Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment process

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby cousinbasil » Wed May 04, 2011 3:17 am

jupiviv wrote:About your whale example - if the whale did do all that because it didn't want the humans in its territory, why should it necessarily be proof of conscious behavior? Whales probably swallow their prey whole. The taste of the woman's suit probably didn't sit well with it.

Why then would it return her to the surface before releasing her?

I am not saying humans are no different from the other animal species. It would be arrogance to ignore the fact that much of our behavior is due to our animal nature, if that was one of your points. But I do not get your view that it would be arrogant to conclude animals have the capacity to be conscious/moral/rational because they exhibit some of tbe behaviors of human beings - even if such a conclusion were incorrect, it could hardly be called arrogance.

If minimizing one's potential for arrogance, I think it is better to admit that no human can possibly know what goes on inside the being of a creature from another species. I do not in any way think a person's consciousness is the same as - or the seat of - his soul. If it were, man would be a much more spiritual being.

But you seem ready to classify most people as unconscious in their behavior, so it is unsurprising you would reject any notion of rudimentary consciousness in other species. Why isn't this arrogance?

This discussion was motivated by what the consideration of what constitutes communication. If you are to be consistent in your view, 90% of phone traffic is not communication, because most of it is banal mindless chatter, not much different from Koko talking about her new cat. When I see a bonehead traffic move because the driver has a cell phone pressed to an ear, I am inclined to agree.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby jupiviv » Wed May 04, 2011 3:32 am

Unidian wrote:No sir, Mr. Quinn, KIR is not "spiritually dead." On the contrary, it is your outpatient ashram here which merits that description. A collection of assorted persons united primarily by the presence of one or more diagnosable personality disorders does not constitute "spiritual life." Rather, it constitutes a group of people who would perhaps benefit from the tender mercies of Nurse Ratchet, or at least a few years of less intensive treatment, perhaps with Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation rather than Transcendental Quinnological Masturbation.

At KIR, "spirituality" is defined not only in terms of the traditional Buddhist-Daoist-Zen teachings and other well-established and properly interpreted paths in the field of transformative psychology, it is also defined primarily in other terms which the spiritually-diseased, twisted, and malignant culture of the pathologically narcissistic "Genius Forum" abhors. Namely, those terms are compassion, kindness, love, and genuine human feeling, as taught by all authentic traditions which seek to actually relive the suffering to which we all find ourselves bound, rather than endlessly discussing meaningless and solely ego-serving intellectualizations long-since thoroughly established as meaningless and solely ego-serving by the very same Buddhist-Daoist-Zen traditions this forum fraudulently and tragically misrepresents. We all suffer, and therefore we are all bound together in the field of compassion, save perhaps those of us so thoroughly self-deluded as to have renounced the core of our humanity (and therefore the core of our suffering) due to the inherently sociopathic and intensely narcissistic force of pathological "complete enlightenment" fantasies which suggest a need for clinical treatment.


Wow, Mr. Unidian, I didn't read the entire of your post, but the compassion, kindness, love, and genuine human feeling you've managed to exhibit in these two paragraphs is overwhelming.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby jupiviv » Wed May 04, 2011 3:55 am

cousinbasil wrote:Why then would it return her to the surface before releasing her?


I don't know. My guess is that it's because the whale vomited her out. Whales breathe oxygen from the surface, so they probably vomit things out on the surface, because generally we need to breathe after we vomit.

But I do not get your view that it would be arrogant to conclude animals have the capacity to be conscious/moral/rational because they exhibit some of tbe behaviors of human beings - even if such a conclusion were incorrect, it could hardly be called arrogance.


It's arrogant because it assumes that all/most human behaviour is more or less conscious. Of course, the people who hold such a view probably don't have a clear definition of consciousness, so it's more a sign of ignorance rather than arrogance.

But you seem ready to classify most people as unconscious in their behavior, so it is unsurprising you would reject any notion of rudimentary consciousness in other species. Why isn't this arrogance?


Because I know exactly what I mean by the words "conscious" and "unconscious."

If you are to be consistent in your view, 90% of phone traffic is not communication, because most of it is banal mindless chatter, not much different from Koko talking about her new cat.


Ha! Nice analogy. Yeah, I think that most of what is called human communication has little to no rationality involved in it. My 13 year old niece has just received a brand new mobile(one of those crappy iphones) from her parents, and she's started sending me about a dozen smses every day, the contents of which basically center around what she is doing at the time she sends them - from playing with her rabbit to sitting down to do her biology homework.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby Blair » Wed May 04, 2011 5:02 am

jupiviv wrote:On a lighter note, did you know that William Shatner has met Koko?


That's funny, I just read a real story about a lower-primate having its breast groped by a homeless guy.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby cousinbasil » Wed May 04, 2011 6:27 am

You should know that iPhones are the state-of-the-art in mobile phones, at least for now. The story about your niece is great! Wait till she discovers Twitter. Now there's a modern day disaster. People somehow have this need to think they are famous, that their every thought is worth broadcasting - I see this as a further sign that many people somehow feel that TV is more real than they are, and along comes Twitter which instead of exposing the inanity that underlies the public persona of celebrities, encourages average nobodies to think that their every thought should not only be expressed, but sent to as many people as possible. I cannot think of anything more bleak than being worried about how many followers one has, or more ignominious than "following" (subscribing to the "tweets" of) Oprah or Charlie Sheen.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby jupiviv » Wed May 04, 2011 6:49 am

cousinbasil wrote:You should know that iPhones are the state-of-the-art in mobile phones, at least for now.


Bullshit. My Nokia E70 trumps any iphone by an immeasurable margin. It may not have all the la-la alternate keyboarding trendiness of the iphone, but it can do everything the iphone can and bunches more. Also, it doesn't require tapping one's fingers on a button for about a 100 times before it carries out its function.

I really loved the marketing they did for the iphone though. It can be summarized as - "it's an ipod! it's a phone! it's an internet communications device! However could it be all of those things at once?!! There's only one way to find out...buy it(after being cockteased by Apple for a few months)!"

Wait till she discovers Twitter.


She already has, but thankfully I haven't.

BTW, here is a better video of the pilot whale attack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D47wdwwYo94
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby Cahoot » Wed May 04, 2011 7:39 am

From what I observed, it appears the pilot whale was just playing.

Reasons:
- If it was attacking it could have killed the woman in an instant.
- Experienced people said the whales in this pod seemed playful.
- The whale turned his belly to the surface, which experienced observes said is a playful act.
- The whales eat only 30 pounds of prey a day, and nothing as large as a human.
- The whale quickly, even urgently, returned the woman to the surface, ending her danger.

If translated to an internet message board, the whale’s playful act would amount to no more than a sentence. If translated to an internet message board the speculation about the whale’s act would equate to threads of multiple postings from observers ... perhaps even a fearful, egocentric, blustery missive from one who bravely dares to enter the whale’s habitat, then scurries away.

*

On another note:
David Quinn writes one sentence.
Afterward, people reactively fume and speculate with thousands of words.

Awesome.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby David Quinn » Wed May 04, 2011 9:58 am

jupiviv wrote:
Unidian wrote:No sir, Mr. Quinn, KIR is not "spiritually dead." On the contrary, it is your outpatient ashram here which merits that description. A collection of assorted persons united primarily by the presence of one or more diagnosable personality disorders does not constitute "spiritual life." Rather, it constitutes a group of people who would perhaps benefit from the tender mercies of Nurse Ratchet, or at least a few years of less intensive treatment, perhaps with Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation rather than Transcendental Quinnological Masturbation.

At KIR, "spirituality" is defined not only in terms of the traditional Buddhist-Daoist-Zen teachings and other well-established and properly interpreted paths in the field of transformative psychology, it is also defined primarily in other terms which the spiritually-diseased, twisted, and malignant culture of the pathologically narcissistic "Genius Forum" abhors. Namely, those terms are compassion, kindness, love, and genuine human feeling, as taught by all authentic traditions which seek to actually relive the suffering to which we all find ourselves bound, rather than endlessly discussing meaningless and solely ego-serving intellectualizations long-since thoroughly established as meaningless and solely ego-serving by the very same Buddhist-Daoist-Zen traditions this forum fraudulently and tragically misrepresents. We all suffer, and therefore we are all bound together in the field of compassion, save perhaps those of us so thoroughly self-deluded as to have renounced the core of our humanity (and therefore the core of our suffering) due to the inherently sociopathic and intensely narcissistic force of pathological "complete enlightenment" fantasies which suggest a need for clinical treatment.


Wow, Mr. Unidian, I didn't read the entire of your post, but the compassion, kindness, love, and genuine human feeling you've managed to exhibit in these two paragraphs is overwhelming.

Not to mention that it speaks against the core of all Buddhism, which is leaving the world behind and transcending all suffering. They are so dead over there that they never know when they are undermining the Buddha's message or promoting it.

The compromised will always rail against what is uncompromising. That's a song which never changes.


Unidian wrote:I'll close on that magical word - friendship. It is one of many integral aspects of authentic spiritual life belittled and reviled here - but perhaps the one most tragically so. He who is without friends is without compassion, and he who is without compassion is without life - "spiritual" or otherwise.

"He who has compassion on his friends and confidential companions loses his
own advantage, having a fettered mind; seeing danger in friendship let one
wander alone like a rhinoceros. There is support and amusement in the midst
of company, and for children there is great affection; Although wishing
people well, one must wander alone like a rhinoceros. Having torn the ties,
having broken the net as a fish in the water, being like a fire not returning to
the burnt place, let one wander alone like a rhinoceros. They cultivate the
society of others and serve them for the sake of personal advantage; friends
without a motive are difficult to come by. Therefore, let one wander alone
like a rhinoceros."

- The Dhammapada
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby Blair » Wed May 04, 2011 11:06 am

What's most amusing at KIR, that playpen for the spiritually dead, is that they don't get A=A! Only the wise and enlightened get A=A, but they just bumble around like fools in the dark, never getting it, always missing the mark.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby jupiviv » Wed May 04, 2011 4:04 pm

Cahoot wrote:- If it was attacking it could have killed the woman in an instant.


Dolphins exhibit "playful" behaviour before killing their prey, like tossing it around, throwing it out into the air, etc - similar to many terrestrial predatory mammals. The pilot whale, like the killer whale, is a type of dolphin.

- The whale quickly, even urgently, returned the woman to the surface, ending her danger.


Actually, the cameraman speculated(in the vid I posted) that it may have held her under water for about a minute.

Unidian wrote:I'll close on that magical word - friendship. It is one of many integral aspects of authentic spiritual life belittled and reviled here - but perhaps the one most tragically so. He who is without friends is without compassion, and he who is without compassion is without life - "spiritual" or otherwise.


Without wisdom, compassion is like the water that spurts out of a fountain - good to look at, but useless.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby cousinbasil » Wed May 04, 2011 5:10 pm

The behavior didn't look especially playful to me, but Christ, how can you tell. Jup, your link is a little better. The way I initially saw the incident is how I see it now - the whale appears to take the diver to a depth, hold her there, then race her back to the surface. It seems purposeful (even porpoiseful), but I really didn't get a sense that the whale would do that to another whale - or any other creature - as in some kind of playful behavior. It certainly didn't look like an attempt to eat her, either. I think what happened is she freaked the animal out by touching it. The time she spent caressing it was "under a minute" and it looks like it dragged her down for about as long. It looks to me that the whale was saying this is what that just felt like.

Again, the whale could not reciprocate her petting, obviously. It is unlikely it had experienced such a thing before. Something of considerable size has suddenly invaded its space in a manner similar to the way one of its sexual mates might. To me, this dim-witted woman is actually molesting the thing. I wonder if she learned her lesson.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby cousinbasil » Wed May 04, 2011 5:12 pm

jupiviv wrote:Without wisdom, compassion is like the water that spurts out of a fountain - good to look at, but useless.
Unless you're thirsty.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby Blair » Wed May 04, 2011 5:38 pm

cousinbasil wrote:dim-witted woman


Oxymoron.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby jupiviv » Wed May 04, 2011 6:08 pm

cousinbasil wrote:I think what happened is she freaked the animal out by touching it. The time she spent caressing it was "under a minute" and it looks like it dragged her down for about as long. It looks to me that the whale was saying this is what that just felt like.


I think it just perceived the woman as some kind of fish.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby cousinbasil » Wed May 04, 2011 9:20 pm

Blair wrote:
cousinbasil wrote:dim-witted woman


Oxymoron.

Unless you have had an epiphany you haven't shared, perhaps you meant redundant.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby cousinbasil » Wed May 04, 2011 9:29 pm

jupiviv wrote:
cousinbasil wrote:I think what happened is she freaked the animal out by touching it. The time she spent caressing it was "under a minute" and it looks like it dragged her down for about as long. It looks to me that the whale was saying this is what that just felt like.


I think it just perceived the woman as some kind of fish.

I will refrain from any attempt at humor which could be taken as being misogynistic.

I can't agree with your assessment, however. No other kind of fish could have caressed it, which it seemed to have felt. Also, it seemed to know she required air.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby jupiviv » Wed May 04, 2011 10:40 pm

cousinbasil wrote:No other kind of fish could have caressed it, which it seemed to have felt.


You mean that no physical object ever brushed against it in its entire life up to that point?

Also, I used fish as a broad example of any of the many kinds of animals it is familiar with. Even if it didn't perceive the woman as an animal it was familiar with, there would be nothing stopping it from attacking it, or, to use the Cahootian terminology, playing with it.

Also, it seemed to know she required air.


It also seemed to know it was being filmed, which is probably why it didn't go for the cameraman after it released the woman.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby Cahoot » Wed May 04, 2011 11:01 pm

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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby cousinbasil » Wed May 04, 2011 11:09 pm

jup wrote:You mean that no physical object ever brushed against it in its entire life up to that point?

Did that really look like "brushing up against" to you? It looked more like the beginning of a make out session. Also, you may not have listened to the entire narration from the clip you linked to. I downloaded it so I could replay it a little more easily. The narrator related that Lisa, the diver, claimed she made sustained "eye-contact" with the whale prior to being grabbed. Not to read too much into this - which in any case we have already done - the whale encountered the diver on the surface and seems to have been aware that the surface is where she needed to be, much like itself, in order to stay alive (keep breathing.)
Even if it didn't perceive the woman as an animal it was familiar with, there would be nothing stopping it from attacking it, or, to use the Cahootian terminology, playing with it.

Yet it did neither.
It also seemed to know it was being filmed, which is probably why it didn't go for the cameraman after it released the woman

Yes it did seem concerned to keep its good side facing the camera.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby jupiviv » Thu May 05, 2011 3:21 am

cousinbasil wrote:Did that really look like "brushing up against" to you? It looked more like the beginning of a make out session.


Wild pilot whales aren't particularly familiar with the human caressing action.

jupiviv wrote:Even if it didn't perceive the woman as an animal it was familiar with, there would be nothing stopping it from attacking it, or, to use the Cahootian terminology, playing with it.
Yet it did neither.


So what in your opinion was the whale's action of grabbing her by the leg and dragging her down - a proposal for her hand in marriage? It would certainly explain why the whale made sustained eye contact with her.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby Tomas » Thu May 05, 2011 4:26 am

cousinbasil wrote:
jup wrote:
It also seemed to know it was being filmed, which is probably why it didn't go for the cameraman after it released the woman
Yes it did seem concerned to keep its good side facing the camera.

Very good, Basil. You win a cookie.

btw - Happy 2nd anniversary, Jup. You joined two years ago tomorrow.
May 5, 2009 - May 5, 2011.

Edited to change MAy to May ;-)
Last edited by Tomas on Thu May 05, 2011 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby jupiviv » Thu May 05, 2011 5:05 am

Tomas wrote:btw - Happy 2nd anniversary, Jup. You joined two years ago tomorrow.
May 5, 2009 - mAY 5, 2011.


Why thank you.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Thu May 05, 2011 6:37 am

jupiviv wrote:I think it just perceived the woman as some kind of fish.

Would it like fishsticks?

Anyway, are you saying here the whale birthed a concept of her being (like) his idea of a fish? Or did it just appear that way to another onlooker? Trick question! Apart from whales being mammals and not interacting with fish normally (these eat squid I believe), I'd like to ask if you are still maintaining that consciousness is merely conceptualization or "all concepts"?
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby jupiviv » Thu May 05, 2011 8:02 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Anyway, are you saying here the whale birthed a concept of her being (like) his idea of a fish?


No, I'm saying it sensually perceived her as some kind of marine animal. However, it's possible she smelled specifically like a fish to it(sorry Cousinbasil...couldn't resist!)

Apart from whales being mammals and not interacting with fish normally (these eat squid I believe)


The wikipedia article stated that they also eat fish.

I'd like to ask if you are still maintaining that consciousness is merely conceptualization or "all concepts"?


If "concept" is defined as "something that appears to mind", then yes.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Postby KillingMyself » Thu May 05, 2011 4:50 pm

This thread doesn't appear to be about Steven Norquist but I'll make a comment nonetheless.

I'm reading his book called Haunted Universe. I like his slightly dark approach. I have no idea if he is enlightened or not, since this brand of enlightened master and those like him i.e. U.G. Krishnamurti, Jed McKenna, Nisargadatta, etc. all say they don't identify with the character they're playing. We can all say that I suppose. How can you debunk it?

Anyways, Haunted Universe has some entertaining moments:
You have always been a mindless, soulless, animatronics character in Disneyland with music and dancing and singing and flashing lights and absolutely no one ever in the park to see or experience it.


He doesn't instill that hopelessness in me like U.G. Krishnamurti did years ago. I'm still searching for some material that will make me feel the utter meaninglessness of it all. In the meantime I took Norquist's recommendation on the works of Thomas Ligotti. Not as stark and empty as I'd hoped for though but it passes the time.
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