Visual Art as Contemplation

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Sphere70
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Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Sphere70 »

I know images is aimed, as a rule, to be avoided at this forum - but I think posting them directly on the page (instead through links) will benefit this post (a good rule should be bendable for its purpose).

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Schopenhauer
"…aesthetic pleasure in the beautiful consists, to a large extent, in the fact that, when we enter the state of pure contemplation, we are raised for the moment above all willing, above all desires and cares; we are, so to speak, rid of ourselves." (The World as Will and Representation, Vol. I, § 68)


Schopenhauer
"Perhaps the reason why common objects in still life seem so transfigured and generally everything painted appears in a supernatural light is that we then no longer look at things in the flux of time and in the connection of cause and effect …. On the contrary, we are snatched out of that eternal flux of all things and removed into a dead and silent eternity. In its individuality the thing itself was determined by time and by the [causal] conditions of the understanding; here we see this connection abolished and only the Platonic Idea is left." (Manuscript Remains, Vol. I, § 80)


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Desiree Dolron - VIII (Photography)

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Mamma Andersson - Backwoods (Painting)

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Jenny Scobel - Darkness Turned in Gray (Drawing)

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Michael Borremans - Square of Despair (Drawing)

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Tim Eitel - Boot (Painting)

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Sally Mann - What Remains (Photography)

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David Quinn
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by David Quinn »

Schopenhauer is talking about altered states there - e.g. mystical experiences, unusual perceptions, refined emotional highs, etc - and the idea behind your thread here is essentially the same. Namely, to trigger altered states.

I don't have anything against altered states as such. They can be wonderful to experience; they can provide insight; they can be life-changing. At their best, they can be stepping stones to the ultimate wisdom which lies beyond all states, both normal and altered. But more often than not, people become addicted to them, causing them to stagnate in the lower realms. Like all drugs, they should be treated with care.

But I'll bow to your addiction and leave this thread open to the posting of pictures. Ideally, though, I would like to see some commentary attached with the posting of a picture, giving us an idea of why the poster thinks their picture is important or interesting.

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Sphere70
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

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Well, Schopenhauer talked about two ways to transcend the wheel of desire and to become without a self (ego-less to the extent possible) - one being through the aesthetics of nature or/and the fine arts (Visual Art being the type I'm focusing on in this post) - and the other through a complete ascetic way of life.
I would like to see some commentary attached with the posting of a picture, giving us an idea of why the poster thinks their picture is important or interesting
The images I post here shares the same root-quality of being - from my subjective viewpoint - of such a high quality (which it shares with the other great arts in different fields) that it escapes the desire for scholarly discourse and dissection, and definitely the need for explanation and reason. It becomes - as it were - an end in itself. With its qualities of being it escapes the utilitarian prison created by the British mind (which the Australian mind has inherited and cultivated with vigor). A great work of visual art is comparable with the elevated musical works, or the high literary expressions - it transcends reason.
But I'll bow to your addiction
Oh, Thank You humble Doctor of the Absolute. Your lotus feets of impeccable pureness will be thoroughly rinsed with natural oils derived from yellow nectarines in the coming prayers to the Greats!
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Sphere70 »

Relating Quotes:

Quality isn't something you lay on top of subjects and objects like tinsel on a Christmas tree. Real Quality must be the source of the subjects and objects, the cone from which the tree must start."
— Robert M. Pirsig


Style is what gives value and currency to thoughts.
— Schopenhauer


Art has no end but its own perfection
— Plato


Admiration for a quality or an art can be so strong that it deters us from striving to possess it
— Nietzsche


Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature
— Nietzsche


Art is the proper task of life
— Nietzsche


To be properly expressed a thing must proceed from within, moved by its form: it must come, not in from without but out from within
— Meister Eckhart


Form is a revelation of essence
— Meister Eckhart


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Marlene Dumas - Untitled (Painting)

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Gregory Crewdson - Untitled (Photography)

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Yun-Fei Ji - The Died Are Also Moving (Drawing)

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Andrew Wyeth - Untitled (Painting)

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David Quinn
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by David Quinn »

Sphere70 wrote:Well, Schopenhauer talked about two ways to transcend the wheel of desire and to become without a self (ego-less to the extent possible) - one being through the aesthetics of nature or/and the fine arts (Visual Art being the type I'm focusing on in this post) - and the other through a complete ascetic way of life.

Or you can just grow out of it.

Schopenhauer's two ways are impermanent solutions. They can open up a person's mind to what is possible, but they can't keep him there. Just like all drugs.

Sphere70 wrote:
I would like to see some commentary attached with the posting of a picture, giving us an idea of why the poster thinks their picture is important or interesting
The images I post here shares the same root-quality of being - from my subjective viewpoint - of such a high quality (which it shares with the other great arts in different fields) that it escapes the desire for scholarly discourse and dissection, and definitely the need for explanation and reason. It becomes - as it were - an end in itself. With its qualities of being it escapes the utilitarian prison created by the British mind (which the Australian mind has inherited and cultivated with vigor). A great work of visual art is comparable with the elevated musical works, or the high literary expressions - it transcends reason.

You're addicted to the highs. I understand that. You're constantly posting pictures, videos, books, lectures, etc, which have elevated your mind. Nothing wrong with that, except that it's merely the beginning to what is possible. Ideally, we need to reach the stage where we are constantly elevated no matter what the situation, where we no longer need the presence of particular types of forms to keep propping us up.

Speaking personally, the mundane table where I am sitting right at this very moment, with its cheap veneer spreading out beneath the computer, notebooks, pens, and coffee cup, is infinitely more beautiful and captivating than all of the pictures you have posted so far. The pictures seem so lifeless and contrived in comparison.

In the language of Zen, art is painting legs on a snake.

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Blair
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Blair »

I like this picture 'cause it transcends reason..

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xpsyuvz
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by xpsyuvz »

David Quinn,
Speaking personally, the mundane table where I am sitting right at this very moment, with its cheap veneer spreading out beneath the computer, notebooks, pens, and coffee cup, is infinitely more beautiful and captivating than all of the pictures you have posted so far. The pictures seem so lifeless and contrived in comparison.
Nice (except you put your perspective of one material thing over another material thing -- which might seem unenlightened, but IMO is okay...).

Art does seem "contrived" (to quote you).
I'm too emotionally flat to appreciate art lately. (...Except, I saw some bright flashing lights in contrast to the dark night, that for a moment caught me (in a weird Maya-esque/natural attraction way...)


--

One thing I like about paintings and photos is that: it sends a relatively instant message -- rather than weeding through a time sequence of bullshit just to get to a (not too great) conclusion... (And that the artist usually meant to communicate a "special" snap-shop -- intending it to be better than just random riff-raff, I suppose?)


--
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Blair
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

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David Quinn
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by David Quinn »

Ah yes, the glories of transcending reason!

Who can fault it?

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David Quinn
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by David Quinn »

xpsyuvz wrote:
David Quinn wrote:Speaking personally, the mundane table where I am sitting right at this very moment, with its cheap veneer spreading out beneath the computer, notebooks, pens, and coffee cup, is infinitely more beautiful and captivating than all of the pictures you have posted so far. The pictures seem so lifeless and contrived in comparison.
Nice (except you put your perspective of one material thing over another material thing -- which might seem unenlightened, but IMO is okay...).
Yes, I was exaggerating to make a point. The pictures are indeed as magnificent as the table, although probably not in the way the artists think.

The dissolving of the distinction between art and non-art is the important thing. Nature constantly throws up artistic masterpieces of such depth and beauty that one can only marvel at the arrogance and blindness of artists.

Art - egotism spewed onto canvas.

One thing I like about paintings and photos is that: it sends a relatively instant message -- rather than weeding through a time sequence of bullshit just to get to a (not too great) conclusion... (And that the artist usually meant to communicate a "special" snap-shop -- intending it to be better than just random riff-raff, I suppose?)
I take your point, although surely it speaks more to the mediocrity of most of the prose that exists in the world than to the nature of prose itself.

Also, the "instant message" given by paintings and photos is usually pretty limited in scope, don't you find? It is very difficult to develop a sustained line of thought or take a person along a journey into deepening levels of insight by just using pictures or photos.

That is why we never see philosophical threads where only pictures are posted. It is impossible to get meaningful dialectic up and running in with such a method.

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Sphere70
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Sphere70 »

You're addicted to the highs. I understand that.
Nothing compared to the continuous stream of serotonin you surf on when strokin' your homeboys of wisdom posted everywhere on your site.
You're constantly posting pictures, videos, books, lectures, etc, which have elevated your mind.
You and Zolwayz page is jack full of it.
Ideally, we need to reach the stage where we are constantly elevated no matter what the situation, where we no longer need the presence of particular types of forms to keep propping us up.
The way Schopenhauer discussed what the great arts can do is as a way to reach a contemplative state and a vision of the life-force (Will) which prevails in everything - this is of course available everywhere at all time but it is not always that one sees that. It can work as a catalyst. Recognize! I addressed it because it has rarely been brought up here and it is another practical method.
You are highly non-practical in your posts (you just wine on about where One should be to be Wise - and amazingly this is exactly where you yourself are - a throbbing and healthy Ego indeed). I'm getting more and more convinced that you truly are a British Academic with strict Christian influences, wearing a comfortable Zen-robe as diversion.
Speaking personally, the mundane table where I am sitting right at this very moment, with its cheap veneer spreading out beneath the computer, notebooks, pens, and coffee cup, is infinitely more beautiful and captivating than all of the pictures you have posted so far. The pictures seem so lifeless and contrived in comparison.
This is exactly the role the good visual art (and artists) has taken. To bring to life and show this undercurrent of beauty (that is: neither beautiful nor ugly) in the Will in all its aspects - like an aesthetic koan. This is exactly what it is about. If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't - no big deal (and not a big surprise).
In the language of Zen, art is painting legs on a snake.
Your man-toy Hakuin was very, very, busy painting legs on snakes.
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

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Nature constantly throws up artistic masterpieces of such depth and beauty that one can only marvel at the arrogance and blindness of artists.
And about the "philosophers" who constantly feel the need to reason about it and discuss it.

I also suspect that your 'marvel of arrogance' comes from you bitterly witnessing the artists of various kinds hogging the few, and in your eyes prestigious, 'stamps of Genius' that has been handed out during the times - and which lives on to this day.
I take your point, although surely it speaks more to the mediocrity of most of the prose that exists in the world than to the nature of prose itself.
To write a great piece of prose is being a great artist. You - that write books - do you consider yourself a master of this art-form?
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

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This one is for you David (I know you think you thought yourself into his position ,-)

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Caspar David Friedrich - The Wanderer Above the Sea of Fog (Painting)

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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

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Zen Master Hakuin's
a Paragraph from the Letter in Answer to an Old Nun of the Hokke [Nichiren] Sect
The 25th day of the Eleventh Month of Enkyo 4
(C.E. 1747)

This One Mind, derived from the two characters Myoho mentioned above, when spread out includes all the Dharma worlds of the ten directions, and when contracted returns to the no-thought and no-mind of the self-nature. Therefore such things as "outside the mind no thing exists," "in the three worlds there is One Mind alone," and "the true appearance of all things," have been preached. Reaching this ultimate place is called the Lotus Sutra, or the Buddha of Infinite Light; in Zen it is called the Original Face, in Shingon the Sun Disc of the Inherent Nature of the Letter A, in Ritsu the Basic, Intangible Form of the Precepts. Everyone must realize that these are all different names for the One Mind.

One may ask: "What proof is there that the five characters Myoho renge kyo point to the fountainhead of the one mind?" These five characters, just as they are, immediately serve as proof that can readily be substantiated. Why? Myoho renge kyo is a title that sings the praises of the mysterious virtues of the One Mind. It is composed of words that point to and reveal the inherent character of this One Mind, with which all men are innately endowed.

To be more speficic, look at calligraphy and painting. Or better, when someone says that so-and-so has a genius for peforming on the biwa or the koto, if we ask just where that genius lies, nobody, no matter how eloquent or gifted of tongue he may be, will ever be able to explain it in words. We cannot teach this uninherited talent to the child that we cherish. But when this mysterious spot is touched upon, it operates unconsciously, emerging from some unknown place. The mysterious nature of the mind with which all people are endowed is like this.
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Blair
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Blair »

Contemplations and ruminations on Visual Art and the mysterious nature of the mind...

[img]http://understanding_ocd.tripod.com/neuron.gif[/img]
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David Quinn
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

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Sphere70 wrote: The way Schopenhauer discussed what the great arts can do is as a way to reach a contemplative state and a vision of the life-force (Will) which prevails in everything - this is of course available everywhere at all time but it is not always that one sees that. It can work as a catalyst. Recognize! I addressed it because it has rarely been brought up here and it is another practical method.

Yes, as I've mentioned before, this sort of thing can be helpful in the beginning stages.

It's interesting that you couch the matter in this way. One of the reasons why I address (and emphasize) the issue of reasoning is because it is rarely brought up in the world. The world nearly always confines spirituality to the arts or to the generic religious industry, thereby divorcing it from reason and crippling it from the outset.

Sphere70 wrote: You are highly non-practical in your posts (you just wine on about where One should be to be Wise - and amazingly this is exactly where you yourself are - a throbbing and healthy Ego indeed). I'm getting more and more convinced that you truly are a British Academic with strict Christian influences, wearing a comfortable Zen-robe as diversion.

You mean I'm a bit like Alan Watts (before he dissolved into booze)? :)

If we're going to play the nationality game, I see myself as combining German efficiency with British comic surrealism. Monty Python with a clear purpose.

As for practicality, when a fireman rushes in to rescue people from a burning house, he acts with maximum efficiency. He issues clear instructions and urges people to remain focused on the task of getting outside. He doesn't give them pictures or read them poetry in the hope of giving them a little thrill.

Sphere70 wrote:
In the language of Zen, art is painting legs on a snake.
Your man-toy Hakuin was very, very, busy painting legs on snakes.
Well, he wasn't perfect. They didn't have TV back then!

Sphere70 wrote:
Nature constantly throws up artistic masterpieces of such depth and beauty that one can only marvel at the arrogance and blindness of artists.
And about the "philosophers" who constantly feel the need to reason about it and discuss it.

Academically, sure.

I also suspect that your 'marvel of arrogance' comes from you bitterly witnessing the artists of various kinds hogging the few, and in your eyes prestigious, 'stamps of Genius' that has been handed out during the times - and which lives on to this day.

You need to stop fretting over the label "genius". It's an empty word that doesn't really mean anything. It is only meaningful (and irksome) to those who take themselves too seriously. :)

Sphere70 wrote:
I take your point, although surely it speaks more to the mediocrity of most of the prose that exists in the world than to the nature of prose itself.
To write a great piece of prose is being a great artist. You - that write books - do you consider yourself a master of this art-form?
There is artistry in great prose, certainly. But the issue is not so much with "artistry" itself, but how the artistry is channelled. In my eyes, the more an artist optimizes his ability to awaken people to the Infinite, the greater he is. The more meaningful is his artistry. The wise are the greatest artists.

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David Quinn
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by David Quinn »

Sphere70 wrote:This one is for you David (I know you think you thought yourself into his position ,-)

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Caspar David Friedrich - The Wanderer Above the Sea of Fog (Painting)

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I like this one better:

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Alexis Jacobi
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Descensus Ad Inferos, No. 198759

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

The issue or question of art in respect to the formulations of GF is pretty apt. If one enters into the question, if one understand why art is thoroughly rejected, I think one will understand a great deal about the program and the goals of GF. First, to put on the table an interesting 'fact'. When confronted with various artistic works David's reaction was to refer to his cheap computer table, his writing desk, a cup of coffee, etc., and to say that this little still life held more for him than those artistic works which were to him dead and contrived. The sky, a plain, a mountain, the ocean, the stars---these are part of the fabric of reality that surrounds us and there is (obviously) no way that a mere work of art (painting, photograph, poem, novel, etc.) could compete. I have discovered that, to understand how numerous of the Gfers operate, you have to enter into their mental world, into the mechanics of their thinking, into what it is composed of, into the way that it is conducted, what is included and (very importantly) what is excluded. It might sound good, on the surface, to say 'I am only focused on One Thing and that One Thing is' [fill in the blank if you understand it] [Self-realization, realization of the Infinite, an experience of Self in the more yogic or Taoist sense or in Zen], but on closer examination one discovers that something is missing, some part of this desire and the 'realization' is flawed.

In the first place, each of those works of art represents and encapsulates extraordinary work on the part of the artist. A poem or a novel, for example, might express or reflect years and years of sweat, self-plunging, processes of discovery, great work on oneself, psychological and spiritual work. In the best cases such work is carried out in relation to and in response to all the great existential questions, in relation to the spiritual conceptions or philosophical issues of the day. Shakespeare as a poet and as someone who has plunged into the issues and problems of human life is an artist to be considered, thought about, felt, and not simply dismissed. Some say that the great poets are the ones who have opened up the human person, who have allowed for the expressions of what is human. In any case, the relation between art and spirituality, certainly in the West, is so intimate that they cannot be separated. Poets explore meaning and sense in very important ways, and they 'expand' that sense and those meanings.
  • Before the message, the vision; before the sermon, the hymn; before the prose, the poem. The discursive categories of theology as well as the traditional images of sermon and prayer require a 'theopoetic'. ---Amos Niven Wilder
Now for the sad part. Along comes a few uneducated, rather brutishly uneducated and uneducatable Australians struggling with some deep personal issues. They have no qualifications in so many matters of sensitivity and are in fact interested exclusively in cutting themselves off from whatever alive stems and roots are (left) inside them. They declare that 'emotions' and feelings are, in essence, diabolical and traps for a 'wise' individual, and with that bold declaration also violently shear away from themselves their own link with 'the feminine' and the 'female', their own heart, their own emotions and also the possibility or the reality of 'love'. This act is derived from their bad reading of a few works of philosophy (Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and a few others) and from a hard core need or desire to do away with the issue or the problem of being human, that is to say with all that is difficult and dark and problematic in that. It is hard to find the words to describe what they do and why they do it because, at least as I see it, is is so bound up in unrecognized psychological issues. But anyway, they communicate the sense that a person can make some sort of leap over all human issues or concerns and attach themselves to a New Real or a Greater Real: Ultimate Reality, the Infinite, etc.

It might sound good on paper but there are myriads of problems associated with it. But going back to the question of those works of art. The fact is David simply cannot see them. It is like his radar system or his eyes simply and literally cannot discern certain spectrums of light and so the image cannot appear in front of him. But he calls this 'selectivity' of vision 'wisdom' and 'spirituality'. Yet, to understand those works of art one has to grasp the connection between spiritual and 'human' processes and our life in this 'real world', not an abstract world or an idealized world. Because, as I can see, each of those works of art is intimately involved in these questions, and there is no doubt that each of those artists is dealing with such issues and questions in their work. But all that, you see, for some Australian peasants with brute-like minds, is inconsiderable. 'All that' is simply wiped off the table. It would be comparable to an arrogant, strong-willed European peasant who tosses a fine violin into the fire, or burns the scores of Bach sonatas and declaims: Well, these ain't really worth nothin' in the face of the present and my desire for heat! (Or something like that).

I am also convinced, but I really have no way to prove it, and can only suggest it, that the primary concern of David's 'spirituality' is essentially 'otherworldly', i.e. it does not have to do with this world but with an abstract world, an idealization. I am not incapable of seeing and understanding that a person may feel or does feel that they have found, inside themselves, an important and relevant source or well-spring. That idea or that fact is what feeds everything that has value and meaning in our world. But it is and perhaps should always be linked to, connected to, expressive of our whole selves: body, heart and mind. The best of the best in our own traditions, and the Christian traditions of the West deal on (essentially) Love and Action. Within this 'concern' arises almost everything that 'we' (excluding our local brutes) value and everything that has moved and transformed our world, to the degree this is possible in an intractable world. But GF does away with all that. It wipes it all off the table with one stroke of the arm. It does away with the fact and the problem of having a human heart, of having a tangible life to live in a tangible world. Basically it simply does away with everything, and the question is What is left? What sort of personal world would one live in as a result of performing this 'spiritual' act?

Obviously, there are many more questions than answers.

In the Western (Christian) traditions, we have a notion of 'liturgy'. The word liturgy is from the Greek and means 'work of the people' (leitourgia). The idea is obviously that of all manner of different activity as a call to action and as a response to and service of the Divine, and the divine ethical commands within the human world (Hebrew 'basar' and Greek 'sarz' refer to 'the flesh', the sphere of incarnation, with 'soma' as 'the body' and the form of that life: our very selves). The implications are very far reaching but (once again, so agonizingly again & again & again) our local dullards have no structure within their hollowed-out brains and souls for the merest glimmer of appreciation of what this might mean. The meaning encapsulated in the notion of service to or response to the Divine is as wide-ranging as your own human imagination and heart can make it. And the farther we take it, the more we bring meaning and value into our lives. Moving away from it, I suggest, we crawl back into a death-realm.

The widest implication of what this can mean is what interests me:
  • 'For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water'. Jeremiah 2:13
To propose some sort of 'realization' that is in fact the cutting off from one's own self, and a shrinking away from a full and living expression of self, is I suggest absurd and tragic.
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

A full and living expression of self, the absurd and tragic: it's perhaps in need of some visualisation! (story)

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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Jesus and the Art Form.

Jesus was born into the Worldhood of 'Ten Commandments'.

1 of the commandments dealt with desire.
That commandment was something about 'coveting thy neighbours property'.

Jesus took that 1 commandment and built Worldhood out of it.

He took 10% of the commandments and turned it into 90%.

It was a revelation of a new way of being that transformed people in the day.

It opened up a possibility for being in the world that wasn't greed and violence.

The possibility was 'Love thy neighbour'.

'love thy neighbour' is a 'who you are being in a world'

Who you are being in a World is your artistry.

A billion liturgies and mona lisa's resemble sludge in the light of that.
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Re: Descensus Ad Inferos, No. 198759

Post by David Quinn »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Along comes a few uneducated, rather brutishly uneducated and uneducatable Australians struggling with some deep personal issues. They have no qualifications in so many matters of sensitivity and are in fact interested exclusively in cutting themselves off from whatever alive stems and roots are (left) inside them. They declare that 'emotions' and feelings are, in essence, diabolical and traps for a 'wise' individual, and with that bold declaration also violently shear away from themselves their own link with 'the feminine' and the 'female', their own heart, their own emotions and also the possibility or the reality of 'love'. This act is derived from their bad reading of a few works of philosophy (Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and a few others) and from a hard core need or desire to do away with the issue or the problem of being human, that is to say with all that is difficult and dark and problematic in that. It is hard to find the words to describe what they do and why they do it because, at least as I see it, is is so bound up in unrecognized psychological issues.

As always in these conversations, every sentence is steeped in irony.

You've got the extreme nature of the enterprise right, but now you need to completely flip it over and invert the whole thing. It is you (along with the artists and the human race in gerneral) who is violently cut off from the living stems and roots inside them. That is what stands between us

And that, essentially, is where all art springs from. From the violence of being divorced from one's own self (one's true nature). Art seeks resolution to the consequences of this violence. It is both a product of the violence and the (ultimately futile) attempt to soothe the resulting pain and trauma.

A wise person who is in harmony with his true nature has no need to find resolution in things, and therefore has no need of art. Like a new-born babe, he is too pure for art, just as he is too pure for love and hate.

I realize that the "human heart" is held in such reverence in our culture, but in truth 99% of what constitutes the human heart is sheer nonsense. It rarely rises above the level of drug-addiction. Get a person addicted to heroin such that he has to struggle every day with his addiction - painfully experiencing the highs and lows of such a lifestyle, constantly having to find ways of acquiring the drug, constantly having to deal with criminals and other drug-addicts - and you have the perfect environment for creating art. The addict can express his frustration and pain through art. He can sweat blood and tears in his endeavour to create highly-nuanced stories which depict his hells. Other addicts can then praise his work and call him a great artist, a deep man. And yet, despite all this grand endeavour and mutual back-slapping, the whole thing remains in the realm of nonsense.

The only reason artists get away with it is because most of the human race are themselves drug-addicts and are always looking out for ways to soothe their own drug-induced hells.

To rise above drug-addiction isn't a violent act, as you so desperately want to depict. To be drug free isn't a case of being violently cutting off from human life or from one's humanity. Only a drug-addict could possibly see things in this way.

I am also convinced, but I really have no way to prove it, and can only suggest it, that the primary concern of David's 'spirituality' is essentially 'otherworldly', i.e. it does not have to do with this world but with an abstract world, an idealization.
Once again, invert this and only then does it become true. You are the one who is being "otherworldly" and lost in abstraction. And being so lost, it is doubtful that you will ever develop the strength of mind to know what this means.

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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

This is an attempt to extract the various points you have made and set them out clearly.
  • That self-knowledge, self-realization are extreme enterprises requiring extraordinary commitment and focus.
  • 'Artists', which in this context does not so much mean artists or an artist but all humans in society, are cut off from their 'well-springs' or the true well-springs, so in fact, you could appropriate the passage from Jeremiah into your own kerygma: 'They have committed two evils, they have cut themselves off from my well-spring and have hewed out within themselves a containment vessel that is leaky'. The illustration is actually pretty profound no matter who is claiming it, and from the look of it, though you would invert my application of it, we yet seem to agree: there are 'real' well-springs, there is a process of 'cutting-off' from what is vital, living and 'real', and there is something like constructing a 'cistern' within oneself which represents a strategem as-againt the 'true' source of life, represented by the symbol 'water'.
  • And we do seem to agree that something indeed 'stands between us'.
  • You say that art ('essentially' which could also mean entirely or even 'absolutely') arises out of the division within the individual between the 'real' source of life and 'life-as-reliance-on-cistern', which means a false and private source. And again it seems you could employ my preferred language in your own preaching: all artists (all humankind) 'shear off' from their vital selves and art is some sort of false satisfaction, a sad consolation prize, but more than that it is something people cling to and rely on because they cannot get to that 'true' and vital source (the living well-spring).
  • If I understand you correctly, art can only (apparently) 'soothe' some sort of longing or pain that results from the 'shearing off' from the real well-spring. But art in itself does nothing, can do nothing for the individual and by extension for humankind.
  • A wise person does not seek anything outside of himself that would offer what you are calling 'resolution' (to trauma or the 'violence' from having sheared off from the 'well-spring' from which all life arises).
  • The state of wisdom---if the metaphor of 'like a newborn baby' holds---is like a rebirth into a state of innocence and 'purity'. In that original state, there would be no attraction for any false palliative, such as art is according to your definitions. Art arises from the trauma of the rejection of the 'well-spring', is a violence against original nature, and when original nature is recovered (so to speak), there is no need of it.
  • According to your view all (99% is pretty much all) that is in the human heart is 'sheer nonsense'. All this 'nonsense' is held in the highest esteem by our culture. But one must ask a question here (because it is not clear). Is it what is in the heart that must be seen as 'nonsense' or the 'heart' itself? (Whatever this means, and we have no definition for 'it'). You say that this 'stuff' in the heart is like the drug of an addict and that the function of the heart 'rarely rises above it'. Therefore, people are addicted to emotional 'drugs' and like addicts crave certain 'hearty stimulations'. This addiction-cycle locks them in to the need of false nourishment from those false cisterns and keep them from knowing, feeling the real 'well-spring'. (We are still uncertain what relationship the 'true well-spring' has to 'the human heart', if for example this heart were purged of the 99% of false, drug-like material).
  • Having constructed this base, you go on to affirm that all art is, and all artists are, involved essentially in a false enterprise (again, this corresponds to 'they hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water'). You express it in this way: 'The addict can express his frustration and pain through art. He can sweat blood and tears in his endeavour to create highly-nuanced stories which depict his hells. Other addicts can then praise his work and call him a great artist, a deep man. And yet, despite all this grand endeavour and mutual back-slapping, the whole thing remains in the realm of nonsense.'
  • Your summation is a repeating of what you believe is my meaning: 'To rise above drug-addiction isn't a violent act, as you so desperately want to depict. To be drug free isn't a case of being violently cutting off from human life or from one's humanity. Only a drug-addict could possibly see things in this way.'
  • And finally, you invert another statement of mine, so that if I, in defense of art (as I have described it thus far), seem to value it, this is tantamount to being 'otherworldly' and 'lost in abstraction'.
I do have some things to say about this, naturally, but will let this sit for awhile.
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Sphere70
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Sphere70 »

One of the reasons why I address (and emphasize) the issue of reasoning is because it is rarely brought up in the world. The world nearly always confines spirituality to the arts or to the generic religious industry, thereby divorcing it from reason and crippling it from the outset.
I can't see how you can say in all honesty that the use of reason is the (only) way back to the natural state (Enlightenment). Reason being a process of logic with the tool of thought (basically talking to oneself) - which in its nature is dual and therefore limited in its outset.
The only way I can understand this is if you say that this is only for realizing that this tool is not the tool and that there is no other tool (a kind of 'hitting the wall') - it's then a very U.G. Krishnamurti'an way of speaking and of understanding the limits of thought in terms of the Tao in a much clearer way. Though I don't think this is what you're saying...
You mean I'm a bit like Alan Watts
Hehe, well - in reverse then.
If we're going to play the nationality game, I see myself as combining German efficiency with British comic surrealism. Monty Python with a clear purpose.
:) ok then: the bedroom-pondering of Hegel together with the humor from a Star Wars Boys-Club Reunion
As for practicality, when a fireman rushes in to rescue people from a burning house, he acts with maximum efficiency. He issues clear instructions and urges people to remain focused on the task of getting outside. He doesn't give them pictures or read them poetry in the hope of giving them a little thrill.
Wait... Are you putting yourself in the role of the fireman here? What are the instructions and where are the rescued? I want to talk to them =)
Well, he wasn't perfect. They didn't have TV back then!
Still you've posted a few of his imperfections on your site... Damn, I thought this was a site for the creation of utter perfection! I want my waffle-maker back.
You need to stop fretting over the label "genius". It's an empty word that doesn't really mean anything. It is only meaningful (and irksome) to those who take themselves too seriously. :)
My bad, I thought that it was an important definition around here (being that you gave it the name of the forum, that it's discussed in numerous post and that you have a link somewhere with (many) quotes about it).
There is artistry in great prose, certainly. But the issue is not so much with "artistry" itself, but how the artistry is channelled. In my eyes, the more an artist optimizes his ability to awaken people to the Infinite, the greater he is. The more meaningful is his artistry. The wise are the greatest artists.
Well, the artistry comes in with the way the wisdom is communicated - not as a stamp derived from wisdom itself. For example - both Ramana and Nisargadatta was both great artists in the way that they could communicate sharply, easily, inspirationally and highly practically about wisdom - and, more importantly, that they could address each questioner and seeker individually with different directions in terms of how they sensed their development and specific character.
U.G. was another great master in the art of communicating - but in a totally different way: successfully iconoclastic, aggressive in language but gentle and 'wu-wei'ish' in action, direct, poisonous/provocative in the right way (very important, this is one of the hardest art-form which many fail completely with) and honest.

Of course there are more, but these stands out for me - also for being contemporary's, which is of the value that they still has a clarity and availability in their so-called 'finger-pointing'.
And that, essentially, is where all art springs from. From the violence of being divorced from one's own self (one's true nature).
That is where all seeking begins. The philosophers, the artist, the religious man: the seeker in all his forms.

The artist becomes great in that he perfects his ability to communicate, and when it is about that which is often felt as incommunicable then he becomes a Great artist (be it in visual art, the spoken art, music or literature). This is why the Tao Te Ching might be considered the best and clearest writing on life and enlightenment. It's truly a great work of art.
Last edited by Sphere70 on Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sphere70
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Sphere70 »

I don't know why, but Blair reminds me of the little kid in Family Guy...
Sphere70
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Re: Visual Art as Contemplation

Post by Sphere70 »

Paintings by Gunnel Wåhlstrand

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Paintings by Max Ernst

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