

Our fight or flight instincts are there for a reason.

I guess when you are a Buddha you stop fighting for survival ?

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David Quinn
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by David Quinn » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:14 pm

Sphere70 wrote:
They are NOT an invitation for irrational people to shut down their brains.
This is a very ignorant statement. I'm sure Huang Po would slap you for this.
For what reason?

-

Dennis Mahar
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Dennis Mahar » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:46 pm

Kunga,
Thank you Dennis for wanting to comfort me.
I can't say I really am fearful...I don't feel fear.
I just want to know the truth...
I get you.
You are concerned for others.
You care.
It's magnificent of you.
I celebrate you forever. thankyou.

I want you to confirm for me please.
Or am I nuts?
Is there any phenomena that has inherent existence?
Is there a stunning absence of inherent existence in all phenomena?
On the question,
how do things exist?,
are there not,
causes/conditions, pieces/parts?
Is it not true,
that all phenomena that arises depends for its existence on such?

Is it not true that all phenomena are different and the same?

If you can confirm for me this track of reasoning,
then I can safely conclude,
non-duality.
all is One, expressing as many.

If I got that,
how could I be apathetic?
How could I not fill with wonder and amazement?

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Blair
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Blair » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:38 pm

Kunga wrote:I guess when you are a Buddha you stop fighting for survival ?
Five year old child languishes in agony from third degree burns.

Church against stem cell treatment.

You figure it out..

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Pam Seeback » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:25 pm

Kunga,
I guess when you are a Buddha you stop fighting for survival ?
Yes. The desire to survive is at the heart of ignorance, and of all of man's suffering. There is no doubt about it, the rational mind is the best vehicle for wise effects or elemental management, but deeper wisdom [the wisdom the rational mind, out of fear for its survival, rejects] reveals that the rational mind is itself an effect, which makes the rational mind a an effect interpreting effects. This is where the fight for survival exists, in this error of believing the rational mind is the seat of truth. The ignorance of this belief is so entrenched, so deep, that when a Buddha or a Christ comes along and points out that the rational mind is, and never will be, the seat of Ultimate Reality, that individual is ignored or mocked. Why? Because the rational mind is in terror of its own death. Which is, itself an irrational belief, because it knows that it is born to die. This fear is understandable, and arouses compassion in the Buddha or Christ, but it does not change the truth the Buddha and the Christ brings, the truth of that which is not born and does not die, the truth of Nirvana or Pure Spirit Consciousness.

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Pam Seeback » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:44 pm

David Quinn wrote:
Sphere70 wrote:
They are NOT an invitation for irrational people to shut down their brains.
This is a very ignorant statement. I'm sure Huang Po would slap you for this.
For what reason?

-
Because it is not possible for the conscious mind to shut itself down. The conscious mind, as I stated above, is an effect of an unknown cause, which makes it powerless to be the instrument of its own death. The seat of power is one's conscience of consciousness, which has the wisdom of what is born [what is ever changing and illusory] and what is not is not born [what is unchanging and real], and brings this wisdom to the light of the conscious mind.

Huang Po:
All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance.
The rational mind of the human brain has a beginning, birth and is destroyed, death. The rational mind believes in green and yellow, which makes it the seat of the appearance of form, the house of materialism.

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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Post by Pam Seeback » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:23 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:
If there are aliens.
they would lack inherent existence.
not be self-established in nature.
of one, expressing as many.

don't worry.
Trust.

ego bouncing around in rubber room
is just fear rising.

Kunga wrote: Thank you Dennis for wanting to comfort me.
I can't say I really am fearful...I don't feel fear.
I just want to know the truth...
Any form appearing is not permanent, regardless of how it looks, regardless of its intent, be it good or be it evil. And from where do these impermanent forms of good and evil originate? From within the invisible, infinity of you that is THE permanent reality of pure spirit forms, which are neither good nor evil. The law of causality is just that, a law. A law is not That which forms the law. An important difference.

Which means that when you keep your attention not on the visible impermanence of you as you go about your business of the day, but on the invisible permanence of you [the experience of being the Transcendental Buddha or Christ] no visible form has power over you. Why? Because you see through the illusion of the appearance of the law of impermanence, the law of destructible forms, and rest on this wisdom, you also being That which is also of forms that are indestructible. This is why it is erroneous to believe that the indestructible infinite is in an eternal relationship with the destructible forms of the rational mind.

It goes back to cousinbasil's story of the man and the elephant. If both the man and the elephant had the wisdom that every form that is interpreted is but an illusion arising from within their own One Mind, the belief in solidness [permanence] of form would not exist, and both the man and the elephant would be known, in wholeness of consciousness, to be one and the same form.

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